Smart Motorways, is it time to end them?

[Bletchleyite]

Not so sure about that one. It would tend to give the impression of a target speed rather than a limit. You would also need to consider how the display behaves when the speed limit changes. A sudden jump of the dial would be distraction in itself (or could be missed completely). Some level of smoothing would be appropriate.

Better just to show the limit as indeed some cars now do.

 

[domcoop7]

My car shows the speed limit (and other road signs) by detecting them from the signs. If you put it into cruise control, it will go at whatever the limit is.

Which is great. Except you get bits, (the most common one for me being Pimbo interchange on the M58) where there is a slip road or other road parallel to the motorway with its own speed limit signs. Whenever I go past the section, I could be doing 70, and the car sees the adjacent 40 and slams on the brakes! Now I know either to turn it off on that bit, or be prepared for it to happen and put my foot down to countermand the brake application. But the technology isn't quite where it needs to be yet.

(Same thing happens, but worse, with a "crash detection" system, which you can't turn off. If it thinks you will crash into something, it sounds a very loud beep, flashes a warning sign on the dash and starts to perform an emergency stop! Problem is, this can happen when you are on a sharp bend, and the car doesn't realise you will be steering, but assumes you are going straight ahead into whatever obstacle is there. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, the combination of factors can be a bit of a shock, and distracting)

 

[zwk500]

True, but they are also something you have to remember to get it right. Short term memory is not my forte (don't know about you) and so I find a reminder helpful for an occasional glance if not sure.

I think general driving and Smart Motorways under VSL conditions are 2 different sets of circumstances. An otherwise unremarkable stretch of A road that happens to have a 50 limit is easy enough to forget at times (The road from Northampton to the A5 roundabout north of Stony Stratford is a case in point you may be familiar with). On these I can understand why you'd want the dash to have a gentle reminder available. But a speed that is communicated to you by a gantry every 0.25 miles does not need repeating on the dash as well, and glancing up to the next gantry is better for general awareness then glancing down at the dashboard.

 

[antharro]

Whenever I go past the section, I could be doing 70, and the car sees the adjacent 40 and slams on the brakes!

(Same thing happens, but worse, with a "crash detection" system, which you can't turn off.

@domcoop7 - what car is this? I need to avoid it at all costs!

 

[domcoop7]

@domcoop7 - what car is this? I need to avoid it at all costs!

VW Touareg. I guess the same system will be used in other VW / Audi / Skoda cars. On VW they call it "sign assist" for the signs, and "front assist" for the emergency stop. It seems I'm not the only one who's experienced this. http://www.vwproblems.com/front-assist-defect/

 

[Bletchleyite]

@domcoop7 - what car is this? I need to avoid it at all costs!

It sounds extremely dangerous.

 

[domcoop7]

It sounds extremely dangerous.

It's unnerving when it happens! I also found this, which suggests you can turn it off, but I never worked out how to (and I think it turns itself back on every time you start the car anyway!). https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/volkswagen-car-keeps-thinking-its-689355

Anyway, I suspect I'm going off topic a bit re: smart motorways!

 

[antharro]

VW Touareg. I guess the same system will be used in other VW / Audi / Skoda cars. On VW they call it "sign assist" for the signs, and "front assist" for the emergency stop. It seems I'm not the only one who's experienced this. http://www.vwproblems.com/front-assist-defect/

Blimey. Just watched that video. So you can turn its settings down or temporarily disable it until the next time you start the car, but you can't permanently disable it. Really could be quite lethal. Guess that's one manufacturer off my list. I think I'll be holding on to my older cars for as long as I can!

On topic - I really do wish, now the Smart Motorways have been cancelled, that the works on the M27 could be cancelled along with them. It's a miserable experience right now with miles of roadworks, all for something that's no longer wanted.

 

[Bald Rick]

VW Touareg. I guess the same system will be used in other VW / Audi / Skoda cars. On VW they call it "sign assist" for the signs, and "front assist" for the emergency stop. It seems I'm not the only one who's experienced this. http://www.vwproblems.com/front-assist-defect/

I have front assist on mine, but it doesn’t chuck the anchors out when coming up to a tight corner fast. It does do it when the car in front brakes very suddenly. Sounds like it might be a fault on the car itself.

 

[ABB125]

On topic - I really do wish, now the Smart Motorways have been cancelled, that the works on the M27 could be cancelled along with them. It's a miserable experience right now with miles of roadworks, all for something that's no longer wanted.

They haven't been cancelled - there's just a change in policy regarding what technology is required on the gantries. Indeed, work on smartifying the M3 between the A34 and M27 is just starting I believe.
I'm not sure what stage of work the M27 is at, but it could be similar to the M6 north of Stafford. Here, the work was completed about a year ago, but due to the aforementioned change in policy, it can't be opened yet. As a result, the former hard shoulder (which is now marked out as a normal running lane) is coned off, with a 60mph average speed limit. For about 15 miles!

 

[swt_passenger]

They haven't been cancelled - there's just a change in policy regarding what technology is required on the gantries. Indeed, work on smartifying the M3 between the A34 and M27 is just starting I believe.
I'm not sure what stage of work the M27 is at, but it could be similar to the M6 north of Stafford. Here, the work was completed about a year ago, but due to the aforementioned change in policy, it can't be opened yet. As a result, the former hard shoulder (which is now marked out as a normal running lane) is coned off, with a 60mph average speed limit. For about 15 miles!

Yes that’s basically what happened with the M27. I haven’t been along for a couple of months and it was near completion but awaiting better stopped vehicle detection etc. I agree nothings been “cancelled” in the usual meaning of the word.

 

[Roast Veg]

My car shows the speed limit (and other road signs) by detecting them from the signs. If you put it into cruise control, it will go at whatever the limit is.

The car I drive always shows the current speed limit on the center console based on the satnav. It frequently shows nothing (typically for quiet roads that might be 20 or 30), sometimes the wrong speed (since it does not do OTTA updates it gets out of date), and obviously cannot keep up to date with smart motorways.

 

[JamesT]

My Yaris shows the speed limit on the dash by using a camera to read the speed limits. When I last did a trip on the M25 with variable speed limits it seemed to manage to pick up the changed speeds on the gantries, but didn't recognise the national speed limit one on the gantry when it reverted back to normal. Which as it's only advisory is merely irritating that it's showing a lower limit than is actually in effect. The sign on the dash changes to a red version when you're over, so it only needs a glance to check.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My Yaris shows the speed limit on the dash by using a camera to read the speed limits. When I last did a trip on the M25 with variable speed limits it seemed to manage to pick up the changed speeds on the gantries, but didn't recognise the national speed limit one on the gantry when it reverted back to normal. Which as it's only advisory is merely irritating that it's showing a lower limit than is actually in effect. The sign on the dash changes to a red version when you're over, so it only needs a glance to check.

It might also be confused by the gantries showing different speeds by lane. They don't do this on "plain line", but it isn't unknown for the signs over a sliproad to have a different limit based on where queues are.

 

[swt_passenger]

My Yaris shows the speed limit on the dash by using a camera to read the speed limits. When I last did a trip on the M25 with variable speed limits it seemed to manage to pick up the changed speeds on the gantries, but didn't recognise the national speed limit one on the gantry when it reverted back to normal. Which as it's only advisory is merely irritating that it's showing a lower limit than is actually in effect. The sign on the dash changes to a red version when you're over, so it only needs a glance to check.

My Ford reverts to a blank when it passes a gantry or roadside de-restricted sign, presumably because it doesn't know for sure if it means 60 or 70?

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone who watches the various videos on YouTube of police cars struggling to reach the scene of major incidents on so-called Smart Motorways at peak times would conclude the idea was dumb and remains dumb. Even worse for fire engines (in particular) and ambulances, who either have more cumbersome vehicles or don't possess the extra skills of trained motorway police drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone who watches the various videos on YouTube of police cars struggling to reach the scene of major incidents on so-called Smart Motorways at peak times would conclude the idea was dumb and remains dumb. Even worse for fire engines (in particular) and ambulances, who either have more cumbersome vehicles or don't possess the extra skills of trained motorway police drivers.

Much as I think the hard shoulder needs to return (but like the other elements), the obvious answer is to put the red Xs up and then drive to the incident the "wrong way" on the empty carriageway. I suspect this is what they actually do.

Interestingly in Germany where there is no hard shoulder drivers are instructed by signage to move to the side of their lane and create a gap - "Rettungsspur" - but we are not disciplined enough in the UK.

 

[XAM2175]

Interestingly in Germany where there is no hard shoulder drivers are instructed by signage to move to the side of their lane and create a gap - "Rettungsspur" - but we are not disciplined enough in the UK.

Apart from a few silly people (naturally) it appears quite effective.

 

[JamesT]

Interestingly in Germany where there is no hard shoulder drivers are instructed by signage to move to the side of their lane and create a gap - "Rettungsspur" - but we are not disciplined enough in the UK.

We might not have the signage, but I've seen vehicles pulling aside to let emergency vehicles through enough times in this country.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Reopening this thread, has anybody driven the M6 between junctions 13 and 15 recently in either direction? It's supposed to be all completed this month or next but Sabre Roads isn't updated very frequently.

 

[Djgr]

Reopening this thread, has anybody driven the M6 between junctions 13 and 15 recently in either direction? It's supposed to be all completed this month or next but Sabre Roads isn't updated very frequently.

Going south it appears essentially finished but with the usual detritus lying around that appears to inevitably accompany projects. Also speed limit set at 60 via overhead signage, presumably for one's safety?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Going south it appears essentially finished but with the usual detritus lying around that appears to inevitably accompany projects. Also speed limit set at 60 via overhead signage, presumably for one's safety?

That sounds promising for a March completion. Any news northbound?

 

[DelW]

Going south it appears essentially finished but with the usual detritus lying around that appears to inevitably accompany projects. Also speed limit set at 60 via overhead signage, presumably for one's safety?

The M1 between junctions 13 and 14 has been converted to all lane running with four lanes, completed a few weeks ago, but every time I've used it the overhead speed limit signs have been set at 60. There are signs on the verges saying something like "speed limit set for system test", but I wonder if it will actually be a permanent feature because of the safety concerns regarding all lane running?

 

[simonw]

The M1 between junctions 13 and 14 has been converted to all lane running with four lanes, completed a few weeks ago, but every time I've used it the overhead speed limit signs have been set at 60. There are signs on the verges saying something like "speed limit set for system test", but I wonder if it will actually be a permanent feature because of the safety concerns regarding all lane running?

The M1 between junctions 13 and 14 has been converted to all lane running with four lanes, completed a few weeks ago, but every time I've used it the overhead speed limit signs have been set at 60. There are signs on the verges saying something like "speed limit set for system test", but I wonder if it will actually be a permanent feature because of the safety concerns regarding all lane running?

Unlike. The M4 was, so it seemed, set to max 60 after conversion for some time after conversion, but no longer.

 

[DelW]

Unlike. The M4 was, so it seemed, set to max 60 after conversion for some time after conversion, but no longer.

That's encouraging, I hope the M1 follows that example.

 

[bramling]

Unlike. The M4 was, so it seemed, set to max 60 after conversion for some time after conversion, but no longer.

Something similar happened for the A1(M) upgrade south of Scotch Corner. In that instance it isn’t a smart motorway (thankfully), but the 50 restriction was kept in for some considerable time once all the physical works were finished, until all the “technology” was fully commissioned.

 

[carriageline]

My car shows the speed limit (and other road signs) by detecting them from the signs. If you put it into cruise control, it will go at whatever the limit is.

Which is great. Except you get bits, (the most common one for me being Pimbo interchange on the M58) where there is a slip road or other road parallel to the motorway with its own speed limit signs. Whenever I go past the section, I could be doing 70, and the car sees the adjacent 40 and slams on the brakes! Now I know either to turn it off on that bit, or be prepared for it to happen and put my foot down to countermand the brake application. But the technology isn't quite where it needs to be yet.

(Same thing happens, but worse, with a "crash detection" system, which you can't turn off. If it thinks you will crash into something, it sounds a very loud beep, flashes a warning sign on the dash and starts to perform an emergency stop! Problem is, this can happen when you are on a sharp bend, and the car doesn't realise you will be steering, but assumes you are going straight ahead into whatever obstacle is there. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, the combination of factors can be a bit of a shock, and distracting)

You are definitely right with the technology not quite being there. Our new car (new model that came out last year) can pick up road signs, but thankfully requires you to press a button to set the cruise to that speed. I was going down a National speed country lane recently, and there were some road works on a farm access road adjacent with a 5 mph speed sign, which my car picked up. Very thankful it didn’t just slam on!

Ours also has “lane assist”, but someone had the grand idea of having it active at all speeds. So trying to overtake parked cars on a 30 road can be quite suicidal when it tries to turn you back into them… Then it has the audacity to tell you to brake as you are about to crash!

 

[Graham H]

You are definitely right with the technology not quite being there. Our new car (new model that came out last year) can pick up road signs, but thankfully requires you to press a button to set the cruise to that speed. I was going down a National speed country lane recently, and there were some road works on a farm access road adjacent with a 5 mph speed sign, which my car picked up. Very thankful it didn’t just slam on!

Ours also has “lane assist”, but someone had the grand idea of having it active at all speeds. So trying to overtake parked cars on a 30 road can be quite suicidal when it tries to turn you back into them… Then it has the audacity to tell you to brake as you are about to crash!

I had a VW Golf rental car with lane assist which I didnt know it had. Driving along a dual carriageway and overtaking something provided a weird sensation that I was going over some kind of camber or high spot where the lane lines were. Eventually worked out it was lane assist thanks to the rude messages about keep in lane or hold the steering wheel (or something like that) that appeared on the dash. So what was happening was as I was about to cross the lane lines the car tried to steer back into lane hence the weird sensation. Provided you held the steering wheel fairly tightly you just got the weird rolling sensation but if held lightly it was very disconcerting as it tried to pull you back and towards the car you were passing. No crash detection fortunately otherwise the brakes would presumably come on as it pulled back towards the car I was passing.

 

[JamesT]

I had a VW Golf rental car with lane assist which I didnt know it had. Driving along a dual carriageway and overtaking something provided a weird sensation that I was going over some kind of camber or high spot where the lane lines were. Eventually worked out it was lane assist thanks to the rude messages about keep in lane or hold the steering wheel (or something like that) that appeared on the dash. So what was happening was as I was about to cross the lane lines the car tried to steer back into lane hence the weird sensation. Provided you held the steering wheel fairly tightly you just got the weird rolling sensation but if held lightly it was very disconcerting as it tried to pull you back and towards the car you were passing. No crash detection fortunately otherwise the brakes would presumably come on as it pulled back towards the car I was passing.

Does that mean you were overtaking something without indicating? The description on VW's website implies lane assist only kicks in when you're crossing lines and the indicators aren't on.

 

[Graham H]

Does that mean you were overtaking something without indicating? The description on VW's website implies lane assist only kicks in when you're crossing lines and the indicators aren't on.

Good point and that would be a good feature to switch off the so called assistance but I was definitely indicating....most of the time ! and it did do it whether indicating or not.