GS250
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Appears some Russian troops are now falling back. However the latest updates suggest otherwise. All part of Putin's fun and games I reckon.......
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China vs Taiwan and other potential invasions/conflicts of concern (previously included Russia & Ukraine)
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Scotrail314209
Established Member
Ukraine crisis: Human cost of Russia attack would be immense - Biden
The US president says an invasion of Ukraine is still possible despite Russian claims of a withdrawal.
www.bbc.co.uk
So apparently troops aren't drawing back after all.
GusB
Established Member
I might be the only one thinking this but, having grown up during the cold war, this is nothing but willy-waving sabre-rattling. Business as usual.
Gloster
Veteran Member
The trouble with sabre-rattling is that, if those being waved at overreact, the waver may feel that they can’t back down and the whole thing escalates until it gets out of control. With a mixture of provocateurs and incompetents, can we be sure they will know how to stop without losing face.
brad465
Veteran Member
Citizens must have an enemy, as if we/they don't have an enemy they see all the domestic mess their Government/leader is responsible for. All world leaders involved in this are trying to benefit from it, primarily Putin, but every other world leader involved is being somewhat opportunistic (especially our own Johnson, who's been trying to use this crisis as an excuse not to be deposed yet), with the exception of the Ukraine Government, who genuinely can claim to have an enemy, and/or are trying to play down the whole situation.
Gostav
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Anyway Britain still far from the front line, just imagine investors starting to leave the country because of tensions and flights are cancelled and energy prices skyrocketed. For some it's just life, especially if living in the east of Elbe river. American and British media can always headline "War will break out tomorrow!" In Eastern Europe, such a catchy headline is really not fun. In the Czechia, the government already needs to plan for a possible influx of Ukrainian refugees, while the British government naturally need not worry.
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birchesgreen
Established Member
Sheer coincidence.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I think you might be seeing rather too much conspiracy theory there, as well as rather being rather selective in which countries you cite. Some counter-points:
- Macron is hardly being 'belligerent' - if anything, he appears to be one of the ones most keen on making concessions to Russia.
- You don't mention that Germany, also one of the ones most keen on making concessions, has a huge dependency on Russian gas. Vested interests don't only work in one direction!
- The US, the UK and Poland all have strong historical reasons for taking a more active stand against Russia than other countries.
- Lots of other countries have domestically embattled leaders. It's quite a normal thing in democracies for leaders to be struggling against public opinion.
- Turkey and the Baltic states have also been quite pro-active in helping Ukraine (although they've arguably been less 'noisy' about it).
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Agree 100% - this isn't a conspiracy
brad465
Veteran Member
I'd add Putin himself to the "domestically embattled leader" group, and one could argue Biden also fits in the election category, with the mid-terms this year (the US seem to have elections far too frequently, which means hardly anything good gets done, but that's another story).
There is a combination of seriousness and opportunism involved in this, it's not all or nothing on one side.
Putin a domestically embattled leader? Tell that to Alexei Navalny ('Alexei Navalny faces 15 more years in prison as new trial starts' - yesterday) or the late Boris Nemtsov ('Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov was killed not far from the Kremlin in February 2015'). The man is a psychopath, in supreme power for over 20 years and not going anywhere, alas.
Yep, same here, it was lot a worse then but you didn't know anything different as it was the 'norm'.
What cracked me up is when his presidency term was up, he extended it!
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Going back to the original topic, North Korea have been firing test missiles for fun over the last 2 months.. but not much media coverage.
Biden has tried to contact them but they don't want to know. In Trump's upcoming book he says they are in still touch because 'They fell in love''. well...
I enjoyed the period when he was still putting real effort into pretending he wasn't just a dictator for life. You're only allowed two consecutive terms and are approaching the end of your second term? No problem! Simply have your former chief of staff, who has never held an elected office before, run for president and appoint you as prime minister. Then at the end of their four year term you run again and make them prime minister as quid pro quo!
Of course now he just barely bothers to hide it. Term lengths increased from four to six years. And legislation passed that limits people to two terms in their life time but resets the clock so any terms served or started before the law came into effect don't count. Meaning you have two more terms of six years each available to you once you reach the end of the one you're currently serving. Genius.
I thought it was something to do Prime Ministers.
I remember the first time it happened.
His grip on reality is definitely starting to display the effects of being in power for too long. Though god knows how this one is going to end…
kylemore
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And hey presto!Gotta ask, what would happen if no invasion occurs this week? The West and the media would look like utter fools.
Ukraine president issues clarification on earlier statement that Russia will attack Wednesday
Volodymyr Zelenskyy now says the prediction that the attack would come Feb. 16 was spread by the media and is not an official date.www.nbcnews.com
It's quite something when Macron and Scholz appear to be the only adults in the room as compared with the virtually gaga Biden, the clowns Johnson and Truss and the foaming at the mouth Stoltenberg.
Thank goodness for Lavrov and Putin - giants dealing with pygmies.
GWRtom
Member
Russia has just expelled the U.S Deputy Ambassador, Bartle Gorman.
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1494310462527311876
No reason has been given for their decision as of yet, but Putin is currently in the process of attending several meetings to prepare a message
for the federal assembly, presumably later today.
EDIT:
And here is Russia's list of security demands that has just been released, they still insist on the withdrawal of U.S forces & weapons from central & eastern Europe.
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1494310462527311876
No reason has been given for their decision as of yet, but Putin is currently in the process of attending several meetings to prepare a message
for the federal assembly, presumably later today.
EDIT:
And here is Russia's list of security demands that has just been released, they still insist on the withdrawal of U.S forces & weapons from central & eastern Europe.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
What an utterly ludicrous set of demands. They're (roughly) demanding that Ukraine be left defenceless, and the rest of Central and Eastern Europe - all those countries that have good reason to fear Russia because within living memory they were completely under Soviet/Russian hegemony - be defended only by themselves and whatever support the rest of Europe can provide, without US involvement.
It's like a career burgler promising a householder, I'll promise I won't burgle your house, as long as you leave all your doors and windows unlocked.
You mean the guys that have put 150,000 troops on Ukraine's border? Thank goodness for them? The ones that are actually threatening war? Really?
Strathclyder
Established Member
Indeed. Putin is a thuggish dictator. Plain and simple. He just did a better job of using democratic processes to mask it in the past.
Oh god, Trump is writing another book. Sorry, meant to say: having another one ghostwritten for him. And the only reason he says he and Kim Jong-un 'fell in love' was because he saw a lot of himself in Kim: birds of a delusional, narcissistic authoritarian feather do tend to flock together. Why else would he repeatedly defend Putin and his thuggish behavior over his own intelligence agencies for instance?
Thank goodness for those who are the primary causes of this crisis to begin with? The ones who've placed 150,000 troops on Ukraine's border? The ones who are actually threatening war here? For real?
I'd much, much rather have a pygmy that can be booted out via democratic means than a giant who has used their time in high office to practically dismantle the means with which the general populace can peacefully remove them via the ballot box. At this point, the only way I can see Putin leaving office is when he eventually snuffs it a la Stalin and a good few other Soviet premiers (Brezhnev, Andropov & Chernenko spring most readily to mind).
And as for that list of security demands.... Yeah, I can't see Biden or his top military commanders agreeing to any one of them. Utterly barmy is too light a phrase, but not at all surprising given Putin's track record.
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nanstallon
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Yes, Putin is a fascist dictator. There have always been a few of those around. In the past, we have had sensible and effective leadership in the West. That is why the USA eventually faced the USSR down, Gorbachev being prepared to grasp the nettle that communism didn't work. With China having realised that some years before,it looked as though liberal democracy might triumph.
Then in 1989, the Tien-an-men Square massacre showed that authoritarian rule would prevail in China. The implosion of the USSR between 1986 and 1991 should have ended with Gorbachev leading Russia into a genuine democracy, but Yeltsin outmanoeuvred him (and to be fair he became a hero for facing down the coup in summer 1991) and his personal issues stopped him being an effective leader. The West should have realised that Russia was militarily (in nuclear terms) still a superpower, which had its pride. Instead the West was triumphalist and instead of engaging properly with Russia as a partner for peace, treated Russia as a supplicant. So, so surprised that Putin emerged as a leader who would build up Russia's power and status in the world. No place for democracy in his project.
At the same time, the West threw up fools as leaders. Unwise military adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed our moral authority. Malicious idiots such as Trump and Johnson, who also want authoritarian rule, honest but still inexperienced leaders such as Macron and Scholz, and an experienced but naive leader such as Biden - the West is weaker than it was during the Cold War. Putin is a nasty piece of work, but has more intelligence than the West's leaders put together.
So, it looks as though authoritarian regimes are going to win. Not only that but a gerrymandered US election in 2024, and a police state Britain (note the current Police bill giving the police the power to stop protests) will soon be joining Russia and China as having abandoned (in the case of China never had it) freedom.
Then in 1989, the Tien-an-men Square massacre showed that authoritarian rule would prevail in China. The implosion of the USSR between 1986 and 1991 should have ended with Gorbachev leading Russia into a genuine democracy, but Yeltsin outmanoeuvred him (and to be fair he became a hero for facing down the coup in summer 1991) and his personal issues stopped him being an effective leader. The West should have realised that Russia was militarily (in nuclear terms) still a superpower, which had its pride. Instead the West was triumphalist and instead of engaging properly with Russia as a partner for peace, treated Russia as a supplicant. So, so surprised that Putin emerged as a leader who would build up Russia's power and status in the world. No place for democracy in his project.
At the same time, the West threw up fools as leaders. Unwise military adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq destroyed our moral authority. Malicious idiots such as Trump and Johnson, who also want authoritarian rule, honest but still inexperienced leaders such as Macron and Scholz, and an experienced but naive leader such as Biden - the West is weaker than it was during the Cold War. Putin is a nasty piece of work, but has more intelligence than the West's leaders put together.
So, it looks as though authoritarian regimes are going to win. Not only that but a gerrymandered US election in 2024, and a police state Britain (note the current Police bill giving the police the power to stop protests) will soon be joining Russia and China as having abandoned (in the case of China never had it) freedom.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
You're confusing authoritarian with fascist.
I wonder what stance Trump would have taken with Russia and Ukraine?
Scotrail314209
Established Member
I don’t even think he’d send reinforcements over tbh, nor would he be bothered too much. Then again, we don’t know Trump’s thoughts on Ukraine.
Mussolini: to hell with democracy, strong leader needed, regain our rightful territory, make Italy great again.
Putin: to hell with democracy, strong leader needed, regain our rightful territory, make Russia great again.
What makes one a fascist and the other merely authoritarian? OK, one wore a uniform and the other wears a tailored suit, but otherwise ...
Which countries in the world allow protestors complete freedom to act as they wish? Fascist Switzerland uses water cannon, fascist Netherlands uses tear gas, fascist Australia uses rubber bullets. All police states?
Strathclyder
Established Member
Not if they don't concern the Bidens' supposed dodgy dealings there, we don't. Otherwise, I doubt if he could point it out on a map.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
Fascism is the name for a type of politics, a type Putin doesn't follow. Being nationalistic can be done by those on any side of the political spectrum; see the SNP. Would you call them far right? So to answer the question, it's their respective politics.
squizzler
Established Member
THat's my chief fear. The authoritarian countries cannot win, because its leaders are only interested in themselves and hearing what they want to hear, but the "West" is perfectly capable of destroying itself. It seems that the Free World is increasingly not what the press term the "West" but countries in the far east such as South Korea, China (albeit only the Taiwanese republic thereof) and so forth. Sad to say but English speaking world seems to have run its course, but out of the traditional "Western counties" it seems to me the EU - that Britain separated from by choice - seems to be flourishing.
brad465
Veteran Member
George Monbiot recently talked about how the Cold War was based on two extreme ideologies that are/were both doomed to fail: extreme individualism (US and allies) and extreme collectivism (USSR). The former ideology was not actually vindicated by the collapse of the latter, all that happened was the latter collapsed first. Now arguably we're seeing the extreme individualism ideology starting to fail, not least because there are not enough resources to satisfy everyone having whatever they want and disregarding others. The collapse could see any combination of fascism, civil war and/or general chaos, with a peaceful transition hard to see.
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