How broken does a bus need to be before it can't go out?

[py_megapixel]

The Enviro400 I've just alighted from has some strange fault meaning that if the bus is moving, all the electrics in the passenger saloon keep cutting out momentarily, approximately every 5 to 20 seconds. Admittedly it's annoying that the lights and heaters keep going on and off, but probably not a major problem. What's more than an annoyance, though, is that when this happens it sometimes appears to cancel the "Stopping" indicator, even if the bus hasn't actually stopped, which I'm sure has lead to some confusion.

Frankly I'm amazed that this particular bus is allowed to be in service like this, but this got me thinking, what are the requirements for a bus to remain in service vs. when does it have to be withdrawn and fixed? I assume it will vary by operator.

(Also if anyone has any idea what is wrong with this particular one I would be interested to hear it)

 

[Bletchleyite]

"If the wheels turn, send it out" seems to be the usual standard with most operators. Legal roadworthiness even seems optional with some of the less reputable ones, though I doubt big groups would tolerate that.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Think you'd be struggling to get this one out on the road!



(Stock photo of a decidedly dilapidated single-decker bus).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Enviro400 I've just alighted from has some strange fault meaning that if the bus is moving, all the electrics in the passenger saloon keep cutting out momentarily, approximately every 5 to 20 seconds. Admittedly it's annoying that the lights and heaters keep going on and off, but probably not a major problem. What's more than an annoyance, though, is that when this happens it sometimes appears to cancel the "Stopping" indicator, even if the bus hasn't actually stopped, which I'm sure has lead to some confusion.

Frankly I'm amazed that this particular bus is allowed to be in service like this, but this got me thinking, what are the requirements for a bus to remain in service vs. when does it have to be withdrawn and fixed? I assume it will vary by operator.

(Also if anyone has any idea what is wrong with this particular one I would be interested to hear it)

All detailed here in what is an immediate or delayed prohibition https://assets.publishing.service.g...1005624/categorisation-of-vehicle-defects.pdf

"If the wheels turn, send it out" seems to be the usual standard with most operators. Legal roadworthiness even seems optional with some of the less reputable ones, though I doubt big groups would tolerate that.

That's simply not true. The vast majority of operators meet and exceed legal minimums, and it's drummed into their staff.

I witnessed a scene a couple of months ago where a driver was taking over a vehicle. She wasn't happy with a bit of accident damage and would not take the bus; the inspector was suggesting that it was fine. In truth, it was marginal. The driver was adamant and in the end, it was her license and a replacement was found albeit with a delay to the service.

 

[PG]

I witnessed a scene a couple of months ago where a driver was taking over a vehicle. She wasn't happy with a bit of accident damage and would not take the bus; the inspector was suggesting that it was fine. In truth, it was marginal. The driver was adamant and in the end, it was her license and a replacement was found albeit with a delay to the service.

Not that many years ago I had a similar experience, except the fault with the bus I was taking over (in the middle of the day) was the absence of the Operators Licence Disc in the windscreen. Cue much discussion back n forth but it was my PCV licence at risk so I stood my ground. The service ran with a substantial delay - so much so that a later departure left before it.

 

[Gostav]

Much depends on the state of the economy. In a desperate enough environment you always can ignore windows without glass, doors that won't close.

 

[Ken H]

Much depends on the state of the economy. In a desperate enough environment you always can ignore windows without glass, doors that won't close.
View attachment 110302

very odd stuff on the roof too!

 

[Eyersey468]

Think you'd be struggling to get this one out on the road!

View attachment 110291

(Stock photo of a decidedly dilapidated single-decker bus).

Nah they just need to shut it down to the mains and restart it, it will be OK

(our controls stock answer in the event of a problem with a bus)

 

[GusB]

Nah they just need to shut it down to the mains and restart it, it will be OK

(our controls stock answer in the event of a problem with a bus)

The 'switch it off and on again' philosophy often gets laughed at (I used to have to deal with peoples' mobile phone issues), but much of the time it does work!

 

[Eyersey468]

The 'switch it off and on again' philosophy often gets laughed at (I used to have to deal with peoples' mobile phone issues), but much of the time it does work!

Yeah I know it does

 

[PG]

Yeah I know it does

ha ha, indeed a lot of the time it does. One time it didn't was with a Plaxton bodied Volvo B7R which died on me just as I'd started pulling away from a busy city centre bus stop near a junction. Cue my phone call to control getting eventually passed through to a knowledgeable mechanic who guided me through some odd reset procedure. That was a long 7 minutes which other motorists weren't too happy about...

 

[co-tr-paul]

No operators disc. No tax disc. Incorrect legal lettering. Out of date fire extinguisher. Dirty seats. Dirty floor. Wipers not working. Bulb out. List is endless. Some are legal due to pcv law. Some highway code. Some company maintenance. Some driver common sense.
This time of year a dirty number plate will get a driver 3 points on his licence.....

 

[PG]

No operators disc. No tax disc. Incorrect legal lettering. Out of date fire extinguisher. Dirty seats. Dirty floor. Wipers not working. Bulb out. List is endless. Some are legal due to pcv law. Some highway code. Some company maintenance. Some driver common sense.
This time of year a dirty number plate will get a driver 3 points on his licence.....

I get your point but physical tax discs haven't been on the go for ~6 years now.

 

[py_megapixel]

No operators disc. No tax disc. Incorrect legal lettering. Out of date fire extinguisher. Dirty seats. Dirty floor. Wipers not working. Bulb out. List is endless.

But apparently doesn't including the stopping light cancelling itself randomly? That doesn't seem very good.

 

[dan5324]

Company dependent, to an extent. If AC isn’t working on a bus and you refuse to take it out, you’ll be told to Foxtrot Oscar. Whereas at National Express if it isn’t working, it doesn’t go out. Period.

At one of the “big” companies I had no screenwash, a broken drivers seat, no cab heating or saloon heating. Signed it off. It was given straight away to another driver who took it without fuss..

 

[Simon75]

A few years I got the Arriva 38 from Macclesfield bus station to Crewe in the evening, (when run by Macclesfield outstation, ). It had a faulty ticket machine so the driver and me (only passenger), went vi's the outstation to swap buses then rejoin the route back to Crewe

 

[py_megapixel]

A few years I got the Arriva 38 from Macclesfield bus station to Crewe in the evening, (when run by Macclesfield outstation, ). It had a faulty ticket machine so the driver and me (only passenger), went vi's the outstation to swap buses then rejoin the route back to Crewe

I'm surprised they needed to bother swapping the whole bus. Aren't the ticket machines usually semi-portable units anyway?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm surprised they needed to bother swapping the whole bus. Aren't the ticket machines usually semi-portable units anyway?

Quicker to swap the vehicle

 

[CBlue]

"If the wheels turn, send it out" seems to be the usual standard with most operators. Legal roadworthiness even seems optional with some of the less reputable ones, though I doubt big groups would tolerate that.

Codswallop, and not the first time you've tried to present your opinion on this as some sort of "fact"....

When defects develop in service however it varies wildly from driver to driver. The one mentioned by the OP sounds like there was an attempt to limp the bus somewhere more convenient for a swap.

 

[PG]

Quicker to swap the vehicle

Yes it most definitely is which is fine if another suitable vehicle is immediately available. I've seen many a hard pressed controller do a ticket machine swap which, while seeming straightforward, degenerates into a lengthy procedure accompanied by much effing and jeffing! Often better to forego the revenue and run without a ticket machine temporarily.

As an aside it does seem like smaller operators are quite practiced at ticket machine swaps and can do them very efficiently.

 

[alex397]

I’ve even seen Stagecoach take a bus out of service simply because the ticket machine wasn’t working.
So, rather than give a handful of passengers a free ride (and of course, often the majority of passengers are concessionary pass holders or season ticket holders anyway), they’d rather leave them waiting half an hour for the next bus. Good customer service would be to keep the bus in service until a new bus / machine can be found, rather than have unhappy passengers.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I'm surprised they needed to bother swapping the whole bus. Aren't the ticket machines usually semi-portable units anyway?

When I worked in Cardiff the Ticketer machines required a bus swap as they couldn't be changed out on the road. Prior their introduction the Wayfarers could be easily swapped out even by drivers.

 

[150249]

Stagecoach south west 48005 broke down 3 times in one journey a few days ago and was still out for the rest of the day. And the next day for that matter.

 

[peterblue]

Certainly the big OPs are quite (overly) cautious with this. Your mileage may vary with smaller ops. I was once (about 7 years ago) on a First X78 bus Doncaster-Sheffield when a chip & small crack appeared in one of the windows presumably downstairs from roadside debris. I was on the top deck at the time. We had to alight at a roadside junction and wait to be squeezed onto the next one.

 

[MotCO]

I’ve even seen Stagecoach take a bus out of service simply because the ticket machine wasn’t working.
So, rather than give a handful of passengers a free ride (and of course, often the majority of passengers are concessionary pass holders or season ticket holders anyway), they’d rather leave them waiting half an hour for the next bus. Good customer service would be to keep the bus in service until a new bus / machine can be found, rather than have unhappy passengers.

I recall several years ago when TfL buses could not leave depots since the ticket machines were not ready. ( I can't recall if it was all buses or just a garage.) I agree it would have been better customer service to send the buses out and not collect the fares.

 

[wibble1989]

Theres company / legal standards and then there's the standards of the person in the garage who decides if the bus is fit for service, and the pressure on the engineering department at 'run out'.

Cold buses usually put on school runs

Electric faults as described by OP probably put on schools

Buses with engines knackered leaking oil (but legal) probably put on peak only boards until labour available for engine overhaul

 

[Geordie driver]

Every depot has a big book, more like a ledger I guess, where drivers record defects for the engineering staff to fix, this can vary from really serious stuff like brakes down to minor stuff like a cut seat.

The ones I have seen were designed so that if a page went missing, it was obvious, this is so anyone can look back and see what action has been taken and if a defect is recurring.

It also means the company can't deny when a vehicle has been reported as faulty. I assume the Traffic Commissioners check them regularly.

No company wants to be caught out breaking the law but they will sail close to the wind at times.

When I did my first checks I would happily refuse to drive anything I felt wasn't up to the mark, some drivers were not so fussy. The company would see nothing wrong with a bus behaving like the one in the OPs scenario.

We had vehicles which had water enter the drivers cab from above, there is no obvious legal problem other than possibly dangerous vehicle, the company solution was to give you a plastic bag to cover the seat and tell you to wear a coat. They would only sort the problem when the water started hitting the ticket machine.

Things like heaters on in the summer and off in the winter was a constant source of conflict, made worse when a passenger complains and the company would blame the driver. We had a brand new Olympian and from the day it went on the road until the day it was scrapped, the low water buzzer went off every time you turned left.

It was not unknown for a bus to be reported as defective during the day for minor stuff like the bell not working or an exterior light out for it to be parked up for an hour then put back on the road without being fixed. This would depend on the supervisor and how desperate they were for buses.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Every depot has a big book, more like a ledger I guess, where drivers record defects for the engineering staff to fix, this can vary from really serious stuff like brakes down to minor stuff like a cut seat.

The ones I have seen were designed so that if a page went missing, it was obvious, this is so anyone can look back and see what action has been taken and if a defect is recurring.

It also means the company can't deny when a vehicle has been reported as faulty. I assume the Traffic Commissioners check them regularly.

No company wants to be caught out breaking the law but they will sail close to the wind at times.

When I did my first checks I would happily refuse to drive anything I felt wasn't up to the mark, some drivers were not so fussy. The company would see nothing wrong with a bus behaving like the one in the OPs scenario.

We had vehicles which had water enter the drivers cab from above, there is no obvious legal problem other than possibly dangerous vehicle, the company solution was to give you a plastic bag to cover the seat and tell you to wear a coat. They would only sort the problem when the water started hitting the ticket machine.

Things like heaters on in the summer and off in the winter was a constant source of conflict, made worse when a passenger complains and the company would blame the driver. We had a brand new Olympian and from the day it went on the road until the day it was scrapped, the low water buzzer went off every time you turned left.

It was not unknown for a bus to be reported as defective during the day for minor stuff like the bell not working or an exterior light out for it to be parked up for an hour then put back on the road without being fixed. This would depend on the supervisor and how desperate they were for buses.

Not every depot ‘has a big book’. It all depends on their driver defect reporting system. Some may have vehicle defect cards. Others may have driver defect books. Some may now use ticket machines for defect reporting (not least because DVSA ‘earned recognition’ requires electronic submission of data).

 

[philthetube]

Certainly the big OPs are quite (overly) cautious with this. Your mileage may vary with smaller ops. I was once (about 7 years ago) on a First X78 bus Doncaster-Sheffield when a chip & small crack appeared in one of the windows presumably downstairs from roadside debris. I was on the top deck at the time. We had to alight at a roadside junction and wait to be squeezed onto the next one.

overkill, bus windows are laminated, two sheets of glass sandwiching a plastic sheet so not risk. It is, or was legal to run providing the crack does not run from edge to edge of the screen or does not affect the drivers vision.

 

[Eyersey468]

Every depot has a big book, more like a ledger I guess, where drivers record defects for the engineering staff to fix, this can vary from really serious stuff like brakes down to minor stuff like a cut seat.

The ones I have seen were designed so that if a page went missing, it was obvious, this is so anyone can look back and see what action has been taken and if a defect is recurring.

It also means the company can't deny when a vehicle has been reported as faulty. I assume the Traffic Commissioners check them regularly.

No company wants to be caught out breaking the law but they will sail close to the wind at times.

When I did my first checks I would happily refuse to drive anything I felt wasn't up to the mark, some drivers were not so fussy. The company would see nothing wrong with a bus behaving like the one in the OPs scenario.

We had vehicles which had water enter the drivers cab from above, there is no obvious legal problem other than possibly dangerous vehicle, the company solution was to give you a plastic bag to cover the seat and tell you to wear a coat. They would only sort the problem when the water started hitting the ticket machine.

Things like heaters on in the summer and off in the winter was a constant source of conflict, made worse when a passenger complains and the company would blame the driver. We had a brand new Olympian and from the day it went on the road until the day it was scrapped, the low water buzzer went off every time you turned left.

It was not unknown for a bus to be reported as defective during the day for minor stuff like the bell not working or an exterior light out for it to be parked up for an hour then put back on the road without being fixed. This would depend on the supervisor and how desperate they were for buses.

We don't have a big book, we have defect cards we fill in