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EMR Overcrowding

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142blue

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90 minutes by coach via the Snake Pass today then transfer to a train for onward travel. That part normally takes nearer 40 minutes.

TPE were offering a minimal service today due to their dispute and were advising users not to travel. Just as well because they couldn't get through the Hope Valley.

Northern were also stopped due to a problem in Totley Tunnel last night so they too were advising users not to travel.

All in all an EMR ticket was your best bet today between Sheffield and Manchester!

.
Although last week the line was open but EMR choose not to operate west of Sheffield although tickets have been sold online for services that do not even exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

EMR are still running the reduced strike timetable on Sunday's so no trains west of Sheffield.

When i asked why the timetable had not been restored as the industrial action was resolved weeks ago i was advised due to Covid causing low passenger numbers and high staff absences, this is also the reason for the missing catering.
Absolute tosh. Low passenger numbers, are they having a laugh. Some EMR services you can't even get people on them especially when there is a two hour gap between them.

Quite possibly the worst train franchise
 
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Adam0984

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Why when the line is open from Sheffield towards Manchester do they make zero effort to run trains on a Sunday

Last week, nothing. No coaches

This week. Nothing. Least they sent coaches

The deterioration I'm seeing of our railway network is alarming and these are one of the worst offenders.
This week there was coaches on Sunday because of the TPE strike, all 3 operators paid collectively for coaches at strategic points to cope with over crowding because of the lack of TPEs
 

Killingworth

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This week there was coaches on Sunday because of the TPE strike, all 3 operators paid collectively for coaches at strategic points to cope with over crowding because of the lack of TPEs

Good, the TPE absence is explained but lack of EMR trains still isn't. The industry seems to have a death wish.
 

skyhigh

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Good, the TPE absence is explained but lack of EMR trains still isn't. The industry seems to have a death wish.
'The industry' isn't really making decisions on service levels any more though - they're simply implementing what the DfT allows them to.
 

Ianigsy

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Although last week the line was open but EMR choose not to operate west of Sheffield although tickets have been sold online for services that do not even exist.
The Wednesday before last I was certainly sold a ticket with reservation for travel on the Sunday afternoon between Liverpool and Manchester.

Ended up on the Northern stopper, which was terminated at Oxford Road for want of a guard. There's a lot of competition for the "worst franchise" title these days.
 

LowLevel

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Rumours suggest EMR Sunday services will return to Liverpool from the 27th February.
 

STINT47

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After reading this thread if the goverment is serious about leveling up so all areas have a London service quality then they're is a lot of investment required.
 

Killingworth

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Rumours suggest EMR Sunday services will return to Liverpool from the 27th February.
Shows as planned on RTT for both 20th and 27th but on this route that's no guide at all.

1L06 has been showing as running from Liverpool every Monday morning for months, but by the day it has been pulled every time, as I'm sure it will be next Monday.
 

RailWonderer

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Can 170s be used on the Norwich Liverpool route? 156s have been turning up regularly on that route yet 158s and 170s are being used on shorter distance routes. I know Central Trains used to run 170s on it but is the traction still signed by crews?
 

Sleepy

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Can 170s be used on the Norwich Liverpool route? 156s have been turning up regularly on that route yet 158s and 170s are being used on shorter distance routes. I know Central Trains used to run 170s on it but is the traction still signed by crews?
Certainly Norwich / Nottingham crews learning them last year, but will be time expired if they're not working them at all ?
 

LowLevel

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Certainly Norwich / Nottingham crews learning them last year, but will be time expired if they're not working them at all ?
The Norwich crews maintain their traction knowledge mostly by working Ivanhoe line trains to Leicester.

Almost all Nottingham guards and many drivers sign 170s now and work them on various different routes, same as Derby local guards/mixed drivers. Liverpool requires a platform train interface exercise before the units can go up there.
 

ChrisC

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After reading this thread if the goverment is serious about leveling up so all areas have a London service quality then they're is a lot of investment required.
I think what most people who have to use the EMR regional routes really want just now is the Pre Covid timetables to be restored, with trains that actually turn up, and are not so short formed that passengers are left behind on platforms. That would be a good start to the levelling up process without even getting anywhere near the same quality of service as in London.
 

tom1649

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Should have kept the 153s for strengthening services. I can't be the only one who foresaw these problems.
 

nottsnurse

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Should have kept the 153s for strengthening services. I can't be the only one who foresaw these problems.
Wasn't the issue that 153s wouldn't meet PRM TSI requirements without significant work being done to them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Quite possibly the worst train franchise
Fully agree.

I previously used EMT regularly to travel between Nottingham and Leicester/London and their service, right to the end of their franchise, was excellent. Under EMR the quality of service has collapsed to the point where I can't rely upon them anymore.

For journeys to Leicester I now drive and to London I either drive or take the coach.
 
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STINT47

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My thoughts too. No excuse not to run a service on a Sunday

I phoned customer services earlier and EMR have advised me that they have a dedicated team working hard to restore the timetable but due to covid they have had to make some service cuts. They are closely monitoring the situation and are aware that some services are now starting to get a bit busier again. As soon as they can more services will be reintroduced. We should remain patient and allow them to work on it in what to be fair must be a dfficult situation for them.
 

dosxuk

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If EMR are having that many issues, why don't they do like TFW did, have a permeant standby Rail Rep at a key point where the overcrowding happens.
Because there are two other operators who can take up the slack - why bother paying for a coach when you can just arrange ticket acceptance on TPE or Northern? Obviously this all falls apart when those two operators have their own issues, or even just one of them, as then 13 carriages worth of people have to climb into two or three. Although there's also a good argument that overcrowding between Sheffield & Manchester isn't an EMR problem alone.

In hindsight, a fleet of 3 car 172's should probably have been tacked onto the LM order 10 years ago that could be dedicated to Norwich-Liverpool services. Moving to 3 (east) / 6 (west) cars would have given a decent uptick in capacity, hopefully signalling the return of luggage space and a few tables. 100mph sprinter differential compatible stock is all the route needs, 125mph with the associated penalties is just a waste of space and fuel. Plus they'd still have a good 20 years life in them, by which point we might be able to think about bi-mode stock for the route. However, decades of indecisiveness about the route, future stock options, operators and so on have resulted in a mess that nobody wants to deal with. It feels like the time for brand new stock has passed, but there are few options better than the existing 158s and they're approaching 30 years old.

I've been using the route on a semi regular basis for over 20 years now. EMT, in general, got the route right. Central could be hit or miss (and are to blame for the stock issues since with their completely fabricated usage statistics which were used to allocate stock when central was split). EMR though have been a complete disaster zone - of six trips between Sheffield and Norwich since they took over I'm yet to pay for a ticket as they've all been fully refunded due to delays - most of them within their control.
 

142blue

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I phoned customer services earlier and EMR have advised me that they have a dedicated team working hard to restore the timetable but due to covid they have had to make some service cuts. They are closely monitoring the situation and are aware that some services are now starting to get a bit busier again. As soon as they can more services will be reintroduced. We should remain patient and allow them to work on it in what to be fair must be a dfficult situation for them.
Can still maintain a service Mon to Sat but run naff all on a Sunday. I call BS on that
 

RailWonderer

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In hindsight, a fleet of 3 car 172's should probably have been tacked onto the LM order 10 years ago that could be dedicated to Norwich-Liverpool services
Wait, why would an operator order rolling stock for a route they don't operate? Which brings me onto yet again more people glorifying EMT for their IC service which was great because the Meridians were fresh and new and they had refurbished HSTs as well, but their regional operation was in tatters with a scarce supply of 153s and 156s and frequent delays and cancellations. They were one of the worst rated operators in the 2000s.
 
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talltim

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Well, as I said, my experience is that if EMR automatically withdrew all coaches with inoperable PA, there would be chaos on its network. I don’t think I’m exaggerating; it’s a really big problem, and not just on Liverpool-Norwich.
You seem to be ignoring that the answer is that they fix it properly
 

ScotGG

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After reading this thread if the goverment is serious about leveling up so all areas have a London service quality then they're is a lot of investment required.
You don't really believe them do you?

Govt and the Treasury are now happy for severe cuts in London to match some other parts of the country rather than improve parts of the country.
 

Domh245

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Wait, why would an operator order rolling stock for a route they don't operate?

Ask southern! FCC's fleet of 377s, as well as the 387/1s were ordered by Southern

Or indeed, ask LM themselves, who ordered 10x 350s for First Transpennine (that they've since regained)

The Department of Transport were fully involved in the process, and made the request for London Midland to procure the additional vehicles for First TransPennine Express on their behalf. They are also going to be providing the necessary £41 million increase in payment to the two Franchises to get the order off the ground
 

Killingworth

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I phoned customer services earlier and EMR have advised me that they have a dedicated team working hard to restore the timetable but due to covid they have had to make some service cuts. They are closely monitoring the situation and are aware that some services are now starting to get a bit busier again. As soon as they can more services will be reintroduced. We should remain patient and allow them to work on it in what to be fair must be a dfficult situation for them.
Yes, and most of have tried to be patient, but Covid has been with us for almost 2 years. Railway issues go deeper than that. We know there are stock cascade issues. Train maintenance and staff training may be in arrears.

On many (most?) routes it's still impossible to tell how busy they really are compared with 2019. When full timetables are reintroduced, all trains actually run, and users report they keep to time, word will get round and many will come back. How many? How soon? Nobody knows.

For business and commuting journeys the timings of outward and return journeys are crucial, also the availabilty of a later reserve train. I never used the last trains of the day from London to Hull or Sheffield but their existence meant I didn't have to rush away. Make either of those main journeys inconvenient and it's not one journey that's lost but two. That all but empty unused late train may be a factor too.

There are two leisure day trips I'd like to make with an old friend from Sheffield. XC aren't running 2 tph to Newcastle so we'd probably have to go via Leeds reducing our time at the desired destination by 40 minutes or so. That trip has been deferred for over a year. A trip from Dore to Peterborough can be done by EMR without changes, or via Doncaster with 2 changes - except the 8.28 departure hasn't been running since June. We won't chance that either.

Chickens and eggs. The marketing departments can come up with as many fancy TV marketing ads as they like, but when my wife and I board an EMR train to Manchester at about 7.40 on a Saturday morning and find ourselves expected to stand it doesn't encourage us to try again. Fortunately good humoured Owls fans volunteered their seats for us but that's not the point.

Give us the full services with facilities that make us comfortable and more of us will return more often. The fact that so many still pile into the overloaded trains shows there is still demand. I hear enthusiasm for trains from all ages. Lets have more of them when they're needed.

To think we wanted rid of Pacers and 153s. Even the able can't get to toilets on many EMR services.
 

dosxuk

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Wait, why would an operator order rolling stock for a route they don't operate?

Obviously I don't mean LM order the trains, I mean they should have been ordered at the same time, the same as the LO and Chiltern ones were.

Which brings me onto yet again more people glorifying EMT for their IC service which was great because the Meridians were fresh and new and they had refurbished HSTs as well, but their regional operation was in tatters with a scarce supply of 153s and 156s and frequent delays and cancellations. They were one of the worst rated operators in the 2000s.

EMT, once they got their feet under themselves, was a breath of fresh air compared to the latter days of Central, where the long distance routes were regularly turned short, often at short notice - Liverpool - Norwich was Manchester - Ely more often than not. Plus there was no way of knowing if it was a shortform or not - the unit allocations were that random (one hour would have a 2 car 156, the next a 5 car 170). Yes, EMT were stuck with the stock shortage that continues to this day affecting the regional routes, but it's not like anything has got better in that regard, in fact it's far worse now under EMR.
 

Stampy

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Evening bus services between Nottingham and Mansfield on the direct Stagecoach Pronto route are no longer as frequent as they were. The last buses are now quite a bit earlier than the last trains

Indeed.

Somebody on the football Forum I'm a member of, posted that they recently planned to catch the 2210 train [2D28 Worksop to Nottingham] back from Mansfield after a match there - only to find out that the train was cancelled.....

There was also no buses - so him and two mates ended up having to get a TAXI back to Nottingham!!!


Think I might drive when my team play Mansfield away on 2nd April...........
 

43102EMR

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Obviously I don't mean LM order the trains, I mean they should have been ordered at the same time, the same as the LO and Chiltern ones were.



EMT, once they got their feet under themselves, was a breath of fresh air compared to the latter days of Central, where the long distance routes were regularly turned short, often at short notice - Liverpool - Norwich was Manchester - Ely more often than not. Plus there was no way of knowing if it was a shortform or not - the unit allocations were that random (one hour would have a 2 car 156, the next a 5 car 170). Yes, EMT were stuck with the stock shortage that continues to this day affecting the regional routes, but it's not like anything has got better in that regard, in fact it's far worse now under EMR.
EMT did fantastic with what they had - despite being a zero-growth franchise, they managed to completely turn the tide and make it one of the most reliable services out there.

I still wonder what would’ve happened had Stagecoach and Arriva not got disqualified from bidding…
 

LowLevel

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Obviously I don't mean LM order the trains, I mean they should have been ordered at the same time, the same as the LO and Chiltern ones were.



EMT, once they got their feet under themselves, was a breath of fresh air compared to the latter days of Central, where the long distance routes were regularly turned short, often at short notice - Liverpool - Norwich was Manchester - Ely more often than not. Plus there was no way of knowing if it was a shortform or not - the unit allocations were that random (one hour would have a 2 car 156, the next a 5 car 170). Yes, EMT were stuck with the stock shortage that continues to this day affecting the regional routes, but it's not like anything has got better in that regard, in fact it's far worse now under EMR.
I'm not sure really agree - Central Trains 2005 - 2007 had a massive influx of nearly new 170, fairly new 158 (ex TPE and the vile green units back from Wales ex Wales and Borders split) and brand new 350 stock and became very consistent generally speaking - it's a shame they didn't have that level of resource before they were already scheduled to be broken up.
 

43102EMR

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I'm not sure really agree - Central Trains 2005 - 2007 had a massive influx of nearly new 170, fairly new 158 (ex TPE and the vile green units back from Wales ex Wales and Borders split) and brand new 350 stock and became very consistent generally speaking - it's a shame they didn't have that level of resource before they were already scheduled to be broken up.
For me, the main problem with the franchise split was the division of the 170s, which left EMT getting none. Now EMR are trying to pass these off as “new” trains when the reality is they’re just returning having spent over a decade working elsewhere. Not to mention they’re in a rather shoddy state…
 

ChrisC

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Indeed.

Somebody on the football Forum I'm a member of, posted that they recently planned to catch the 2210 train [2D28 Worksop to Nottingham] back from Mansfield after a match there - only to find out that the train was cancelled.....

There was also no buses - so him and two mates ended up having to get a TAXI back to Nottingham!!!


Think I might drive when my team play Mansfield away on 2nd April...........
I was recently reading some interesting discussion in another thread discussing level of train services in various cities in relation to the size of their population. This got me looking at the population of Mansfield and other places along the southern section of the Robin Hood Line that saw their daytime train frequency reduced by 50% with the EMR temporary timetables. Unfortunately these temporary timetables are no longer temporary on this route and the full pre covid timetable is not being restored in May or perhaps not even for the rest of this year at least.

Mansfield 106,000
Sutton in Ashfield 48,000
Kirkby in Ashfield 25,000
Hucknall 32,000
Bulwell 28,000

That’s a total population of 239,000 without counting the smaller communities along the line and anywhere north of Mansfield towards Worksop. I know people have said this before but would a line in London and the South East, with a population of that size, have its train service cut by half with no date for the full service to return.
 
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