Wisbech to March line consultation.

[Bald Rick]

Well if they've not managed to achieve it with a non-rail served settlement, what makes you think they will with one with a railway service where there will be infinitely more political resistance ?

That’s not what I mean. I mean it will be achieved for a non rail connected location - such as Wisbech. Or Tavistock, etc.

I agree there will be political resistance if it was to replace a rail service - unless the rail service was so poor and the bus replacement much better, but that’s only at the very margin of services.

However, in the current climate of a *very* hard limit on cash, introducing new heavily subsidised services is not going to happen. Even spending cash on investigating new lines to then run heavily subsidised services isn’t going to happen. But there is a political howl to be wriggled out of, so I can foresee that instead of spending - say - £5m investigating building a line to Wisbech, that £2m is spent on a few brand new high quality buses / coaches and the first five years of their operation, and included as part of the rail timetable and fares system.

My opinion only, and Wisbech may not be done like his (but it is the best chance Wiscbech has).

 

[berwicksfinest]

As, indeed, does Wisbech as a quick look at the NR journey planner shows ! However that is for the coach to Peterborough (presumably the First 'Excel' route ?).

That said a dedicated bus link to March is still far cheaper than trying to reinstate the railway and could be achieved in a couple of months by the relevant authorities from within their own budgets - which again begs the question why the Cambs & Peterboro Combined Authority aren't pursuing this route to demonstrate demand and instead are wasting huge amounts of taxpayers money on further studies about the rail viability - especially given they failed in their bid for RYR funding - which suggests they weren't properly prepared.

Thats an Easy one !! Bus routed via Elm and Friday Bridge will get lost in a pot hole, Routed via A47 will sit in the traffic at Guyhirn forever and a day !!!

 

[A0]

The relevant authorities will probably not be able to afford a dedicated bus link from their own budgets (in Public Transport stretched by reduced patronage, and more generally by soaring social care costs). It is always better to promote rail enhancements/re-opening, not because trains are necessarily better for the job in hand, but because their ongoing losses will be funded by central government, rather than bus services which have to be commercial or funded by competing with their statutory responsibilities. Bonkers, and quite unjust to the large proportion of the population not directly served by rail.

Yet they can afford the 00s of thousands in consultants fees when trying to prove a rail-link is viable.

What would a dedicated rail link cost ?

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Thats an Easy one !! Bus routed via Elm and Friday Bridge will get lost in a pot hole, Routed via A47 will sit in the traffic at Guyhirn forever and a day !!!

Ah, you mean a pot hole that the C&PCA have in their remit to fix along with improving the A47 ?

Much easier to create a problem for somebody else to address....

 

[berwicksfinest]

Yet they can afford the 00s of thousands in consultants fees when trying to prove a rail-link is viable.

What would a dedicated rail link cost ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2022 ==



Ah, you mean a pot hole that the C&PCA have in their remit to fix along with improving the A47 ?

Much easier to create a problem for somebody else to address....

Thats the one !! gotta pay for them consultancy fees some how

 

[yorksrob]

I'll have to try the Minehead link some time to see if the transition is as smooth as everyone seems to imply.

They could do with something like that to Padstow in the absence of rail reopening.

 

[A0]

I'll have to try the Minehead link some time to see if the transition is as smooth as everyone seems to imply.

They could do with something like that to Padstow in the absence of rail reopening.

Perhaps you could also try the Wisbech one from Peterborough.....

 

[Cowley]

There’s a Feasibility report here which @Bald Rick kindly notified us of.

 

[daodao]

Perhaps you could also try the Wisbech one from Peterborough.....

Apt. The key city for Wisbech is Peterborough (22 miles away), rather than Cambridge (40 miles away). Peterborough is nearer and larger than Cambridge. One of the key drivers for successful rail re-opening projects is improving connectivity from major settlements to the nearest city; a successful example is the line from Aberdare to Abercynon and thence to Cardiff. Re-opening the line from Wisbech to March does not achieve this aim for Wisbech. Trains would even need to reverse at March to travel from Wisbech to Peterborough, adding 5 minutes to any through journey time.

There is already a high quality bus service from Wisbech to Peterborough (every 30 minutes Mon-Sat, hourly Sun) taking no more than 50 minutes, operated by First Eastern Counties. The bus service between Wisbech and Peterborough is even included in the National Rail route planner (Wisbech has the code WIS) with through bus-rail fares/ticketing available.

What does re-opening the line from Wisbech to March realistically achieve? And that is before one contemplates the (spiralling) cost of this proposed re-opening.

 

[30907]

Apt. The key city for Wisbech is Peterborough (22 miles away), rather than Cambridge (40 miles away). Peterborough is nearer and larger than Cambridge.

But Cambridge has rather more jobs and significantly higher wage levels according to ONS:
https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157205/report.aspx?c1=1946157202&c2=2092957698#tabjobs
I suspect that might balance out the longer journey time.
Without checking, I predict that house prices in Cambridge are also a tad higher than in Peterborough - hence, for example, the new town of Cambourne.

I can understand the good citizens of Wisbech wanting to share some of Cambridge's apparent prosperity, even if their aspirations are impracticable.

PS - the Ebbw Vale line was opened to Cardiff first, not the nearest city which is Newport.

 

[berwicksfinest]

As said I am a resident of Wisbech, where do I work ......... Peterborough

But Cambridge has rather more jobs and significantly higher wage levels according to ONS:
https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/la/1946157205/report.aspx?c1=1946157202&c2=2092957698#tabjobs
I suspect that might balance out the longer journey time.
Without checking, I predict that house prices in Cambridge are also a tad higher than in Peterborough - hence, for example, the new town of Cambourne.

I can understand the good citizens of Wisbech wanting to share some of Cambridge's apparent prosperity, even if their aspirations are impracticable.

PS - the Ebbw Vale line was opened to Cardiff first, not the nearest city which is Newport.

I think I can safely say that house prices for Cambridge are significantly higher than here !!!!

 

[Magdalia]

The Cambridge and Peterborough Combined Authority have published an update on this consultation, which is on their website here:

‘Art of the possible’ looked at for Wisbech, says Network Rail - Cambridgeshire & Peterborough Combined Authority

Hopes for improving Wisbech connectivity came to the fore this week when members of the Combined Authority’s Transport and Infrastructure Committee heard from Network Rail that there was a ‘strong strategic case’ for Wisbech rail but that the ‘art of the possible’ would be key. The Combined...

cambridgeshirepeterborough-ca.gov.uk

Hopes for improving Wisbech connectivity came to the fore this week when members of the Combined Authority’s Transport and Infrastructure Committee heard from Network Rail that there was a ‘strong strategic case’ for Wisbech rail but that the ‘art of the possible’ would be key.

The Combined Authority has engaged Network Rail to undertake a report to consider all on-rail options and the Committee was being updated on progress.

Network Rail is considering opportunities for a shuttle passenger service between March and Wisbech to improve connectivity, commuting opportunities, and to support regeneration in the Fens area.

The Committee heard from Network Rail’s Robert Russell that four baseline options are being considered that can be developed following agreement on further funding.

• conventional rail
• tram-train
• light rail
• very light rail

These options are being considered with awareness that many Wisbech people hope for uninterrupted connectivity to the wider mainline rail network and integration with local infrastructure.

There is also a report on the BBC website which is here:

Wisbech to March rail link options being discussed

Network Rail says there is strong argument to reopen a line, but other options are being considered.

www.bbc.co.uk

Four options for a "rail" service between the Fenland towns of Wisbech and March are being considered by Network Rail.
Campaigners have been calling for the Bramley Line to be re-opened for decades, after it shut in the 1960s.
The Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority has asked Network Rail to look at all options.
Among the considerations are trams and light rail as a way to connect the towns.
Wisbech is currently one of the largest towns in England without a rail link.
Network Rail has been assessing ways to introduce a "shuttle service" between Wisbech and March. Passengers would then be able to connect to other rail services towards Peterborough or Ely.
It has presented its findings to the Combined Authority. Network Rail will now look at what upgrade work needs to be done and produce a report, including the costs of any work.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that now that sorting out Ely North is actually on the agenda, this should be done as heavy rail with a view to extending some trains from further South.

 

[cle]

I just can’t see 2 car diesels to Wisbech being what the new unlocked Ely capacity would be best used for.

Everything through there should be a certain length, and eventually, electric.

But separately I do think a station rebuild at Ely to build another through and several bay platforms might enable a few extra services which don’t cross (eg the other bi-hourly Ipswich terminates at a south facing bay) - and build it up as a true hub.

 

[Bald Rick]

And yet, for the price of a feasibility study, Wisbech could have a half hourly express non-stop coach to March for a couple of years, with integrated ticketing (Wisbech is already in the fares system) and they could have it in January next year. That might prove what level of demand there actually is, before we spend a 9 figure sum of taxpayers‘ money.

 

[Magdalia]

And yet, for the price of a feasibility study, Wisbech could have a half hourly express non-stop coach to March for a couple of years, with integrated ticketing (Wisbech is already in the fares system) and they could have it in January next year. That might prove what level of demand there actually is, before we spend a 9 figure sum of taxpayers‘ money.

Actually a Wisbech-March bus service would prove nothing. I don't know if you have ever travelled between March and Wisbech by road. I have done it, lots of times. There are two routes, both dire. Only the route via Guyhirn is suitable for a coach journey and it won't be express!

The main goal is to link Wisbech to Cambridge, not March. An express coach won't be able to do Wisbech-March in less than 30 minutes, so doesn't offer a Wisbech-Cambridge journey time of less than an hour, which would be essential to estimate current demand.

Furthermore, this isn't about the level of demand now. It is about demand in the future as Cambridge continues to grow.

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually a Wisbech-March bus service would prove nothing. I don't know if you have ever travelled between March and Wisbech by road. I have done it, lots of times. There are two routes, both dire. Only the route via Guyhirn is suitable for a coach journey and it won't be express!

The main goal is to link Wisbech to Cambridge, not March. An express coach won't be able to do Wisbech-March in less than 30 minutes, so doesn't offer a Wisbech-Cambridge journey time of less than an hour, which would be essential to estimate current demand.

Furthermore, this isn't about the level of demand now. It is about demand in the future as Cambridge continues to grow.

Yep I have, several times. A Wisbech - Cambridge train wouldn’t be much quicker than an hour.

 

[Magdalia]

A Wisbech - Cambridge train wouldn’t be much quicker than an hour.

In 1960 trains did Wisbech-March in 13-15 minutes. March-Cambridge is currently about 35 minutes with an Ely stop. Wisbech-Cambridge in 50 minutes would be doable if (and a big if!) it could be pathed through Ely, and is less than an hour even with a change at March.

But a coach link wouldn't be able to deliver anything Wisbech-Cambridge in under 70 minutes.

 

[Bald Rick]

But a coach link wouldn't be able to deliver anything Wisbech-Cambridge in under 70 minutes.

But it could deliver it in January, for very little outlay. Rather than some time in the 2030s with a bill for a couple of hundred million quid.

 

[yorksrob]

A pony and trap would be even cheaper !

We've has a chunk oh HS2 cancelled to provide local links. That means coughing up for schemes such as Wisbech.

 

[Bartsimho]

But it could deliver it in January, for very little outlay. Rather than some time in the 2030s with a bill for a couple of hundred million quid.

Seems like a short term bandage again rather than long term planning. Town of 30,000 semi-near to a place which is growing rapidly. Has an existing freight line. Start as a single track line with a by platform as well as the connection to the through lines to be able to run peak services to Cambridge and then a shuttle the rest of the day. Have the owned land wide enough for future doubling. Basically the perfect length line for future battery trains as we are always told that's the way rolling stock is going as well

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems like a short term bandage again rather than long term planning.

You can do both, you know. You never know, the coach link might actually stimulate growth!

Has an existing freight line.

That is stretching the definition of ‘existing’.

 

[bluenoxid]

How good is the road between Downham Market and Wisbech?

Whilst March - Wisbech is shorter, the service to Cambridge is only hourly if my understanding is correct.

 

[Magdalia]

The objective is to bring Wisbech into the Cambridge Travel to Work Area.

A coach service to/from March with a Wisbech-Cambridge journey time of 70 minutes, and for a time limited period, is not going to encourage many people to try living in Wisbech and working in Cambridge. It would be a complete waste of money that would not demonstrate anything useful.

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How good is the road between Downham Market and Wisbech?

Even worse than Wisbech-March!

 

[TheBigD]

Has an existing freight line.

That is stretching the definition of ‘existing’.

Indeed.

Track missing in a small number of locations, and the remaining track that is still in situ is no more than scrap and rotton timbers. Some level crossings tarmacced over, with the remaing level crossing infrastructure heavily stripped.
Formation has seen no drainage maintenance or vegetation work, and is a mixture of swamp and brambles etc. Chain Bridge needs some serious work.

About the only positive is that the right of way still exists.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed.

Track missing in a small number of locations, and the remaining track that is still in situ is no more than scrap and rotton timbers. Some level crossings tarmacced over, with the remaing level crossing infrastructure heavily stripped.
Formation has seen no drainage maintenance or vegetation work, and is a mixture of swamp and brambles etc. Chain Bridge needs some serious work.

About the only positive is that the right of way still exists.

How about an unguided busway (read repair the formation and tarmac over) from the former level crossing on B1101 Elm Road on the outskirts of March - Weasenham Lane in Wisbech? You could run the express rail-linked coach Bald Rick is proposing from March station over March East LC to the start of the busway, then turn onto Weasenham Lane and then B198 Cromwell Road towards Horsefair Bus Station in the middle of town.

The similar 8 mile Orchard Park - Swavesey section of the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway takes around 12 mins with stops. With an additional 10 mins to reach March station and Wisbech bus station, you could comfortably run a link in 25 mins.

 

[Magdalia]

How about an unguided busway (read repair the formation and tarmac over) from the former level crossing on B1101 Elm Road on the outskirts of March - Weasenham Lane in Wisbech? You could run the express rail-linked coach Bald Rick is proposing from March station over March East LC to the start of the busway, then turn onto Weasenham Lane and then B198 Cromwell Road towards Horsefair Bus Station in the middle of town.

The similar 8 mile Orchard Park - Swavesey section of the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway takes around 12 mins with stops. With an additional 10 mins to reach March station and Wisbech bus station, you could comfortably run a link in 25 mins.

I have also thought about this. But I think the Wisbech-March journey time would need to be less than 20 minutes, both to give a sub 60 minutes time Wisbech-Cambridge, and to be significantly quicker than going via Guyhirn.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I have also thought about this. But I think the Wisbech-March journey time would need to be less than 20 minutes, both to give a sub 60 minutes time Wisbech-Cambridge, and to be significantly quicker than going via Guyhirn.

20 mins itself is just about possible end to end, for now any more would have to wait.
It would still be quicker than via Guyhirn for most of the day, especially in the peak.

If there were at least 2 departures an hour properly integrated with southbound and northbound services from March, then you could still achieve a sub-60min timing from March to Cambridge/Peterborough (given March to Cambridge is around 35 mins + March to Peterborough about 16 mins).
Further journey time reduction would need linespeed improvements March to Cambridge before anything else.

 

[bspahh]

The objective is to bring Wisbech into the Cambridge Travel to Work Area.

A coach service to/from March with a Wisbech-Cambridge journey time of 70 minutes, and for a time limited period, is not going to encourage many people to try living in Wisbech and working in Cambridge. It would be a complete waste of money that would not demonstrate anything useful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2023 ==


Even worse than Wisbech-March!

However, a coach to Downham Market connects to 8 car trains, every 30 minutes at peak hours, which also stop at Cambridge North, Cambridge South (probably - I haven't seen that confirmed) and Kings Cross. You also have a chance of a seat if you return from Cambridge at rush hour.

The Cross Country trains from March mean you need to change to get to Cambridge North or South, and are only 3 cars so they get crammed in with Ely commuters at rush hour.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

But it could deliver it in January, for very little outlay. Rather than some time in the 2030s with a bill for a couple of hundred million quid.

I'm intrigued that the New Civil Engineer article is quoting an NR/ORR estimate of "£33M - £39M at Q3 2016 prices": https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...o-reopen-cambridgeshire-rail-line-21-11-2023/

I realise that there has been a lot of construction inflation since then. But £33m seems low even by mid-2010s standards, given that new stations alone seem to come in at £24m.

 

[Magdalia]

However, a coach to Downham Market connects to 8 car trains, every 30 minutes at peak hours

That would be fine if a coach service to Downham Market was feasible, but it isn't. As I have already pointed out, the Wisbech-Downham Market road is even more dire than Wisbech-March.

Wisbech-Downham Market has 2 buses per day in each direction, taking 30 minutes plus. The vehicles are short wheelbase because the road is unsuitable for full sized buses.

A coach to Downham Market is fantasy, if it could be done it would be there now.