£408 fine for a £4.20 ticket

[Jack_Murphy]

I have received a letter from Manchester Magistrates Court advising I need to pay £408 by the 25th February or I could risk arrest and imprisonment. This is for not paying a £20 train fine I had received in September 2021. I had not paid this as I was appealing this I I had been fined unjustly. Previously to receiving the fine I had traveled from Patricroft train station to Manchester Piccadilly train station approximately 5 times in the previous 4 weeks. Each time I had bought my ticket at Piccadilly as I wished to pay in cash and there is no facility for this at Patricroft station. On each of these occasions I was sold a ticket with no problems and had never once been informed that I may receive a fine if I try and do this again in the future, so I continued to do this as I was under the impression there was no issue with this. I then made the exact same journey in mid September and was issued with a £20 fine for trying to buy my ticket in Piccadilly. I was attempting to buy the £4.20 ticket but the officer refused to sell it to me and fined me £20 for not buying a ticket in Patricroft. I explained that I was trying to pay with cash but he didnt want to know and advised me that there was a sign in Patricroft warning of this fine. I advised him there is not. I have since been to Patricroft station to re-check and can confirm there is no such sign at all, or anything to indicate that my actions of buying the ticket in Piccadilly could result in a fine. As I mentioned I was never once told this by any staff member either.

I mad an appeal through the penalty services appeal process and did not hear back from them so I assumed they had wiped the fine and uphelp my appeal. I have since received a letter the other week from the magistrates court, demanding I pay £408 by the 25th February, or I could face arrest and imprisonment. I checked my spam folder and found the reply for the penalty services that I had not seen until yesterday. They had advised my appeal had not been upheld as they had asked Northern rail, and northern rail had informed them that there is a sign in Patricroft to let me know about the fine, which is not true and is a complete fabrication.

I am now at the point where I do not know what to do or how to stop this. I cannot afford to pay £408 and want to have this appeal taken seriously and the fine wiped, IU would be happy to pay the £4.20 rail fair as I was happy doing the day I got the fine. Please can someone advise on what I should do next? I have wrote a letter to northern rail to make an appeal but I fear it may be too late. All help is very much appreciated, thank you.

 

[transportphoto]

Were you aware of the legal proceedings made against you prior to this letter? It would appear you’ve been found guilty of a criminal offence in your absence, you may find it helpful seeking independent legal advice.

 

[furlong]

There's a lot to unpack here, but two quick pointers: If you didn't know about the case, there's a process to unwind it involving what is called a 'statutory declaration' but you have to be quick to do this. But secondly, if you made a proper appeal that led to a decision, that introduces a legal bar against prosecution which the train company should of course have been aware of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were you aware of the legal proceedings made against you prior to this letter? It would appear you’ve been found guilty of a criminal offence in your absence, you may find it helpful seeking independent legal advice.

Agreed. It may be possible to have the verdict set aside and retried if you were genuinely unaware of the summons, which might also mean you have a chance to negotiate an out of court settlement. You won't get back down to the Penalty Fare level, but if successful it could get down to maybe £120 or so if lucky.

For future reference, if paying cash on Northern (only, no other TOC does it) you have to obtain a Promise to Pay "ticket" for free from the ticket machine. I'm surprised nobody told you that when selling you one in the past.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2022 ==

There's a lot to unpack here, but two quick pointers: If you didn't know about the case, there's a process to unwind it involving what is called a 'statutory declaration' but you have to be quick to do this. But secondly, if you made a proper appeal that led to a decision, that introduces a legal bar against prosecution which the train company should of course have been aware of.

Didn't think of that. How was the appeal made and can you prove they accepted it for consideration?

You would still have to get the verdict set aside, though, and then if you could prove that a retrial would go in your favour as there is a statutory bar (though realistically the TOC would withdraw it).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some further questions... Is there a ticket machine at Patricroft and if so, does it only accept card payment? Is the £20 "fine" a so-called penalty fare issued by Northern for not having a "Promise to Pay" voucher upon arrival at Piccadilly? Has the OP moved address since the date of the incident (September 2021) and not received correspondence? How was the PF appeal made? By e-mail? Would Manchester Magistrates Court have normally issued the OP with notice of the court hearing before the hearing took place, whenever that was?

 

[AlterEgo]

There's a lot to unpack here, but two quick pointers: If you didn't know about the case, there's a process to unwind it involving what is called a 'statutory declaration' but you have to be quick to do this. But secondly, if you made a proper appeal that led to a decision, that introduces a legal bar against prosecution which the train company should of course have been aware of.

These two points are vitally important to the OP.

The OP must submit a statutory declaration at once and then take stock.

 

[30907]

Some further questions... Is there a ticket machine at Patricroft and if so, does it only accept card payment? Is the £20 "fine" a so-called penalty fare issued by Northern for not having a "Promise to Pay" voucher upon arrival at Piccadilly? Has the OP moved address since the date of the incident (September 2021) and not received correspondence? How was the PF appeal made? By e-mail? Would Manchester Magistrates Court have normally issued the OP with notice of the court hearing before the hearing took place, whenever that was?

A quick look at photos of the station via Googlemaps shows a standard Northern ticket machine (presumably card-only) by the road and the standard PF sign displayed by the steps/subway. Note - Streetview pre-dates these.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These two points are vitally important to the OP.

The OP must submit a statutory declaration at once and then take stock.

Agreed. Otherwise the verdict stands whether fair or not. This is the only way to cause it to be revisited.

 

[Enthusiast]

You need to act quickly. When you say you received a letter "the other week", when was that, exactly? If you make your Statutory Declaration at a Magistrates' Court, the court must hear it if it is made within 21 days of you learning of your conviction and it may, at its discretion, hear it later. You may find that you have to wait a while for a free court slot to make your SD but provided you made your application within 21 days this should not present a problem.

The effect making an SD has is to void the proceedings where you were convicted in your absence as if they had never happened. Any penalties (fines/costs etc) are similarly set aside. The prosecution must then begin the court proceedings again.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please could you let us see the letter that you have received? Make sure you hide your personal details first!

The reason I ask is that it is very unusual for the first letter received to be giving the result of court action. But sometimes the letters have wording which isn't as clear as it should be. If we can see the letter, that will help us understand what is going on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is the machine at Patricroft card only?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the machine at Patricroft card only?

Very possibly. Quite a lot of the Northern TVM's that I've used at other stations are. Hopefully someone can confirm.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have received a letter from Manchester Magistrates Court advising I need to pay £408 by the 25th February or I could risk arrest and imprisonment. This is for not paying a £20 train fine I had received in September 2021. I had not paid this as I was appealing this I I had been fined unjustly. Previously to receiving the fine I had traveled from Patricroft train station to Manchester Piccadilly train station approximately 5 times in the previous 4 weeks. Each time I had bought my ticket at Piccadilly as I wished to pay in cash and there is no facility for this at Patricroft station. On each of these occasions I was sold a ticket with no problems and had never once been informed that I may receive a fine if I try and do this again in the future, so I continued to do this as I was under the impression there was no issue with this. I then made the exact same journey in mid September and was issued with a £20 fine for trying to buy my ticket in Piccadilly. I was attempting to buy the £4.20 ticket but the officer refused to sell it to me and fined me £20 for not buying a ticket in Patricroft. I explained that I was trying to pay with cash but he didnt want to know and advised me that there was a sign in Patricroft warning of this fine. I advised him there is not. I have since been to Patricroft station to re-check and can confirm there is no such sign at all, or anything to indicate that my actions of buying the ticket in Piccadilly could result in a fine. As I mentioned I was never once told this by any staff member either.

I mad an appeal through the penalty services appeal process and did not hear back from them so I assumed they had wiped the fine and uphelp my appeal. I have since received a letter the other week from the magistrates court, demanding I pay £408 by the 25th February, or I could face arrest and imprisonment. I checked my spam folder and found the reply for the penalty services that I had not seen until yesterday. They had advised my appeal had not been upheld as they had asked Northern rail, and northern rail had informed them that there is a sign in Patricroft to let me know about the fine, which is not true and is a complete fabrication.

I am now at the point where I do not know what to do or how to stop this. I cannot afford to pay £408 and want to have this appeal taken seriously and the fine wiped, IU would be happy to pay the £4.20 rail fair as I was happy doing the day I got the fine. Please can someone advise on what I should do next? I have wrote a letter to northern rail to make an appeal but I fear it may be too late. All help is very much appreciated, thank you.

It would help if you can be absolutely clear about what other written materiel you have had about this from Northern Trains (or any organisation acting on their behalf) from the point you were issued with the penalty at Piccadily Station.

Are you saying you received nothing between the message that you recently found in your spam folder turning done your appeal until you received a demand from the Court for the fine of £408?

You need to list out anything you have received, when it was (date), and ideally upload anonymised copies of it so that forum members can give you the best advice possible.

I suspect the reason your appeal failed is correct (there is in fact some signage, albeit it may be obscure) - but after that Appeal rejection response is this the 1st time you have heard from Northern, or the Court?

Did you give them your correct postal address to contact you? Or did you move address at any time since giving that address and now?

If this is the 1st time you have become aware of court action then if you can not afford a solicitor to help you you may be able to get help on how to make a Statutory Declaration from the Citizens Advice Bureau, or your trade union (if you belong to one) or students union if you are a student. I would get on to the case of doing this urgently (ie today) in an effort to 'restart the clock' and avoid the court action and it's higher cost of fines to you.

There is almost no chance of simply being allowed to pay the £4.20 fare now, and that being the end of it - unless you get the clock re started and can proove that there was no signage at Patricroft station on the day that you traveled - which I doubt you could proove now, were it to be true.

 

[ainsworth74]

If this is the 1st time you have become aware of court action then if you can not afford a solicitor to help you you may be able to get help on how to make a Statutory Declaration from the Citizens Advice Bureau, or your trade union (if you belong to one) or students union if you are a student. I would get on to the case of doing this urgently (ie today) in an effort to 'restart the clock' and avoid the court action and it's higher cost of fines to you.

Citizens Advice are unlikely to touch this with a barge pole. They deal with civil not criminal matters. They may have a pre-existing relationship with a local solicitor firm or separate funding to have solicitors in place but those arrangements are quite unusual so they're unlikely to be able to help beyond signposting to a solicitor firm.

I believe most solicitors can arrange for a Statutory Declaration and the fee for doing so is minimal.

 

[thejuggler]

Its not for the OP to prove there was no signage, its down to Northern to prove there was if they are relying on signage to bring the action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its not for the OP to prove there was no signage, its down to Northern to prove there was if they are relying on signage to bring the action.

If there was a PF appeal and the appeal was processed and rejected, Northern is statute barred from prosecuting. They can only use debt collectors and/or civil Courts to collect the PF and any costs of doing so (and this will need to be paid, and could be not dissimilar in magnitude to the figure already given, but won't involve a criminal record). Thus, the prosecution was brought wrongly IF the appeal was indeed processed (do we have proof it was?) - if it's set aside, a second attempt would fail if given that evidence.

BUT - it doesn't seem clear if the appeal was processed or if it was lost. If the appeal was not concluded, Northern could withdraw the PF and prosecute instead.

 

[WesternLancer]

Citizens Advice are unlikely to touch this with a barge pole. They deal with civil not criminal matters. They may have a pre-existing relationship with a local solicitor firm or separate funding to have solicitors in place but those arrangements are quite unusual so they're unlikely to be able to help beyond signposting to a solicitor firm.

I believe most solicitors can arrange for a Statutory Declaration and the fee for doing so is minimal.

I wasn't suggesting CAB help with the case, but they might, I would think, advise or help someone complete a Statutory Declaration from or give basic advice on that. But your points are of course helpful.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wasn't suggesting CAB help with the case, but they might, I would think, advise or help someone complete a Statutory Declaration from or give basic advice on that. But your points are of course helpful.

Mine wouldn't have and I'd be surprised if any of then would really.

 

[Trackman]

I have since been to Patricroft station to re-check and can confirm there is no such sign at all

There is one permanently attached to the brickwork on the left just before you go up the stairs or walk left through the subway, unless someone has ripped it off recently.

 

[WesternLancer]

Presume also that the OP should have been advised on previous successful attempts to buy a ticket with cash on arrival at Piccadilly that they should have had a 'permit to travel' from from the ticket machine at the origin station for this to be an acceptable request. It would seem that by not being told that the OP eventually 'ran out of luck' without knowing of this requirement, when meeting a member of staff who would not accept the request to pay by cash with the permit to travel.

This is assuming the machine at Patricroft will not accept cash payments, but will issue such 'permits'.

The absence of such a permit would presumably be the reason why the Appeal failed.

What we need to understand is then how that escalated to a court case.

Even if the OP has no further paperwork I assume the e-mail that was found in the OP's spam folder rejecting the appeal could be cut and pasted for the content to be considered by the forum.

 

[Hadders]

Patricroft has a card only Northern ticket machine.

It appears as though the OP has been found guilty in the Magistrates Court and that they were not aware of the proceedings. They should therefore seek legal advice and arrange to make a statutory declaration asap (it must be made within 21 days of becoming aware of the conviction). This will then reset the clock on the court proceedings.

 

[Watershed]

If there was a PF appeal and the appeal was processed and rejected, Northern is statute barred from prosecuting. They can only use debt collectors and/or civil Courts to collect the PF and any costs of doing so (and this will need to be paid, and could be not dissimilar in magnitude to the figure already given, but won't involve a criminal record). Thus, the prosecution was brought wrongly IF the appeal was indeed processed (do we have proof it was?) - if it's set aside, a second attempt would fail if given that evidence.

BUT - it doesn't seem clear if the appeal was processed or if it was lost. If the appeal was not concluded, Northern could withdraw the PF and prosecute instead.

There is no need for the appeal to have been determined for the statutory bar to come into effect - albeit the email the OP describes would suggest that a decision was indeed reached.

The appeals body has 21 days in which to determine an appeal. If no decision has been made by the end of this period, and the operator has not notified the appeals body that they have cancelled the Penalty Fare, the statute bar kicks in as if a decision had been made - see regulation 11(3)(b) of the Penalty Fares Regulations.

This effectively protects passengers against the appeals body being slow to respond to appeals. It is thus in the operator's interest to ensure that they appoint appeals bodies who will be able to determine appeals in time.

Either way, it is clear that Northern had no right to bring this prosecution. Accordingly, the OP hopefully shouldn't face great difficulty in having the proceedings terminated (or discontinued) - once they have made their statutory declaration.

 

[Enthusiast]

To be clear, the SD is only necessary if you have been convicted in court without you having been notified of the proceedings. You need to check that out.

If this is the 1st time you have become aware of court action then if you can not afford a solicitor to help you you may be able to get help on how to make a Statutory Declaration from the Citizens Advice Bureau, or your trade union (if you belong to one) or students union if you are a student.

You do not need legal assistance to perform an SD. If you perform it in court the court's Legal Advisor will see you through the process. You will need to complete this form:

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F973786%2Ftsm001-eng.doc&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK

All the process involves is simply swearing on oath that you knew nothing of the proceedings which led to your conviction.

I believe most solicitors can arrange for a Statutory Declaration and the fee for doing so is minimal.

Solicitors can actually hear your SD. They usually charge a nominal fee (perhaps £5-£10). The problem with this is that you will then have to deliver the completed document to the court. Better to make your SD at the court if you can.

 

[Elecman]

I wonder how the OP got through the barrier line to purchase his ticket from the Piccadilly Booking Office on the previous occasions

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I wonder how the OP got through the barrier line to purchase his ticket from the Piccadilly Booking Office on the previous occasions

Journeys from Patricroft to Manchester Piccadilly would probably mean using Platform 13 at Piccadilly. Wouldn't you then encounter multiple lines of revenue protection staff before getting anywhere near the main booking office?

 

[robbeech]

Some important points to consider.

* It’s unlikely that a member of staff who has no permission or authority to issue a penalty fare will tell a passenger about promise to pay, or about buying before you board. Infact, there’s a chance they don’t even know about these rules as it isn’t important to them. It’s poor, but it’s common.

* signage at Northern stations for penalty fares used to be hit and miss, although as far as I’m aware they’ve actually done quite well in fixing this. Unless anyone knows different for this station I suspect the signage is adequate or better so it’s unlikely this could be used as an appeal.

* promise to pay wasn’t in the penalty fare regulations, nor was it in the conditions of travel back in 2021 so there’s a significant argument to suggest it was unenforceable.

* if you made an appeal and have some way to prove this then essentially there should be no way of them prosecuting. However the rule about this has been known to be ignored before (though it’s unlikely to be frequent).

 

[island]

Solicitors can actually hear your SD. They usually charge a nominal fee (perhaps £5-£10). The problem with this is that you will then have to deliver the completed document to the court. Better to make your SD at the court if you can.

This has its plusses and minuses. If you make your SD at a court, you will generally be asked to lodge a plea to the charge straight away. Doing it via a solicitor and delivering it to the court then results in a fresh summons being issued, and gives time to arrange for the prosecution to be discontinued.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2022 ==

Either way, it is clear that Northern had no right to bring this prosecution. Accordingly, the OP hopefully shouldn't face great difficulty in having the proceedings terminated (or discontinued) - once they have made their statutory declaration.

This pre-supposes that the OP's appeal was made in accordance with the relevant appeal procedure and cited one of the four valid grounds of appeal. If either of those are not the case, then the bar to prosecution envisaged in regulation 11 does not kick in. Whilst I do note that the OP says they received a response rejecting their appeal, that does not imply that the appeal was competent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2022 ==

I have wrote a letter to northern rail to make an appeal but I fear it may be too late.

It is. This matter is now out of Northern Rail's hands as it has gone to the court system, and it is to the courts any communications you wish to make must be addressed.

 

[John Palmer]

Apropos the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations, a communication from the relevant appeals body to the effect that an appeal has not been upheld on the ground that signage forming the subject of the appeal was found to conform to the regulatory requirements must, I would have thought, conclusively establish that such appeals body treated the appellant as having satisfied the requirements of Regulation 16(2), and that consequently it was obliged to consider the appeal on its merits. Were it otherwise, you would expect the appeals body to inform the appellant that the appeal had not been accepted for determination because it failed to satisfy one or both of the Regulation 16 requirements.

Whether a bar to prosecution has arisen is subject to the additional complication that Regulation 11(3) refers to “a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) [who] has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16”. Since there is no sub-paragraph (a) in Regulation 11(1), it becomes difficult to establish the range of persons to whom Regulation 11(3) applies.

 

[island]

Apropos the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations, a communication from the relevant appeals body to the effect that an appeal has not been upheld on the ground that signage forming the subject of the appeal was found to conform to the regulatory requirements must, I would have thought, conclusively establish that such appeals body treated the appellant as having satisfied the requirements of Regulation 16(2), and that consequently it was obliged to consider the appeal on its merits.

If I treat a horse as a cow, it is still a horse.

 

[Trackman]

* signage at Northern stations for penalty fares used to be hit and miss, although as far as I’m aware they’ve actually done quite well in fixing this. Unless anyone knows different for this station I suspect the signage is adequate or better so it’s unlikely this could be used as an appeal.

See my post #19

Journeys from Patricroft to Manchester Piccadilly would probably mean using Platform 13 at Piccadilly. Wouldn't you then encounter multiple lines of revenue protection staff before getting anywhere near the main booking office?

It's a been a while since I've been but they were on the bridge on my last encounter.
Wasn't there a stand just before you exited (P9?) where you could buy tickets?