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Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

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rebmcr

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It should be possible to advise a driver to slow in advance of a signal so that as long as that they hit their new target speed when they need to that they then are able to pass through a non red signal without actually needing to stop. Even though it's currently red.

However the system would need to be smart enough of what's going on in the wider network.
Such a system (automated) is intended to be used for trains whose destination takes them through the Thameslink Core. That's to make sure they don't arrive out-of-sequence into tight 24tph headways.

It may well have already been activated, though with the pandemic's impact on driver training it would not surprise me to find it is still pending.
 
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Grumpy Git

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Despite what some on here and elsewhere say about cutting all the trees down, this will not solve all the problems. Leaves will find there way on to the railway from elsewhere.

I disagree; I have mature horse chestnut and cherry trees in my garden. I've lived here for 15 years and surprisingly, in all of those years, 95% of the leaves which fall in October/November are underneath the trees to which they were initially attached.
 

rebmcr

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I disagree; I have mature horse chestnut and cherry trees in my garden. I've lived here for 15 years and surprisingly, in all of those years, 95% of the leaves which fall in October/November are underneath the trees to which they were initially attached.
You can't possibly account for any that have blown away, unless you have meticulously counted them both on and off the tree. Looking at the pile underneath and declaring it "a lot" is plausible — 95% is not.
 

Starmill

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I would imagine it would depend on what the system was telling the driver.

For example it should be possible to advise a driver to slow in advance of a signal so that as long as that they hit their new target speed when they need to that they then are able to pass through a non red signal without actually needing to stop. Even though it's currently red.

However the system would need to be smart enough of what's going on in the wider network so that the driver's don't have to second guess that.

If you want a human check on the order of trains that could still be undertaken by the signaler, the driver could be told the wider picture. However I suspect that potentially more information than they need.
To be fair you're now describing automatic train operation essentially. If you're taking away the legal responsibility of the driver to stop the train in time your signalling system is driving the train. That's fine, but it's also obviously not really compatible with current professional driving standards to let your drivers still drive manually on a degraded premise. It's fine if you're advocating ATO network-wide, providing you accept the costs of that, but it's also not really something that is a sensible response to low rail adhesion is it?

Think of it this way. The status of a signal is usually unknown, but the driver can be provided with small individual bits of information one at a time as they go. You can't have any system where the driver cannot stop their train short of any signal signal that they don't know for certain is clear. So either you end up with trains that can stop shorter (which because of the laws of physics means very slow trains) or you devise something to give the necessary advance warning such as a four aspect colour light signalling system or an in cab display. But those require a defensive driving policy to be in place.
 
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Annetts key

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I disagree; I have mature horse chestnut and cherry trees in my garden. I've lived here for 15 years and surprisingly, in all of those years, 95% of the leaves which fall in October/November are underneath the trees to which they were initially attached.
Earlier on, I was clearing up after the recent storms. I found a piece of broken brown gutter. I have no idea where it came from. My house and the nearby buildings all have white coloured gutters…

A plastic window in our wooden shed got smashed. It’s in the garden. But I found parts of the broken sheet round the other side of the house, where we park the cars just off the road.

Some of the ’fruit/seeds’ I picked out of the hopper for the gutter on part of the roof were from a sycamore tree. I don’t have a sycamore tree. I don’t know where they came from…
 

LOL The Irony

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Very armature question, sorry, but in this sort of topology would catch points made any difference?
As others have said, it probably would've made things worse for the SWR train. The proper way to solve this would be to have a rolling plan of lineside vegetation management, ensuring RHTTs run during periods of low adhesion, improving sanding equipment and the fitting of some sort of blowers to trains to assist in removing rail debris. Of course, all of this will come at a large cost, especially the latter option.
 

alxndr

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I disagree; I have mature horse chestnut and cherry trees in my garden. I've lived here for 15 years and surprisingly, in all of those years, 95% of the leaves which fall in October/November are underneath the trees to which they were initially attached.
Your garden is quite likely to have fences or hedgerows, which will break some of the wind, lots of the railway is far less sheltered and so wind will blow leaves further afield. Look at how buddleia travels on the railway, and yet some people reasonably easily keep it contained to one part of the garden.
 

eman_resu

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I note that some previous posters have suggested that the driver should have started braking at SY29R.

Is this a 4 aspect or 3 aspect signalled area? Given the identification of SY29R as a repeater, is it there to simply provide advance warning of the state of SY29, and the braking distance configured for braking to a stop at SY31 from SY29? (If braking was required from SY29R, then whats the point of SY29?)

The signalling would also have taken into account any braking already required as part of the reduction in line speed from 90 to 50 mph 724 m from the junction.
 

bramling

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I note that some previous posters have suggested that the driver should have started braking at SY29R.

Is this a 4 aspect or 3 aspect signalled area? Given the identification of SY29R as a repeater, is it there to simply provide advance warning of the state of SY29, and the braking distance configured for braking to a stop at SY31 from SY29? (If braking was required from SY29R, then whats the point of SY29?)

The signalling would also have taken into account any braking already required as part of the reduction in line speed from 90 to 50 mph 724 m from the junction.

SY29R is a distant for both SY29 and SY31, it will display single yellow if SY29 is at danger, and double yellow if SY29 is off but SY31 is at danger.

It is this setup which I find a little undesirable, as it means the braking distance from SY29R to SY31 is over-braked. That’s a potential SPAD trap in itself.

SY29 is the junction signal onto the Laverstock Loop.

I can understand the view that the driver might have needed to maintain time, but equally it’s pretty undesirable to have a train pass a caution aspect and continue essentially at almost full line speed for a further mile. That’s before we factor in the poor adhesion.
 

edwin_m

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To be fair you're now describing automatic train operation essentially. If you're taking away the legal responsibility of the driver to stop the train in time your signalling system is driving the train. That's fine, but it's also obviously not really compatible with current professional driving standards to let your drivers still drive manually on a degraded premise. It's fine if you're advocating ATO network-wide, providing you accept the costs of that, but it's also not really something that is a sensible response to low rail adhesion is it?

Think of it this way. The status of a signal is usually unknown, but the driver can be provided with small individual bits of information one at a time as they go. You can't have any system where the driver cannot stop their train short of any signal signal that they don't know for certain is clear. So either you end up with trains that can stop shorter (which because of the laws of physics means very slow trains) or you devise something to give the necessary advance warning such as a four aspect colour light signalling system or an in cab display. But those require a defensive driving policy to be in place.
It could also be a driver advisory system, which as the name suggests advises the driver to do things like coasting when the train is running ahead of time rather than using energy to run at speed then have to brake. Connected versions of the system can take account of the positions of other trains and perhaps even of the strategy the signallers or automatic route setting systems will be using in the coming minutes. These systems should never advise the driver to do anything less restrictive than what the signals are instructing, so it wouldn't for example tell the driver that a signal they are braking for has now cleared so they can accelerate again. ATO or indeed ERTMS is a safety-vital system so could provide that sort of information.
 

Nottingham59

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Could someone explain the signalling layout that train 1F53 passed, please?

I'm trying to understand para 14: "Before reaching signal SY31, trains ... on the down main line pass signal SY29R and signal SY29, which are respectively 3,314 metres and 978 metres from the point of collision" and p21: "signal SY29R ...was showing a double yellow .... around 1,600 metres after passing signal SY29R and at 86 mph ... the driver made a step 2 brake application .. in accordance with his usual practice and was done with the intention of being able to stop the train at signal SY31, which was at this point around 1,500 metres away."

The sort of questions I have are: How can SY29R show a double yellow when it has only three lights (fig7)? Is it some sort of distant, with one green and two yellows? Can a driver see signal SY29 at the point where the brakes were applied? Or would this have been as a result of the double yellow passed a full 43 seconds previously? Why so long? Why is signal SY29R located so far away from the point at which a driver will start to brake? Why are the signals SY31, SY29 and SY29R irregularly spaced? What does "over-braked" mean in this context?

Thanks.
 

dciuk

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Could someone explain the signalling layout that train 1F53 passed, please?

I'm trying to understand para 14: "Before reaching signal SY31, trains ... on the down main line pass signal SY29R and signal SY29, which are respectively 3,314 metres and 978 metres from the point of collision" and p21: "signal SY29R ...was showing a double yellow .... around 1,600 metres after passing signal SY29R and at 86 mph ... the driver made a step 2 brake application .. in accordance with his usual practice and was done with the intention of being able to stop the train at signal SY31, which was at this point around 1,500 metres away."

The sort of questions I have are: How can SY29R show a double yellow when it has only three lights (fig7)? Is it some sort of distant, with one green and two yellows? Can a driver see signal SY29 at the point where the brakes were applied? Or would this have been as a result of the double yellow passed a full 43 seconds previously? Why so long? Why is signal SY29R located so far away from the point at which a driver will start to brake? Why are the signals SY31, SY29 and SY29R irregularly spaced? What does "over-braked" mean in this context?

Thanks.
From my understanding SY29R does not have a Red aspect as there as the previous signal is some distance away and you would not want a train under caution for that length of time, therefore this is in effect a delayed caution of the previous signal. That previous signal would only have a Red and Green aspect. The signal needs to be located at a distance to allow all trains that use the route to be able to stop from line speed before the next signal, therefore a driver would react differently to a double yellow than a single yellow and possibly differently with different types of rolling stock. As mentioned previously a class 159 DMU would have better breaking that some other rolling stock that could be used and the signal spacing needs to allow for the worse performing braking system. SY29 and SY31 are both positioned to protect different junctions, so it would largly be the points of these junctions that would dictate the spacing
 
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TheEdge

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The sort of questions I have are: How can SY29R show a double yellow when it has only three lights (fig7)? Is it some sort of distant, with one green and two yellows? Can a driver see signal SY29 at the point where the brakes were applied? Or would this have been as a result of the double yellow passed a full 43 seconds previously? Why so long? Why is signal SY29R located so far away from the point at which a driver will start to brake? Why are the signals SY31, SY29 and SY29R irregularly spaced? What does "over-braked" mean in this context?

The "R" at the end of SY29R stands for repeater, its a distant, hence why its SY29R, its repeating SY29, if it had a red it should be SY27. You are right with the aspects it can display. Looking at the maps I would doubt the driver could see SY29, there is no expectation you'll be able to see your next signal like that. You get a double yellow, you drive expecting the next signal to be yellow.

Signalling is designed to account for the worst braking train at the time of installation. Presuming this is an old installation that's probably linked to something like Speedlink freights or old block braked hauled stock. So newer or improved performance units like a 159 with WSP and disc brakes will not need anything like the full braking distance.
 

John R

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The "R" at the end of SY29R stands for repeater, its a distant, hence why its SY29R, its repeating SY29, if it had a red it should be SY27. You are right with the aspects it can display. Looking at the maps I would doubt the driver could see SY29, there is no expectation you'll be able to see your next signal like that. You get a double yellow, you drive expecting the next signal to be yellow.

Signalling is designed to account for the worst braking train at the time of installation. Presuming this is an old installation that's probably linked to something like Speedlink freights or old block braked hauled stock. So newer or improved performance units like a 159 with WSP and disc brakes will not need anything like the full braking distance.
Salisbury was resignalled in 1981, and the Laverstock loop reinstated then too, IIRC to enable diversions during a period of considerable work in Southampton Tunnel (which I presume would have included container traffic for the Western Docks?).
 

Taunton

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For example it should be possible to advise a driver to slow in advance of a signal
Of course, this is something air traffic control cracked in its earliest times, telling aircraft pilots by radio "aircraft xxx, minimum approach speed, one to depart ahead", and such like. It doesn't replace fixed instructions, but just adds to them.
 

furnessvale

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Sadly the report is silent about that.
There was also concern about sliding while braking on contaminated rail when disk brakes first came in. The goo gets rolled onto the rail head and also onto the wheels causing a loss of adhesion. This doesnt happen with tread brakes as the brake cleans the wheels. While I would not want to go back to tread brakes, maybe something is needed to clean the wheels.
Another issue is the improved bogie/wheel design. We dont see hunting* now. But hunting cleaned the wheels/railheads.

*This is where the bogie 'hunts' from side to side as the wheel/rail interface is unstable. The side to side hunting was thought to clean railheads.
That "something" is conditioning brake blocks well known within the industy. A single brake block per wheel is applied at reduced pressure when the brakes are applied. Sufficient pressure is used to clean the wheel without wearing the block. This block also maintains track circuit continuity.

Sadly, each new generation of rolling stock designers forgets the lessons of history and removes those "unnecessary" extra blocks. Class 158 was one such design.
 

pompeyfan

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That "something" is conditioning brake blocks well known within the industy. A single brake block per wheel is applied at reduced pressure when the brakes are applied. Sufficient pressure is used to clean the wheel without wearing the block. This block also maintains track circuit continuity.

Sadly, each new generation of rolling stock designers forgets the lessons of history and removes those "unnecessary" extra blocks. Class 158 was one such design.

GWRs 158s appear to have something like that. When I watched one depart I saw something that looked like a brake block retract at the same time the brakes were released.
 

LowLevel

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That "something" is conditioning brake blocks well known within the industy. A single brake block per wheel is applied at reduced pressure when the brakes are applied. Sufficient pressure is used to clean the wheel without wearing the block. This block also maintains track circuit continuity.

Sadly, each new generation of rolling stock designers forgets the lessons of history and removes those "unnecessary" extra blocks. Class 158 was one such design.
Class 158s have scrubber blocks. I think some fleets might have had them removed in the past but I think they've been reinstated some time ago?
 

etr221

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One of the questions that occurs to me, to which I haven't seen an answer, is when was the previous time a train had to stop at signal SY31? or received a caution (yellow or double yellow) at SY29R? Had it been earlier that day? How had it got on? (Perhaps the specific question is - had a driver had a caution at SY29R, and breathed a sigh of relief at finding SY31 clear?)

Perhaps more generally, is there an instruction as to whether drivers should inform signallers or controllers if they find their train affected by poor rail head condition, and how this should be disseminated?
 

Surreytraveller

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One of the questions that occurs to me, to which I haven't seen an answer, is when was the previous time a train had to stop at signal SY31? or received a caution (yellow or double yellow) at SY29R? Had it been earlier that day? How had it got on? (Perhaps the specific question is - had a driver had a caution at SY29R, and breathed a sigh of relief at finding SY31 clear?)

Perhaps more generally, is there an instruction as to whether drivers should inform signallers or controllers if they find their train affected by poor rail head condition, and how this should be disseminated?
Drivers are required to advise the Signaller, and the Signaller will caution the next train who will report the findings
 

furnessvale

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Class 158s have scrubber blocks. I think some fleets might have had them removed in the past but I think they've been reinstated some time ago?
GWRs 158s appear to have something like that. When I watched one depart I saw something that looked like a brake block retract at the same time the brakes were released.
As built, I believe 158s did not have conditioning blocks. Retro fitting may have corrected that mistake. I have not looked in detail at more modern builds to see which have, or have not, repeated that mistake.
 

norbitonflyer

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Absolutely not useful. You should always drive to what the signals are showing, without second guessing what they're going to do. That's how you end up with SPADs - 'this is always a single yellow then when I go round the corner the next signal has always cleared to green so I won't have to stop' - except the time it doesn't and you pass that signal at red.
But drivers do second guess the signals. That is exactly what happened at Colwich, where the driver assumed the signal was at red for approach control purposes (i.e to limit the speed over the junction) rather than because a conflicting move had been set up. In that case, had the driver known the latter was the case, he would been expecting to stop rather than just reduce speed, and would not have been caught by surprise when the signal did not clear.

Likewise, at what used to be my local station in the days of slam door stock, non-stop trains expecting to take the right hand branch after the station would stop short of the platform if the driver could see an approaching train crossing ahead of him, as he would not want to stop in the platform as the train would then be delayed by opportunistic passengers who could read headcodes (odd for the city, even for the west end) jumping on board for a fast trip to London and the driver would have to wait for the guard to give a right away before he could proceed. That strategy would not work if the line was clear, because the approach control system would not clear the signal until the train was halfway down the platform. I witnessed some abrupt stops when drivers realised the signal was not going to clear, although I must stress they never exceeded a speed at which they could stop.
 

Towers

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As built, I believe 158s did not have conditioning blocks. Retro fitting may have corrected that mistake. I have not looked in detail at more modern builds to see which have, or have not, repeated that mistake.
Indeed, was that not the reason that they ran around as hyrbids bolted to half of a 156 for a while when first delivered? Failure to reliably operate track circuits due to wheel contamination rings a bell?
 

Tramfan

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You can't possibly account for any that have blown away, unless you have meticulously counted them both on and off the tree. Looking at the pile underneath and declaring it "a lot" is plausible — 95% is not.
Presumably the trains themselves contribute to moving the leaves around as they go, there certainly seems to be considerable amounts of leaves near the tracks in the tunnel stations on the lines near me during the autumn
 

O L Leigh

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That "something" is conditioning brake blocks well known within the industy. A single brake block per wheel is applied at reduced pressure when the brakes are applied. Sufficient pressure is used to clean the wheel without wearing the block. This block also maintains track circuit continuity.

Sadly, each new generation of rolling stock designers forgets the lessons of history and removes those "unnecessary" extra blocks. Class 158 was one such design.

The issue with the Cl158s as built was that they could not always be relied upon to activate track circuits due to issues wheel/rail contamination. Various mitigations were put in place to prevent this from happening until they could be fitted with Track Circuit Actuators/Assisters (TCAs), which is something you will now find on all DMU classes.

Issues with wheel contamination affecting adhesion on disc-braked units were already well known prior to the introduction of the Cl158s, and was something that was grappled with in the subsequent decades. Through experience, the introduction of automatic sanders, RHTTs and less ambitious brake cylinder pressures, the industry has got to a point where certain routes that were undriveable before have become a lot safer and the service more predictable.

I await the RAIB's findings with interest.

Which should be strongly discouraged

It is.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I dont want to gar OT as there is already a thread on Network vegetation but-----

1) RAIB report - low adhesion - leaves - trees by line bad

2) The latest RAIL magazine has a great article published anonymously by a FOC driver. Trees by line bad

3) Latest bad weather where trees disrupt everything badly --- Trees by line bad.

I really hope and pray that attention is finally paid.
 

Tomnick

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But drivers do second guess the signals. That is exactly what happened at Colwich, where the driver assumed the signal was at red for approach control purposes (i.e to limit the speed over the junction) rather than because a conflicting move had been set up. In that case, had the driver known the latter was the case, he would been expecting to stop rather than just reduce speed, and would not have been caught by surprise when the signal did not clear.
It wasn't quite like that. The driver has misunderstood the meaning of the flashing yellow sequence approaching the junction, believing that the flashing yellows indicated that the route was set right through the Colwich Junction area as a whole rather than just the fast/slow crossover - he was surprised to find CH23 signal at danger but understood that it was part of the design and that it would certainly clear as he approached.

I asked Shaw if he understood what the flashing Yellow aspects approaching Colwich meant. He stated that, as at Norton Bridge, he thought that the flashing Yellow aspects took him not only from the Down Fast line to the Down Slow line, but through Colwich Junction onto the Down Manchester line. When he received a steady Yellow aspect at Signal CH28 he thought "They have altered it, it is different from Norton Bridge and they must still have the track approach". He knew he was entitled to go through the crossover at 45 mile/h and therefore braked down to 40 mile/h. Signal CH28 did not change from its single Yellow aspect as he passed it, but he still believed that the junction signal, CH23, which was displaying a Red aspect, first as he approached the banner repeater and then as he approached the actual signal would change from Red to a proceed aspect as the approach release cleared. When he realised that the Red aspect was not going to clear, he made an emergency brake application at a point some 40 yards before the signal, or 300 yards from the junction.

49. Shaw admitted that his trouble, in addition to failing to study the notices outlining the alterations to the signalling at Colwich, was that he believed that the arrangement was similar to that at Norton Bridge and that the flashing Yellow aspects meant that the line was clear for him to proceed through the junction onto the Down Manchester line. I asked Shaw why, having received a single steady Yellow at Signal CH28 which did not clear to a less restrictive aspect as he passed it, he had any reason to expect Signal CH23 to clear from Red and allow a clear run across the switch diamonds to the Down Manchester line. He replied that on every occasion when he had encountered flashing Yellow aspects, he had never encountered a Red aspect. He accepted that, having passed Signal CH28 at a steady single Yellow aspect, he passed the banner repeater for signal CH23 in the 'On' position and then, despite his emergency application of the brake some 40 yards before Signal CH23, be passed the signal at Danger.

From https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Colwich1988.pdf

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could someone explain the signalling layout that train 1F53 passed, please?

I'm trying to understand para 14: "Before reaching signal SY31, trains ... on the down main line pass signal SY29R and signal SY29, which are respectively 3,314 metres and 978 metres from the point of collision" and p21: "signal SY29R ...was showing a double yellow .... around 1,600 metres after passing signal SY29R and at 86 mph ... the driver made a step 2 brake application .. in accordance with his usual practice and was done with the intention of being able to stop the train at signal SY31, which was at this point around 1,500 metres away."

The sort of questions I have are: How can SY29R show a double yellow when it has only three lights (fig7)? Is it some sort of distant, with one green and two yellows? Can a driver see signal SY29 at the point where the brakes were applied? Or would this have been as a result of the double yellow passed a full 43 seconds previously? Why so long? Why is signal SY29R located so far away from the point at which a driver will start to brake? Why are the signals SY31, SY29 and SY29R irregularly spaced? What does "over-braked" mean in this context?

Thanks.
To add to the other answers...

This is a relatively common arrangement at the transition from either 2- or 3-aspect signalling to 4-aspect signalling, but is frowned upon for new installations nowadays. SY29R acts as the distant signal for SY29 (which it's at braking distance from), but also effectively as an outer distant for SY31 (which isn't at braking distance from SY29). It's "overbraked" for SY31 because it has to have full braking distance to SY29 (when it's showing single yellow) and therefore it has considerably more than the braking distance to SY31 (double yellow). The obvious risk is that a driver passes SY29R at double yellow but doesn't react immediately because there's plenty of room, then becomes distracted and doesn't start braking until it's too late (I'm certainly not suggesting that that's what happened here!).

The preference nowadays would be to insert an additional distant signal in the sequence, thus SY29R would become SY29RR (capable of displaying YY/G), followed by a new SY29R (Y/YY/G) at braking distance from SY31. That would have given the driver less warning of SY31 being at danger though. The question for me is whether the driver identified how poor the railhead conditions were, and whether he'd have braked earlier (taking advantage of that 1600m extra distance!) if he'd been aware that the RHTT hadn't run.
 
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