Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Peterthegreat]

Yes I should have mentioned that, sorry! I believe the bus is still going to be 2bp3h though.

Indeed. They might have gained some bonus points by running the bus hourly. But no.

 

[robbeech]

Absolutely! We are being "sacrificied".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2022 ==


Except the .66 local stopper is a bus from Monday!

Yes I should have mentioned that, sorry! I believe the bus is still going to be 2bp3h though.

In theory. As mentioned above it’s quite normal to see buses missing in replacement timetables when there isn’t a massive shortage of bus drivers so my advice would be to not rely on all (or any) of the buses running.

 

[Peterthegreat]

In theory. As mentioned above it’s quite normal to see buses missing in replacement timetables when there isn’t a massive shortage of bus drivers so my advice would be to not rely on all (or any) of the buses running.

I will be monitoring closely!

 

[northernchris]

Dare I suggest the bus company might be having the same problem but being less honest about it?

It is frustrating for all, the TOC included, but I really do not see why the criticism is in any way legitimate. The only thing I would say is that if this is going to be the case in the very long term it is probably time to start planning properly reduced timetables with longer trains rather than just dropping diagrams, though I am conscious that you could probably not apply those until at least December.

Northern do deserve the criticism, they implemented a timetable in December which was then cut shortly after, and has now been further reduced. They don't reallocate the carriages from services which have been removed, and are still shortforming on the day. There's no way all available units are in use, so I suspect this is a cost cutting exercise

If a temporary timetable needs to be introduced passengers should be given suitable notice - a banner on the top of the website appearing on a Friday afternoon for changes being implemented the following Monday isn't acceptable. Even when the December cuts appeared Northern briefed the stakeholders in advance but passengers weren't notified until a few days before the changes took effect. Likewise pre-planned cancellations shouldn't be able to be implemented with a few hours notice, it just makes using the trains more stressful having to constantly check if the service you're wishing to use still exists

The OLR have been a huge let down, whilst they can't be blamed for Covid and the resultant shortages in productive crew, they need to accept responsibility for the lack of capacity, lack of communication and lack of customer service. Unfortunately I don't think anything will change whilst Nick Donovan and Tricia Williams remain in their roles as ultimately they are responsible for the current shambles

 

[geoffk]

Isn't this all about the railway's heavy dependence on overtime and rest-day working just to operate the timetable, whereas it should be used for training and cover for abnormal sickness levels (such as we are having at the moment)? But recruiting more staff takes time and costs more money and no doubt the DfT/Treasury are happy for things just to muddle along, after all it's only "the north" which is affected! Meanwhile SWR plans to revert to hourly Waterloo - Exeter and Weymouth from 21st February.

 

[northwichcat]

Cancelling Trains due to inoperative heating when they've already cancelled the one before and the one after is not doing much for their already appalling reputation. Especially given the number of trains that operate in service every day with inoperative heating and never get fixed. Me thinks there's a little fib here.

Is this a new policy? I've been on numerous Northern trains which have either had no heating in winter or had heating on when it's a hot summer day.

ASLEF are currently putting a ballot together for Northern drivers about this very issue of " temporary" reduced services.

What exactly does this relate to? If there's drivers who have no work to do due to reduced timetable then ASLEF are right to take action as the 'driver shortages' excuse would be a lie. But if there's no drivers available to undertake the work then wouldn't the issue relate to either overtime or training?

If a temporary timetable needs to be introduced passengers should be given suitable notice - a banner on the top of the website appearing on a Friday afternoon for changes being implemented the following Monday isn't acceptable. Even when the December cuts appeared Northern briefed the stakeholders in advance but passengers weren't notified until a few days before the changes took effect.

We are talking about the company who insisted Mid-Cheshire line passenger numbers only warranted a 2 hourly service due to COVID, despite it being a route identified as needing a half-hourly service pre-COVID. When they reluctantly added in one additional working in the morning peak primarily to assist with schools, they withdrew it without notice for the school holidays. As if it wouldn't be useful to anyone in school holidays!

Local councillors and MPs have been trying to get them to reinstate one of the morning peak time extras which hasn't run since March 2020 and is required to get around 80 school pupils to schools in the Altrincham area. Currently they have to arrive at 07:50 due to the 08:30 arrival not being in the current timetable, with the following arrival being 09:00. Northern's response each time is they'll reinstate it no later than December 2022!

 

[Moonshot]

In response to the above, the issue relates to the fact that ASLEF were not consulted before a reduced timetable was implemented. They also have issues with the company about Covid safety measures.

 

[30907]

So East Lancashire (Blackburn, Burnley, Accrington etc) would lose its direct trains to Blackpool? I wouldn't be happy with that and seems to me another example of operator convenience at the expense of passengers.

...apart from the hourly fast to BPN, you mean? Admittedly not from "etc" ie Nelson or Colne.

Makes perfect sense.

Although breaking out the crayons extend the Preston - Blackpool South services to run semi-fast to Blackburn (calling at say Bamber Bridge & Mills Hill) where it can make use of the west facing bay platform.

Not if it's a 4-car, which is needed in summer (at least Saturdays).

 

[Kite159]

...apart from the hourly fast to BPN, you mean? Admittedly not from "etc" ie Nelson or Colne.

Not if it's a 4-car, which is needed in summer (at least Saturdays).

I could swear I had a pair of 150s into that bay platform back when the hourly Manchester - Darwen - Blackburn service ran.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I could swear I had a pair of 150s into that bay platform back when the hourly Manchester - Darwen - Blackburn service ran.

A 4 car Civity is 16 metres longer than a 4 car 150.

 

[Kite159]

A 4 car Civity is 16 metres longer than a 4 car 150.

Which will be an upgrade on the mix of sprinters that line currently gets. 195s would make good stoppers if it wasn't for their low density interior

 

[LOL The Irony]

Which will be an upgrade on the mix of sprinters that line currently gets. 195s would make good stoppers if it wasn't for their low density interior

I was talking from a perspective of would they fit in the platform.

 

[Halish Railway]

I could swear I had a pair of 150s into that bay platform back when the hourly Manchester - Darwen - Blackburn service ran.

Although a 156 + 150 combo probably can’t.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The MP for Sheffield Brightside & Hillsborough asked the Dept of T on 4/2

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, what steps is he taking to ensure that Northern trains can restore the currently suspended direct service from Meadowhall station to York.

Wendy Morton response 11/2

Operators are currently reviewing their timetables and budgets, and any service changes will be measured against this. Northern tells us there are several alternative rail options between Meadowhall and York however we will continue working with communities to identify specific concerns and help operators to develop the most effective timetable.

Interesting that she uses the word budgets in her response inferring that there are monetary tests being done here not just whether the operator has the staff or not. Also i guess its good being left to Northern but does feel they are running things to make life easy for them rather than consider what the passenger needs. Of course being OLR now they won't be critical.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-02-04/118602

 

[Peterthegreat]

The MP for Sheffield Brightside & Hillsborough asked the Dept of T on 4/2


Wendy Morton response 11/2

Interesting that she uses the word budgets in her response inferring that there are monetary tests being done here not just whether the operator has the staff or not. Also i guess its good being left to Northern but does feel they are running things to make life easy for them rather than consider what the passenger needs. Of course being OLR now they won't be critical.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-02-04/118602

Perhaps my MP (John Healey) should ask when are train services between Swinton and Doncaster going to be reintroduced.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Perhaps my MP (John Healey) should ask when are train services between Swinton and Doncaster going to be reintroduced.

To be fair my Tory MP has fielded many an enquiry from me over the years and has got a response back from DofT which he has sent onto me (well his minions do all the groundwork) most are non answers but occasional you get something more useful back. Good thing is they will respond to emails no need put pen to paper but you need to leave full name and address so they can be sure you are constituent.

People power is what is needed but people just accept there lot and too many on here defend the actions of Northern and other operators. As a franchise operator they would have been compelled to deliver the service specification now they are just excused their failings by their new masters.

 

[Peterthegreat]

To be fair my Tory MP has fielded many an enquiry from me over the years and has got a response back from DofT which he has sent onto me (well his minions do all the groundwork) most are non answers but occasional you get something more useful back. Good thing is they will respond to emails no need put pen to paper but you need to leave full name and address so they can be sure you are constituent.

People power is what is needed but people just accept there lot and too many on here defend the actions of Northern and other operators. As a franchise operator they would have been compelled to deliver the service specification now they are just excused their failings by their new masters.

Absolutely agree. I have been in touch with him several times and he is a pretty good constituency MP. He also manages to get responses that would take mere mortals weeks (if ever) to get. The only problem is he (obviously) is not totally au fait with the railway and perhaps accepts responses from the operators without question. I also agree with you regarding too many people just accepting things. These latest cuts are an absolute disgrace.

 

[Moonshot]

Absolutely agree. I have been in touch with him several times and he is a pretty good constituency MP. He also manages to get responses that would take mere mortals weeks (if ever) to get. The only problem is he (obviously) is not totally au fait with the railway and perhaps accepts responses from the operators without question. I also agree with you regarding too many people just accepting things. These latest cuts are an absolute disgrace.

The reality is that passenger numbers are down , and highly unlikely to return to the pre Covid levels. Therefore it makes sense not to waste any public money subsidising services which are little used. On the internal rumour mill, I heard an idea the other day that in my neck of the woods, the line from Blackburn to Clitheroe could be mothballed for passenger services and replaced with a permanent rail replacement bus service.

 

[Deerfold]

The reality is that passenger numbers are down , and highly unlikely to return to the pre Covid levels. Therefore it makes sense not to waste any public money subsidising services which are little used. On the internal rumour mill, I heard an idea the other day that in my neck of the woods, the line from Blackburn to Clitheroe could be mothballed for passenger services and replaced with a permanent rail replacement bus service.

Unfortunately, permanent rail replacement bus services tend not to be permanent (or as attractive as the rail services they replace).

 

[Moonshot]

Unfortunately, permanent rail replacement bus services tend not to be permanent (or as attractive as the rail services they replace).

Makes sense financially......maybe not so accepted politically.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The reality is that passenger numbers are down , and highly unlikely to return to the pre Covid levels. Therefore it makes sense not to waste any public money subsidising services which are little used. On the internal rumour mill, I heard an idea the other day that in my neck of the woods, the line from Blackburn to Clitheroe could be mothballed for passenger services and replaced with a permanent rail replacement bus service.

Passenger numbers may be down but nowhere near enough to decimate the service. Last week some trains were FULL and standing. People must get it out of their heads that trains are empty.

Passengers waiting yesterday at Swinton for a train to Doncaster.

 

[Ant158]

Makes sense financially......maybe not so accepted politically.

Passenger numbers may be down but nowhere near enough to decimate the service. Last week some trains were FULL and standing. People must get it out of their heads that trains are empty.

There is already a half hourly bus most of the day between Blackburn and Clitheroe Mon to Sat, getting rid of the train services would be a real pain for those travelling beyond Blackburn. Also would be such a backwards step. Surely reducing the frequency off peak would be a better option. Hopefully this doesn’t happen!

 

[Moonshot]

Passenger numbers may be down but nowhere near enough to decimate the service. Last week some trains were FULL and standing. People must get it out of their heads that trains are empty.

Passengers waiting yesterday at Swinton for a train to Doncaster. View attachment 110101

Considering I am train crew, I can see everyday what's empty and what's not. As an example, a trip from Clitheroe last week did not pick up a single passenger until Blackburn

 

[Peterthegreat]

Considering I am train crew, I can see everyday what's empty and what's not. As an example, a trip from Clitheroe last week did not pick up a single passenger until Blackburn

You may see what is happening in Clitheroe you don't see what is happening in South Yorkshire. I do.

 

[Killingworth]

Considering I am train crew, I can see everyday what's empty and what's not. As an example, a trip from Clitheroe last week did not pick up a single passenger until Blackburn

Cut any service and customers are lost, never to return. Put on a new service and it takes time to build regular custom. Simple business theory. Offer a service when customers want to buy and it may do well. Offer an identical service at the wrong time and few buy.

A rail service, a fish and chip shop, a bank the basics are the same. It's vicious business logic. If people don't want to buy the product it won't be offered. Except with railways we seem to continue operating some services long after they are economically justified. Other reasons to continue are introduced but there comes a point when the weight of that commercial logic will have to apply.

Every train that fails to run to timetable for whatever reason, be it temporarily withdrawn, cancelled at short notice or late, deters a few more users.

I've written on other threads about specific routes and services. Covid has done immense damage to the viability of all public transport. As a nation we've been instructed not to use it and very many have found permanent ways not to.

The old adage 'use it or lose it' needs to be hammered home as much as it can. And TOCs need to provide reliable services we can use.

 

[Moonshot]

Cut any service and customers are lost, never to return. Put on a new service and it takes time to build regular custom. Simple business theory. Offer a service when customers want to buy and it may do well Offer an identical service at the wrong time and few buy.

A rail service, a fish and chip shop, a bank the basics are the same. It's vicious business logic. If peppe don't want to buy the product it won't be offered. Except with railways we seem to continue operating some services long after they are economically justified. Other reasons to continue are introduced but there comes a point when the weight of that commercial logic will have to apply.

Every train that fails to run to timetable for whatever reason, be it temporarily withdrawn, cancelled at short notice or late, deters a few more users.

I've written on other threads about specific routes and services. Covid has done immense damage to the viability of all public transport. As a nation we've been instructed not to use it and very many have found permanent ways not to.

The old adage 'use it or lose it' needs to be hammered home as much as it can. And TOCs need to provide reliable services we can use.

The one thing that is currently being hammered home on our weekly video updates from regional director is that there is currently a very large revenue hole. Clearly that hole is not sustainable, particularly when you consider the changing patterns of commuter traffic. There are going to be some difficult decisions to be made in the not too distant future.

 

[sycns]

You may see what is happening in Clitheroe you don't see what is happening in South Yorkshire. I do.

There’s not much happening in South Yorkshire (on the railways anyway) it’s all happening at the bus stop!

 

[Peterthegreat]

The one thing that is currently being hammered home on our weekly video updates from regional director is that there is currently a very large revenue hole. Clearly that hole is not sustainable, particularly when you consider the changing patterns of commuter traffic. There are going to be some difficult decisions to be made in the not too distant future.

Agreed. If trains to Clitheroe are empty they are not required. If the trains are not required then neither are the staff.

 

[Ant158]

Agreed. If trains to Clitheroe are empty they are not required. If the trains are not required then neither are the staff.

I think one of the issues might be decisions being made to fully withdraw service rather than reduce frequency, based on a wet Thursday early afternoon in February where the train is empty as supposed to a Saturday afternoon in sunny June where the train is full. (Even if only in one direction, ie the hoards at descend on the town on a Saturday for a bar crawl). The train could come in full but pick up few back to Blackburn.

The Clitheroe line for example has good loads at certain times of day/ day of the week. (As do many other lines) but can have very few passengers the rest of the time. The competing bus service finishes around 7pm and aside from school times is rarely full. I do wonder if permanent bustitution of the rail service could lead to a return of a direct Manchester’s bus service once again though. Looking at the recent weekend engineering works where a single bus seems to suffice over a 3 carriage train I’m afraid the writing might be on the wall.

 

[tbtc]

There is already a half hourly bus most of the day between Blackburn and Clitheroe Mon to Sat, getting rid of the train services would be a real pain for those travelling beyond Blackburn

The stations north of Blackburn get around half a million passengers a year (combined), so that's around seven hundred departing passengers a day - significantly more than a lot of branch lines get (yes, there's the line to Hellifield, but it's essentially a branch line) - it'd seem an unusual one to cut completely - but I don't know how well balanced the passengers are (e.g. would you be able to serve the majority of those passengers with just a couple of trains a day or if they all have roughly fifty/sixty/seventy passengers but nothing with over a hundred)?

I suppose the other question is whether the staff available would be better focussed on maintaining a half hourly Manchester - Blackburn service or an hourly Manchester - Blackburn - Clitheroe service? (again, not saying that I know the answer, just that there's a limited number of staff/resources, so how do we foes them best?)