Last minute platform change

[miklcct]

The CrossCountry train to Bournemouth departing 20:46 Southampton Central was moved from platform 4 to 3 one and a half minute before the departure time. What was the reason of such last minute platform change?

Such kind of change, if happens in peak hours, can create a dangerous situation as a train load of passengers rush onto the footbridge to the other platform in a minute time.

 

[dk1]

The CrossCountry train to Bournemouth departing 20:46 Southampton Central was moved from platform 4 to 3 one and a half minute before the departure time. What was the reason of such last minute platform change?

Such kind of change, if happens in peak hours, can create a dangerous situation as a train load of passengers rush onto the footbridge to the other platform in a minute time.

Can be a multitude of things. Not ideal but can’t be helped much of the time.

 

[The exile]

Can be a multitude of things. Not ideal but can’t be helped much of the time.

All too often I’m now seeing last minute public announcements of things that have been obvious on the staff info screens for several minutes (train b in front of train a with no way for train a to overtake - but train a still advertised as first train, or route set into platform x but public screens still saying it’s arriving at platform y). Computers rule ok?

 

[dk1]

All too often I’m now seeing last minute public announcements of things that have been obvious on the staff info screens for several minutes (train b in front of train a with no way for train a to overtake - but train a still advertised as first train, or route set into platform x but public screens still saying it’s arriving at platform y). Computers rule ok?

Not sure what you mean by computers rule ok. These are all controlled by human beings in control centres.

 

[swt_passenger]

The CrossCountry train to Bournemouth departing 20:46 Southampton Central was moved from platform 4 to 3 one and a half minute before the departure time. What was the reason of such last minute platform change?

Such kind of change, if happens in peak hours, can create a dangerous situation as a train load of passengers rush onto the footbridge to the other platform in a minute time.

This happens often enough to not be considered unusual, in fact some down XC trains have been booked to call at P3 anyway. IIRC it is usually done when a freight service has just run through P4, and that train is still on the down main just beyond the station or in the Millbrook area.

But you’d probably need a signaller to explain exactly why and when they decided...

 

[30907]

This happens often enough to not be considered unusual, in fact some down XC trains have been booked to call at P3 anyway. IIRC it is usually done when a freight service has just run through P4, and that train is still on the down main just beyond the station or in the Millbrook area.

RTT has the 1549 Lawley Street to M.C.T (running slightly late) using P4 in exactly that way. The OP may have seen it.

 

[swt_passenger]

RTT has the 1549 Lawley Street to M.C.T (running slightly late) using P4 in exactly that way. The OP may have seen it.

I‘m not an expert in signalling, but will there be some sort of P4 re-occupation time limit involved here? So the signallers will have used P3 rather than have the XC being held in the tunnel until the P4 route can be set?

 

[Tomnick]

Not sure what you mean by computers rule ok. These are all controlled by human beings in control centres.

The passenger information can be controlled by human beings, but all too often at certain locations it's left to the computer to update the information itself when the description steps into the platform berth.

I‘m not an expert in signalling, but will there be some sort of P4 re-occupation time limit involved here? So the signallers will have used P3 rather than have the XC being held in the tunnel until the P4 route can be set?

There's no time limit enforced by the signalling system - the reoccupation time is a theoretical value used for planning purposes. The signalling system just needs the first train to have cleared the overlap of the signal beyond the platform (which is the basis of part of the calculation to establish the reoccupation time). It could be that the Class 4 was expected to be a bit slow getting clear of the platform, in which case giving the Class 1 a quicker run into another platform makes sense (but not if no-one's told until the last minute, so any time saved is more than balanced by time lost waiting for folk to make their way over to the other platform!).

 

[185]

usually done when a freight service has just run through P4..

Just looked - a Freightliner did go through P4, was a minute or so late going through. Platform change will have been to keep 1O26 Manchester - Bournemouth on time, and likely a last minute change as the back end of the freight will have taken a while to trundle through whilst braking for the junction.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's no time limit enforced by the signalling system - the reoccupation time is a theoretical value used for planning purposes. The signalling system just needs the first train to have cleared the overlap of the signal beyond the platform (which is the basis of part of the calculation to establish the reoccupation time). It could be that the Class 4 was expected to be a bit slow getting clear of the platform, in which case giving the Class 1 a quicker run into another platform makes sense (but not if no-one's told until the last minute, so any time saved is more than balanced by time lost waiting for folk to make their way over to the other platform!).

Thanks for that explanation. I just looked at the Wessex timetable planning rules, (TPR), a few minutes ago, and I saw there are numerous rules listed giving the time between successive moves in the Northam Junction to Redbridge area, and for the move in question it seems to be covered by a “4 min apart” requirement.

A full length container train whether going to the Western Docks or MCT will not be moving that quickly once past the station either.

 

[miklcct]

Just looked - a Freightliner did go through P4, was a minute or so late going through. Platform change will have been to keep 1O26 Manchester - Bournemouth on time, and likely a last minute change as the back end of the freight will have taken a while to trundle through whilst braking for the junction.

Do you mean that, by the time the CrossCountry train reached the point to P3/4, the freight train hadn't cleared the overlap of the platform 4 signal yet? It was already 4 minutes after I saw the freight train passing through the station.

 

[43055]

Do you mean that, by the time the CrossCountry train reached the point to P3/4, the freight train hadn't cleared the overlap of the platform 4 signal yet? It was already 4 minutes after I saw the freight train passing through the station.

I would expect the freight to clear the overlap in the 3 mins but as it was probably slowing for going into the docks would probably not clear the pointwork for the route to be set from the platform starter signal meaning the Cross Country could arrive into 4 but might not be able to depart at 2046.

Real Time Trains shows the freight passing at 2042 and the Cross Country arriving at 2045.

 

[sjm77]

I have seen some craziness at Manchester Oxford Road, normally when two services heading towards Piccadilly are running close together. Both are planned to use Platform 4 and the situation arises where the first service is at the platform when the second service draws into Deansgate and stops at the protecting Red signal. Either a signaller or a computer switches the following service to P3 even if the first train is already in the process of departing P4. The end result is that the second train can start moving again maybe 20 seconds earlier but then sits for an extra 2 minutes whilst airport bound customers carry their luggage over the footbridge!!!!!! Just Stupid.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have seen some craziness at Manchester Oxford Road...

All in an attempt, presumably, to try to minimize passenger train delay minutes?

 

[etr221]

All in an attempt, presumably, to try to minimize passenger train delay minutes?

By increasing passenger delay (if they don't make it) and aggravation (whether they do or not)...

 

[Horizon22]

Larger through stations are probably the ones that have the biggest issue with this. Terminals and other locations where trains started will either a) not be boarded, or b) be obvious in good time where the alteration is.

Normally (but not always) these larger through stations have someone with localised CIS control and tannoy capability and someone staffed to give out local information like this. However they are not always there 24/7 or may be occupied with other tasks. This will be when you get the automated "this is a platform alteration...".

 

[Mcr Warrior]

By increasing passenger delay (if they don't make it) and aggravation (whether they do or not)...

Agree that it can often be a sub-optimal experience from a passenger's point of view, but this is the railway that we're talking about, where operational convenience and minimizing delay minutes invariably seem to be key!

 

[Geeves]

I have seen some craziness at Manchester Oxford Road, normally when two services heading towards Piccadilly are running close together. Both are planned to use Platform 4 and the situation arises where the first service is at the platform when the second service draws into Deansgate and stops at the protecting Red signal. Either a signaller or a computer switches the following service to P3 even if the first train is already in the process of departing P4. The end result is that the second train can start moving again maybe 20 seconds earlier but then sits for an extra 2 minutes whilst airport bound customers carry their luggage over the footbridge!!!!!! Just Stupid.

No doubt there's two other trains behind those stitching up Castlefield Junction, Oxford Rd isn't really a very user friendly station for signalers or passengers

 

[sjm77]

No doubt there's two other trains behind those stitching up Castlefield Junction, Oxford Rd isn't really a very user friendly station for signalers or passengers

Yes and normally it is EMT stopped outside my apartment at XX:35 in the hours they still provide a service from Liverpool! Until we have P15/16 at Piccadilly extremely short notice platform changes at Oxford Road like I describe achieve nothing but annoying customers.

 

[jfollows]

I have seen some craziness at Manchester Oxford Road, normally when two services heading towards Piccadilly are running close together. Both are planned to use Platform 4 and the situation arises where the first service is at the platform when the second service draws into Deansgate and stops at the protecting Red signal. Either a signaller or a computer switches the following service to P3 even if the first train is already in the process of departing P4. The end result is that the second train can start moving again maybe 20 seconds earlier but then sits for an extra 2 minutes whilst airport bound customers carry their luggage over the footbridge!!!!!! Just Stupid.

I've had it worse than that - no train on platform 4, late evening, I sat underneath the display indicating next train to Wilmslow for about 15 minutes, then at the absolute last minute as the train was approaching it was switched to platform 3. By the time I was hurrying down the stairs to platform 3 there was a tide of people heading up the stairs having just got off the train. I can't run, walking is OK, and I made it, just, but it was stupid and annoying. As I say, when it happened to me there was no other train in the station and there hadn't been a recent departure for Piccadilly either.

 

[181]

All too often I’m now seeing last minute public announcements of things that have been obvious on the staff info screens for several minutes (train b in front of train a with no way for train a to overtake - but train a still advertised as first train, or route set into platform x but public screens still saying it’s arriving at platform y).

The passenger information can be controlled by human beings, but all too often at certain locations it's left to the computer to update the information itself when the description steps into the platform berth.

Normally (but not always) these larger through stations have someone with localised CIS control and tannoy capability and someone staffed to give out local information like this. However they are not always there 24/7 or may be occupied with other tasks. This will be when you get the automated "this is a platform alteration...".

Maybe I'm misundertanding something, but could the announcement be made automatically when the route is set? -- that would give passengers a bit more warning without the need for a staff member to intervene. When I was at Reading thisafternoon, the announcement of platform 9 for the 15.27 for Bristol was still playing when I could see the train diverging from the platfom 9 line and heading for platform 8. In this case it didn't matter much as 8 and 9 are opposite sides of the same island, but it still seems daft to announce a train on one platform when the signalling system 'knows' that it won't be using that platform, and even more so when it's physically impossible for it to reach that platform and it can be seen about to enter a different one.

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe I'm misundertanding something, but could the announcement be made automatically when the route is set? -- that would give passengers a bit more warning without the need for a staff member to intervene. When I was at Reading thisafternoon, the announcement of platform 9 for the 15.27 for Bristol was still playing when I could see the train diverging from the platfom 9 line and heading for platform 8. In this case it didn't matter much as 8 and 9 are opposite sides of the same island, but it still seems daft to announce a train on one platform when the signalling system 'knows' that it won't be using that platform, and even more so when it's physically impossible for it to reach that platform and it can be seen about to enter a different one.

The trigger will come from the berth being triggered to confirm a platform. The CIS software is not smart enough to understand anything more, nor is it linked it to the signalling system (besides the basics of berths and rudimentary automatic delay prediction).

 

[IanXC]

Maybe I'm misundertanding something, but could the announcement be made automatically when the route is set? -- that would give passengers a bit more warning without the need for a staff member to intervene. When I was at Reading thisafternoon, the announcement of platform 9 for the 15.27 for Bristol was still playing when I could see the train diverging from the platfom 9 line and heading for platform 8. In this case it didn't matter much as 8 and 9 are opposite sides of the same island, but it still seems daft to announce a train on one platform when the signalling system 'knows' that it won't be using that platform, and even more so when it's physically impossible for it to reach that platform and it can be seen about to enter a different one.

The trigger will come from the berth being triggered to confirm a platform. The CIS software is not smart enough to understand anything more, nor is it linked it to the signalling system (besides the basics of berths and rudimentary automatic delay prediction).

ATOS systems don't do this, but KeTech ones do (only where the data from the signalling system shows this detail clearly!)

 

[ComUtoR]

Routes can be set without the protecting signal being cleared. Wouldn't both be required before any announcement is made ?

 

[Horizon22]

Routes can be set without the protecting signal being cleared. Wouldn't both be required before any announcement is made ?

I suppose it depends. There’s a very low chance of the route / signal being put back but any operator looking at CCF / TMIS or other live railway map will take that as correct. Also some conscientious signallers might give the local control room / supervisor / staff a call “Just a heads up 1A00 will be going up Platform 3 now”

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2022 ==

ATOS systems don't do this, but KeTech ones do (only where the data from the signalling system shows this detail clearly!)

Well that is part of the problem I suppose too!

 

[louis97]

ATOS systems don't do this

It can do it though, I know of at least one TOC that used it but had to disabled it because of its unreliability - not really a huge surprise to me.

I suspect its a step too far in the knowledge required to set it up correctly.

 

[greaterwest]

ATOS systems don't do this, but KeTech ones do (only where the data from the signalling system shows this detail clearly!)

I also assure you the Amey system currently only in use with London Overground but previously SWR, Southern and FGW (as they were) to name a few can also do this reliably.