Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Skie]

Which units are the battery units again....I know 777002 is?

002 was just a test fitting, the real battery packs are larger and fitted to the last 7 units in the fleet. Units 047-053

 

[Ribbleman]

002 was just a test fitting, the real battery packs are larger and fitted to the last 7 units in the fleet. Units 047-053

The battery fitted to 002 was borrowed from a unit that Stadler were to build for TfW, just to prove the concept of battery propulsion.

 

[MR-507508]

With the transfer of No 777007 and 009 back to Kirkdale from Crewe last night, No's 20142, 20007, 20189 and 20205 (top and tail) doing the honours, below is the updated list of the location of the UK Class 777's.

Current locations:
Kirkdale = 001, 002, 003, 004, 005, 007, 009, 010, 016 and 018.
Crewe C.S. = 006, 008, 012 and 014.

My thanks to 'Hantsuk67' and 'MarkY' for updates. Further information / updates always welcome.

Are any units planned to move back to Crewe in the next week? Seems a lot of units to have stored at Kirkdale depot, alongside the 507/508 units.
Does anyone know what the maximum capacity is for the 777 units at Kirkdale (alongside the current fleet)?

 

[MattRat]

Are any units planned to move back to Crewe in the next week? Seems a lot of units to have stored at Kirkdale depot, alongside the 507/508 units.
Does anyone know what the maximum capacity is for the 777 units at Kirkdale (alongside the current fleet)?

I doubt it'll go any higher just yet. From what others have posted, modifications are being made for guard operation, and I don't think all units have that yet, amd if any are at Kirkdale, they'll be moved to Crewe to have the modifications made.

 

[jamesst]

Are any units planned to move back to Crewe in the next week? Seems a lot of units to have stored at Kirkdale depot, alongside the 507/508 units.
Does anyone know what the maximum capacity is for the 777 units at Kirkdale (alongside the current fleet)?

8 for 777s at kirkdale, 22 for 507/8s

 

[MR-507508]

8 for 777s at kirkdale, 22 for 507/8s

Thanks, so there over max. capacity for 777s at the moment?

 

[jamesst]

Thanks, so there over max. capacity for 777s at the moment?

Sorry I totally forgot 507006 isn't blocking a siding anymore so there may be a bit more room for manoeuvre there. 10 will be the absolute max for 777s, in fact im very surprised there's that many there.

 

[Ribbleman]

I doubt it'll go any higher just yet. From what others have posted, modifications are being made for guard operation, and I don't think all units have that yet, amd if any are at Kirkdale, they'll be moved to Crewe to have the modifications made.

I don’t believe that the modifications at Crewe story has ever been substantiated by a reliable source. Nobody has reported units entering the workshop there. When I asked Merseytravel’s Programme Director, David Powell, about the rumour, he was quite definite in his reply that sets were being sent to Crewe simply for storage, replacing the earlier arrangement at Warrington. They are being exchanged in turn for sets at Kirkdale to allow each unit to complete the required freedom from defect running, usually through repetitive journeys between Sandhills and Southport. Only after that mileage is satisfactorily attained is each set accepted by Merseytravel.
If anyone has any definite knowledge of work being carried out at Crewe, through personal observation or close contacts then I’m sure that many of us wouid be interested to hear about it.

 

[MattRat]

I don’t believe that the modifications at Crewe story has ever been substantiated by a reliable source. Nobody has reported units entering the workshop there. When I asked Merseytravel’s Programme Director, David Powell, about the rumour, he was quite definite in his reply that sets were being sent to Crewe simply for storage, replacing the earlier arrangement at Warrington. They are being exchanged in turn for sets at Kirkdale to allow each unit to complete the required freedom from defect running, usually through repetitive journeys between Sandhills and Southport. Only after that mileage is satisfactorily attained is each set accepted by Merseytravel.
If anyone has any definite knowledge of work being carried out at Crewe, through personal observation or close contacts then I’m sure that many of us wouid be interested to hear about it.

I was just referring to what I've seen posted earlier. I'm more than willing to accept other sides of the story. Out of curiosity, do you know which units have and haven't completed their mileage tests?

 

[Pacef8]

Steve rotherham mentioned on the radio this week that he expects units running and the dispute to be resolved by the summer.

 

[jamesst]

Steve rotherham mentioned on the radio this week that he expects units running and the dispute to be resolved by the summer.

Good luck with that...

 

[8A Rail]

Steve rotherham mentioned on the radio this week that he expects units running and the dispute to be resolved by the summer.

Did he state which year though?

 

[Pacef8]

Very good

 

[Ribbleman]

I was just referring to what I've seen posted earlier. I'm more than willing to accept other sides of the story. Out of curiosity, do you know which units have and haven't completed their mileage tests?

Sorry, I haven’t kept track of which sets have passed that stage, though I believe it to be at least 7, which was the minimum thought to be required before any could be used in service, being 3 for the Kirkby line, 2 for cover and 2 for driver training. However, I have since heard mention that the Ormskirk line will now be the first to be converted. All this is academic until staff negotiations are concluded.
As a local taxpayer I have to wonder why these negotiations were not carried out months ago as it is 2 years since it was agreed that each train would have a crew of two. The continuing delay is at a cost of moving sets between Kirkdale and storage and the need to continue paying Angel Trains to lease the 507 and 508 fleets.

 

[MR-507508]

To the best of my knowledge I believe the following units have completed their fault-free running (in this order); 777; 010, 008, 014, 012, 006, 001, 004.
I think 016 and 018 may also have completed within the last month.
I have seen images of 777003 out last week on the Southport line, so this seems like its currently on the fault-free running.

Does anyone know if any 8 car testing took place on the Southport line during daytime last week?
A relative of mine overheard a passenger on the train saying an 8 car was currently running on the Southport line during the day.

 

[507020]

8 for 777s at kirkdale, 22 for 507/8s

So if there is only spare capacity for 8 new 777s but they could fit 22 extra 507/508s there in addition to what is normally stabled, what is the point of that if obviously no more 507/508s are going to be built? Kirkdale must have the capacity to stable most of the 777 fleet once the all the 507/508s have gone, except a few stabled at Southport and on the Wirral.

I don’t believe that the modifications at Crewe story has ever been substantiated by a reliable source. Nobody has reported units entering the workshop there. When I asked Merseytravel’s Programme Director, David Powell, about the rumour, he was quite definite in his reply that sets were being sent to Crewe simply for storage, replacing the earlier arrangement at Warrington. They are being exchanged in turn for sets at Kirkdale to allow each unit to complete the required freedom from defect running, usually through repetitive journeys between Sandhills and Southport. Only after that mileage is satisfactorily attained is each set accepted by Merseytravel.
If anyone has any definite knowledge of work being carried out at Crewe, through personal observation or close contacts then I’m sure that many of us wouid be interested to hear about it.

Whether or not they were carried out at Crewe, the modifications have certainly been carried out on some units. Some are seen to have had guards controls installed while some still haven’t. There is also certainly stabling at Crewe and no longer at Warrington. I passed Crewe yesterday and it seems that the 777s there are now located in a shed on the far side of Crewe rather than adjacent to the main line. Fault free running is of course now carried out in the daytime mostly between Sandhills and Southport.

Sorry, I haven’t kept track of which sets have passed that stage, though I believe it to be at least 7, which was the minimum thought to be required before any could be used in service, being 3 for the Kirkby line, 2 for cover and 2 for driver training. However, I have since heard mention that the Ormskirk line will now be the first to be converted. All this is academic until staff negotiations are concluded.
As a local taxpayer I have to wonder why these negotiations were not carried out months ago as it is 2 years since it was agreed that each train would have a crew of two. The continuing delay is at a cost of moving sets between Kirkdale and storage and the need to continue paying Angel Trains to lease the 507 and 508 fleets.

I have also lost count of which units have been accepted by Merseytravel, but have seen mixed reports of either the Ormskirk or Kirkby lines being the first to be converted due to the convenient location of Kirkdale depot, but Ormskirk may now be more likely than Kirkby with the ongoing infrastructure works at Headbolt Lane. The Blackburn/Wigan service will likely be cut back from Kirkby to Rainford at some point, only being reinstated to Headbolt Lane. I don’t know what alterations may be made to the Merseyrail service temporarily if redoubling work is to commence at Kirkby. The negotiations have of course not been completed due to a certain Covid-19 pandemic but this may also be purely academic. A more pressing matter is why exactly Angel Trains are able to continue collecting leasing fees on a life expired fleet which they should have relinquished by now, but is this really a cost when the operator Merseyrail owned by Serco/Abellio is paying them and will pay leasing fees to Merseytravel for the 777s? It is more like lost revenue.

To the best of my knowledge I believe the following units have completed their fault-free running (in this order); 777; 010, 008, 014, 012, 006, 001, 004.
I think 016 and 018 may also have completed within the last month.
I have seen images of 777003 out last week on the Southport line, so this seems like its currently on the fault-free running.

Does anyone know if any 8 car testing took place on the Southport line during daytime last week?
A relative of mine overheard a passenger on the train saying an 8 car was currently running on the Southport line during the day.

That list does sound about right. 777003 was the first to arrive at Kirkdale in January 2020 and completed extensive nighttime testing on the entire network in the months before a 2nd unit arrived, so I am surprised that it hasn’t already completed fault free running. It also doesn’t have guards door controls.

8 car 777s on the Southport line must terminate at Hillside and I doubt this is likely to happen in the daytime as there are more likely to be issues with this than a single unit. I also don’t know if an 8 car will fit in the reversing siding at Sandhills.

Much information about their introduction can be obtained simply by asking the next time one is at Southport.

 

[MattRat]

Sorry, I haven’t kept track of which sets have passed that stage, though I believe it to be at least 7, which was the minimum thought to be required before any could be used in service, being 3 for the Kirkby line, 2 for cover and 2 for driver training. However, I have since heard mention that the Ormskirk line will now be the first to be converted. All this is academic until staff negotiations are concluded.
As a local taxpayer I have to wonder why these negotiations were not carried out months ago as it is 2 years since it was agreed that each train would have a crew of two. The continuing delay is at a cost of moving sets between Kirkdale and storage and the need to continue paying Angel Trains to lease the 507 and 508 fleets.

Politics. It makes everything messy. However, what's important is that we know the trains will very likely be ready when the negotiations wrap up, and because the negotiations will be the final step, we the public can actually speed up the process via public pressure.

 

[jamesst]

So if there is only spare capacity for 8 new 777s but they could fit 22 extra 507/508s there in addition to what is normally stabled, what is the point of that if obviously no more 507/508s are going to be built? Kirkdale must have the capacity to stable most of the 777 fleet once the all the 507/508s have gone, except a few stabled at Southport and on the Wirral.

Whether or not they were carried out at Crewe, the modifications have certainly been carried out on some units. Some are seen to have had guards controls installed while some still haven’t. There is also certainly stabling at Crewe and no longer at Warrington. I passed Crewe yesterday and it seems that the 777s there are now located in a shed on the far side of Crewe rather than adjacent to the main line. Fault free running is of course now carried out in the daytime mostly between Sandhills and Southport.

I have also lost count of which units have been accepted by Merseytravel, but have seen mixed reports of either the Ormskirk or Kirkby lines being the first to be converted due to the convenient location of Kirkdale depot, but Ormskirk may now be more likely than Kirkby with the ongoing infrastructure works at Headbolt Lane. The Blackburn/Wigan service will likely be cut back from Kirkby to Rainford at some point, only being reinstated to Headbolt Lane. I don’t know what alterations may be made to the Merseyrail service temporarily if redoubling work is to commence at Kirkby. The negotiations have of course not been completed due to a certain Covid-19 pandemic but this may also be purely academic. A more pressing matter is why exactly Angel Trains are able to continue collecting leasing fees on a life expired fleet which they should have relinquished by now, but is this really a cost when the operator Merseyrail owned by Serco/Abellio is paying them and will pay leasing fees to Merseytravel for the 777s? It is more like lost revenue.

That list does sound about right. 777003 was the first to arrive at Kirkdale in January 2020 and completed extensive nighttime testing on the entire network in the months before a 2nd unit arrived, so I am surprised that it hasn’t already completed fault free running. It also doesn’t have guards door controls.

8 car 777s on the Southport line must terminate at Hillside and I doubt this is likely to happen in the daytime as there are more likely to be issues with this than a single unit. I also don’t know if an 8 car will fit in the reversing siding at Sandhills.

Much information about their introduction can be obtained simply by asking the next time one is at Southport.

You read it wrong. Capacity at the depot is currently a maximum number of 22 507/8s and 8 777s. Obviously once the 507/8s have gone there will be a considerably larger amount of Capacity for the 777s

 

[L401CJF]

As a local taxpayer I have to wonder why these negotiations were not carried out months ago as it is 2 years since it was agreed that each train would have a crew of two.

Take it with a pinch of salt as you know how rumours spread in the workplace, but speaking to a mate of mine currently in training as a guard, one of their trainers has told them the negotiations are down to Merseytravel wanting the new trains dwell time at stations below a certain number of seconds.

It had apparently been provisionally agreed that the guard would remain as a second safety critical member of staff onboard, but they wanted something along the lines of driver release the doors, guard observe, and guard signal the driver to close the doors or something like that. According to a trainer they wanted the guard to at least dispatch the train fully, but merseytravel say it takes 6 seconds too long or something daft like that.

Again take it with a pinch of salt, and I'm sure somebody with more Knowledge will correct or confirm the rumours.

Speaking to a guard I've known for years the other day and he was saying there's not much "news" going around about the new stock, but apparently some sort of plan has been agreed provisionally, but could still be rejected by the drivers union if it goes through.

 

[Skie]

Does anyone know if any 8 car testing took place on the Southport line during daytime last week?
A relative of mine overheard a passenger on the train saying an 8 car was currently running on the Southport line during the day.

There was an 8 car running last night to test the upgraded power supply, so unlikely to have been out during service hours previously.

 

[MR-507508]

There was an 8 car running last night to test the upgraded power supply, so unlikely to have been out during service hours previously.

Was there just the one 8 car running last night/early hours?
I noticed 5S07 running, with 5S11 following behind-was one an 8 car and one a 4 car?

 

[Liverpool 507]

8 car 777s on the Southport line must terminate at Hillside and I doubt this is likely to happen in the daytime as there are more likely to be issues with this than a single unit. I also don’t know if an 8 car will fit in the reversing siding at Sandhills.

Much information about their introduction can be obtained simply by asking the next time one is at Southport.

Sandhills Reversing Siding can accommodate x3 507/8s.

 

[8A Rail]

Sandhills Reversing Siding can accommodate x3 507/8s.

So in theory two Class 777's then?

 

[karlbbb]

So in theory two Class 777's then?

Wiki suggests the 777s are 65m vs the 61m of the 507/508s, and using the "Measure" tool on Google Maps suggests the siding is 180m so it seems very close to squeeze 3x 507/508s in there, but certainly 2x 777 would fit.

 

[urbophile]

It had apparently been provisionally agreed that the guard would remain as a second safety critical member of staff onboard, but they wanted something along the lines of driver release the doors, guard observe, and guard signal the driver to close the doors or something like that. According to a trainer they wanted the guard to at least dispatch the train fully, but merseytravel say it takes 6 seconds too long or something daft like that.

If the driver can't close the doors until they get a signal from the guard, won't that increase the time compared to the guard being able to close the doors themself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the driver can't close the doors until they get a signal from the guard, won't that increase the time compared to the guard being able to close the doors themself?

It sounds a bit like ten-bell, which is indeed a spectacular* waste of time compared with classic guard dispatch.

OBS style working (but with guard mandatory) would allow the guard to hold the train if desired without wasting a load of time.

* Well, 2 or 3 seconds. Which doesn't sound a lot - but don't forget that 2 minutes had to be added to Ormskirk-Liverpool when hustle alarms were introduced. Lots of "a few seconds" become minutes.

 

[Skie]

If the driver can't close the doors until they get a signal from the guard, won't that increase the time compared to the guard being able to close the doors themself?

Guard door dispatch means leaving the local door open for entrapment checks, and then closing the local door, and then giving the driver two bells. Driver checks monitors are clear and then takes power.

Guard ready to dispatch means the driver uses the body side monitors to ensure all doors have closed safely before taking power. It does save time, but relies on technology rather than a guard popping his head out and watching the doors shut.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest I don't know why there's all this faff. If they are going to have guards, and they are going to be involved in dispatch, why not just fit guard panels and have them do it the normal way? Having drivers glance at the monitors before taking power in addition to that would make it safer still, and would have prevented a couple of the well-known incidents. I'm really not sure what is gained by coming up with something new.

I would be in support of driver release, that said, as it saves a couple of seconds over guard release, but I'm not sure that is really a big issue? It's used in lots of places. As it's a closed system, fitting some sort of kit to prevent wrong-side wouldn't be hard.

 

[karlbbb]

To be honest I don't know why there's all this faff. If they are going to have guards, and they are going to be involved in dispatch, why not just fit guard panels and have them do it the normal way? Having drivers glance at the monitors before taking power in addition to that would make it safer still, and would have prevented a couple of the well-known incidents. I'm really not sure what is gained by coming up with something new.

I would be in support of driver release, that said, as it saves a couple of seconds over guard release, but I'm not sure that is really a big issue? It's used in lots of places. As it's a closed system, fitting some sort of kit to prevent wrong-side wouldn't be hard.

Would it be too simplistic/controversial to suggest that reduced guard function/responsibility allows for a lower guard salary? I think I read the funds for the 777s were granted based on switching to driver-only operation and therefore with no guard salaries? If that's not the case then my point doesn't stand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it be too simplistic/controversial to suggest that reduced guard function/responsibility allows for a lower guard salary? I think I read the funds for the 777s were granted based on switching to driver-only operation and therefore with no guard salaries? If that's not the case then my point doesn't stand.

I understand they've found other funding, though I'm not quite sure from where. Cuts to things like booking office hours (where a strike would have little or no effect) are a possibility but I don't think they've said exactly what it is officially.

I doubt they'd get away with any pay cuts; the Unions would definitely call a strike and it would be well supported.