Gatwick Express stock

[MCR247]

Shame 460s can't be converted to AC

 

[Failed Unit]

...especially with DMUs working on "100% electric" services and many routes (around the UK) crying out for capacity... bonkers.

I wonder if they could be useful on SWT without conversion, maybe off peak Weymouths / Portsmouths to get the 158 / 159 diagrams that never venture away from the 3rd rail with EMUs so the DMUs can go somewhere they are needed!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Rail 660 implies that they are destined for SWT...

 

[tbtc]

I wonder if they could be useful on SWT without conversion, maybe off peak Weymouths / Portsmouths to get the 158 / 159 diagrams that never venture away from the 3rd rail with EMUs so the DMUs can go somewhere they are needed!

Would be great if that did happen - there are a few TOCs who could do with more 158s (as we all know)

 

[MCR247]

They may be going to SWT if Porterbrooks goes ahead. Or LM could lose some /1s and they go to SWT.

 

[TomJ93]

LM seem to have more than enough 350s, plenty are left sat in sidings throughout the day i've noticed (does anybody know how many LM need for their current service level?) Sadly that would mean many more services would be run with /2s.

 

[MCR247]

They would get new stock to replace them, and most of it is used in the peaks. Have you seen the amount of 450s left near Clapham and 377s used on pointless runs in the day, but by night they are needed for peak services.

The thing with London, is it needs a huge amount of peak trains, but not so many off peak

 

[Ministry]

Could SWT run them as a Southampton Airport express service? At least that way they could get some mileage out of the baggage containers and put some extra carriages on the 458s.

 

[MCR247]

Not really much point I don't think? The SWT proposal was to put a 460 coach into 458s and then make 5 car sets using rebuilt cabs with what is left over

 

[Pumbaa]

The new Railway mag suggests there are a few remaining 46o diagrams. Does anyone know the current state of play and whish services are likley yo be operated by 460s

Thinking about riding the 460s next Wednesday (5th January).

2 daily diagrams till March, with 3 on-lease. From March, they're all gone.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The 377s really need 2+2 throughout for this route. I have used the on thameslink and they are a bit cramped. The 460s really need more coaches if they were to stay. I think diagramming would be hard as well with only 8 units. 442s should really be on the portsmouth line.

I don't think they were any good for the Portsmouth line but probably more suited to the Weymouth line.

I see they are being used on the London Victoria to Brighton line....is that hilly as well?

All I saw yesterday was 442's which is nice to see really.No sign of the 460's.Not that I dislike 460's im just hoping SWT get them.

 

[ChampsRacing]

Currently swt are awaiting confirmation from dft on the decision of the 460s to us as what we had told in our fleet report recently. As for diagrams, first few weeks there was about 80% 442s out and 20% 460s, 460008 was out yesterday. I know there is a set of empties to gatwick that the 460s was working to come into service at 13+30 of Stewarts Lane but since im on lates currently i havent been able to see if they still are on that service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not really much point I don't think? The SWT proposal was to put a 460 coach into 458s and then make 5 car sets using rebuilt cabs with what is left over

In fact, the SWT proposal, as shown in the OJEU tender document, was actually for:

"Supply of electric suburban passenger railway stock (with options for maintenance) compatible with existing trains on the Wessex, Sussex and Kent Routes of Network Rail."

and later on "120 to 180 vehicles (20 metre) to operate in 5 car formation. (or approx. 100 m length equivalent)."

So, what they actually wanted was between 24 and 36 additional 5 car sets.

Porterbrooks proposal in response to merge the 460s into the 458 fleet provides only around half of the lower number asked for by SWT, so I think it might be only a partial solution. Which also explains all the rumours in the rail mags about transferring 456s as well, to make up the numbers. I reckon this is based purely on speculation that the fleet is about the right size, numbers wise, ignoring the fact they seem to be on lease with SN...

 

[Ministry]

Can the baggage vans be converted to full passenger accommodation or will they just end up rotting somewhere? If not, I guess a new fleet of de-icers/sandite wagons could be made out of them .

 

[MCR247]

In fact, the SWT proposal, as shown in the OJEU tender document, was actually for:

"Supply of electric suburban passenger railway stock (with options for maintenance) compatible with existing trains on the Wessex, Sussex and Kent Routes of Network Rail."

and later on "120 to 180 vehicles (20 metre) to operate in 5 car formation. (or approx. 100 m length equivalent)."

So, what they actually wanted was between 24 and 36 additional 5 car sets.

Porterbrooks proposal in response to merge the 460s into the 458 fleet provides only around half of the lower number asked for by SWT, so I think it might be only a partial solution. Which also explains all the rumours in the rail mags about transferring 456s as well, to make up the numbers. I reckon this is based purely on speculation that the fleet is about the right size, numbers wise, ignoring the fact they seem to be on lease with SN...

The 456 plan is for inner-suburban isn't it? I was told it was a seperate project to 458s?

 

[swt_passenger]

The 456 plan is for inner-suburban isn't it? I was told it was a seperate project to 458s?

Yes, but what I'm suggesting is that we have no way of knowing if there even is such a project. IMHO it's only ever seemingly been mentioned in rail mags because the numbers fit, but you'd need double the number of 456s to augment all the 455 services to 10 cars, just like you'd need loads more 450 cars to run all suburban services at 10 car length, both of which remain live projects according to NR.

What I'm thinking is that approx 60 x 460 cars and 48 x 456 cars only goes half way towards each of the two requirements - assuming there really are two projects.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, but what I'm suggesting is that we have no way of knowing if there even is such a project. IMHO it's only ever seemingly been mentioned in rail mags because the numbers fit, but you'd need double the number of 456s to augment all the 455 services to 10 cars, just like you'd need loads more 450 cars to run all suburban services at 10 car length, both of which remain live projects according to NR.

What I'm thinking is that approx 60 x 460 cars and 48 x 456 cars only goes half way towards each of the two requirements - assuming there really are two projects.

Well, there's definitely at least one project. The strengthening of the 458's to 5 cars using 460's has been with the DfT for ages and they still can't make up their minds. Presumably this is why the 458's aren't yet having a repaint during their C6 overhauls?

 

[ladydsm]

Thats only at the weekend and i havent seen a full 5car pig going to gatwick even in the holiday rushes

well you were not about between boxing day and new year then when they were so full people had to be left at victoria.

 

[Pumbaa]

It was due mid September, then mid October... now we're up to mid January and doubtless it'll get pushed aside again! According to DfT, these two projects, the LM 350 order (including for TPE Scotland as a new franchise) and Northern EMU scheme are still on!

 

[pendolino]

well you were not about between boxing day and new year then when they were so full people had to be left at victoria.

It's not an entirely valid comparison though, given that very little was running out of Vic due to the bridge replacement at Pouparts Jcn, which meant that what few services were running (half hourly to East Croydon & Gatwick and hourly to Brighton) were absolutely packed.

 

[Traindesign]

I was a type test engineer on the 460's in 99-2002 when we were introducing them, they are now a well sorted and reliable EMU, what a shame to split them up at all but to put them into a 458 (which i also commishioned) is an insult !!! Its a real sham engineers dont run our railways instead of accountants !!!

 

[Failed Unit]

I was a type test engineer on the 460's in 99-2002 when we were introducing them, they are now a well sorted and reliable EMU, what a shame to split them up at all but to put them into a 458 (which i also commishioned) is an insult !!! Its a real sham engineers dont run our railways instead of accountants !!!

That could be argued with all businesses.

If you invest x now you will get y and z. No we will go with the cheap option.

2 years later we need y and z why does it cost so much? Because mr accountant we didnt install it a day 1 because you said we could afford it now it has cost us 3 times as much.

Yes I am an engineer as well. We over engineer everything.

 

[tbtc]

I was a type test engineer on the 460's in 99-2002 when we were introducing them, they are now a well sorted and reliable EMU, what a shame to split them up at all

They may be reliable, but they are a small non-standard class which sounds like a headache to integrate elsewhere. They were suited to Gatwick Express duties, but as that is gradually downgraded there is less need for a specific fleet (and the design of them means they aren't too suited to anything else without alterations).

The specification was fine for a stand alone franchise in the short term, but trains last a long time and designing one small class specifically for one route will always cause problems when allocations change.

Putting them into 458s at least makes them relatively "normal"

 

[TheWalrus]

If 458s went to 5car, this would be a prob at Reading where 4a/b only just manage an 8car! How much we looking at to convert a 460 to ac? or electrify North Downs and use them there! these trains have endless potential I believe...

 

[MCR247]

They would be used on Windsor runs, 450s would run Readings. They aren't needed for AC so pointless question, and I don't quite understand the 'endless potential'

 

[Juniper Driver]

If 458s went to 5car, this would be a prob at Reading where 4a/b only just manage an 8car! How much we looking at to convert a 460 to ac? or electrify North Downs and use them there! these trains have endless potential I believe...

Eh? AFAIK 4a and 4b is being done away with.

Not sure how the new layout is but I would suspect longer platforms but with the railways you can never tell.

 

[MCR247]

10 car 458s wouldn't be for Reading anyway.

 

[Anvil1984]

Eh? AFAIK 4a and 4b is being done away with.

Not sure how the new layout is but I would suspect longer platforms but with the railways you can never tell.

Platforms 4a and 4b will be re-numbered and lengthened, they will still exist in pretty much current place though, this is what is on railnews going back to when it was announced

Platforms 4a and 4b, which will be renumbered 6 and 5 respectively, are to be lengthened for 12-car trains and a new platform, 4, will also be constructed adjacent to the Apex Plaza building. This, and the platform extensions, will require the construction of a new railway bridge over the Reading Inner Distribution Road.

The present platform 4 will be renumbered 7, while the present platforms 5 and 8 will become numbered 8 and 9. The present platform 10 will retain its identity but it will be expanded into an island, and the new face will be numbered 11.

Beyond this, four new platforms—12-15—will be created

source http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2008/09/10-reading-station-boost.html

Now I dont now what will open when but hope this helps

 

[Goldfish62]

If 458s went to 5car, this would be a prob at Reading where 4a/b only just manage an 8car! How much we looking at to convert a 460 to ac? or electrify North Downs and use them there! these trains have endless potential I believe...

There seems to be a lot of confusion over the proposal. Here's what's proposed:

Porterbrook's proposal is for 28 5 car 458s which would replace all 28 450/5s on Windsor, Hounslow loop and Weybridge services. The 450/5s would be converted back to standard 450/0s and Reading line services would revert to all 450 use. This proposal, together Siemen's rival scheme for more coaches for the 450s, is still with DfT pending approval.

The part of the scheme that is committed in CP4 is NR's platform extensions to cover the above services.

As yet there are no firm proposals for 10 cars on the rest of the SWT inner suburban, although this and 10 car platfrom extensions for Longcross to Earley do appear in the latest draft RUS. As already mentioned, Reading is shortly to have 12-coach platforms anyway.
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They may be reliable, but they are a small non-standard class which sounds like a headache to integrate elsewhere. They were suited to Gatwick Express duties, but as that is gradually downgraded there is less need for a specific fleet (and the design of them means they aren't too suited to anything else without alterations).

The specification was fine for a stand alone franchise in the short term, but trains last a long time and designing one small class specifically for one route will always cause problems when allocations change.

Putting them into 458s at least makes them relatively "normal"

And the 458s are the 3rd most reliable train in the UK so surely it would be an honour to have them integrated into such fine units!

 

[TheWalrus]

I knew p4a/b at Reading are to be lengthened but not sure when? Endless potential cos theres loads of places they could go. If they were converted to ac, they could be used with HX, if it can be done no matter how difficult, how much would it cost per unit?