Calder Valley idea

[Philip]

I'm wondering about the idea of Northern introducing an extra Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Halifax service, but running express and extending to York. This could see them offering a genuinely good alternative service to the TPE offering on the Manchester-Leeds-York corridor, quite possibly at a much cheaper cost if the same Northern advance fares were to be used that are currently used on other routes.

The Blackpool to York could terminate at Leeds and thus allow the rolling stock and track capacity at York to enable a service from Manchester Victoria to extend there. The 'express' service would call at Halifax, Leeds and York only, which should bring it fairly close to TPE journey times via Standedge. I realise that Rochdale, Bradford and Hebden Bridge are fairly big places to not call at, but these are already well served by the other services and the idea is for Northern to offer a Manchester-Leeds-York service which compares favourably with TPE both in journey time and cost.

There were initial plans in the Arriva Northern franchise for three Manchester to Leeds via Halifax services, but it has remained at two up to now, so this service would see the planned third service begin. We also know that Northern have more DMUs on the way which could enable extra services like this proposed one to be introduced.

 

[JonathanH]

This could see them they offering a genuinely good alternative service to the TPE offering on the Manchester-Leeds-York corridor, quite possibly at a much cheaper cost if the same Northern advance fares were to be used that are currently used on other routes.

Why is this necessary? What are the lower costs that Northern have relative to TPE? It is well versed that this sort of price competition is soon going to be stopped in any case.

The principal requirements for the Calder Valley route are for a reasonably quick service between Manchester and Bradford and acceptable journey times for Blackpool / Preston to Leeds. It also has to be recognised that it is a two track railway with a limit to how fast and stopping trains can fit in the timetable.

The possible need for TPE to work via the Calder Valley during upgrade work on its core route will also prevent faster Northern services.

The 'express' service would call at Halifax, Leeds and York only, which should bring it fairly close to TPE journey times via Standedge. I realise that Rochdale, Bradford and Hebden Bridge are fairly big places to not call at, but these are already well served by the other services and the idea is for Northern to offer a Manchester-Leeds-York service which compares favourably with TPE both in journey time and cost

How exactly is it going to call at Halifax and not Bradford? Northern cannot and should not avoid calls at Rochdale, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge.

Northern's role is not to compete with the TPE service on time, and, in the future, not on price either.

 

[Philip]

Why is this necessary? What are the lower costs that Northern have relative to TPE? It is well versed that this sort of price competition is soon going to be stopped in any case.

The principal requirements for the Calder Valley route are for a reasonably quick service between Manchester and Bradford and acceptable journey times for Blackpool / Preston to Leeds. It also has to be recognised that it is a two track railway with a limit to how fast and stopping trains can fit in the timetable.

The possible need for TPE to work via the Calder Valley during upgrade work on its core route will also prevent faster Northern services.


How exactly is it going to call at Halifax and not Bradford? Northern cannot and should not avoid calls at Rochdale, Todmorden and Hebden Bridge.

Northern's role is not to compete with the TPE service on time, and, in the future, not on price either.

I've omitted Bradford because of the deviation off route and the journey time penalty this causes. There is no guarantee at this point that the fares will be reformed whilst there is still the possibility that operator specific tickets will remain long term. The way things stand currently is that the TPE service is more expensive than Northern (both for anytime and advance tickets), but because of the slow journey via the Calder Valley, the majority of Manchester-Leeds-York passengers use the TPE service.

This idea is to try to create a better balance of Manchester to Leeds and York passengers between both routes (and so reducing overcrowding on the TPE route), by making the Calder Valley route a more practical one to use than it is currently.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've omitted Bradford because of the deviation off route and the journey time penalty this causes. There is no guarantee at this point that the fares will be reformed whilst there is still the possibility that operator specific tickets will remain long term. The way things stand currently is that the TPE service is more expensive than Northern (both for anytime and advance tickets), but because of the slow journey via the Calder Valley, the majority of Manchester-Leeds-York passengers use the TPE service.

This idea is to try to create a better balance of Manchester to Leeds and York passengers between both routes (and so reducing overcrowding on the TPE route), by making the Calder Valley route a more practical one to use than it is currently.

Please explain - with existing infrastructure - how do you get from Halifax to Leeds without going through Bradford.
In principle a fast Calder Valley service is desirable, but mainly to provide better services for Rochdale, Halifax & Bradford,

 

[LittleAH]

This idea is to try to create a better balance of Manchester to Leeds and York passengers between both routes (and so reducing overcrowding on the TPE route), by making the Calder Valley route a more practical one to use than it is currently.

It's not a practical use and has nothing to do with overcrowding. The mix of new trains for TPE and lower passenger numbers due to Covid will solve that issue for the next decade at least. There's also a distinct lack of capacity between Leeds-York, so either you're combining a Leeds-York stopper with a service between Leeds and Man Vic via Rochdale (which has implications on delays and makes the service far slower than TPE) or you're adding more pressure to a constrained rail corridor.

Given TRU and eventually NPR - it also doesn't provide a viable option in the long run either. And with TRU, TPE will be using the Calder Valley as a diversionary route for the next decade too - so there is a distinct lack of capacity.

 

[43096]

I've omitted Bradford because of the deviation off route and the journey time penalty this causes.

You've clearly no idea as to what the physical infrastructure is, which rather throws doubt on your entire idea.

Just so you're aware to get from Halifax to Leeds you have to go into Bradford Interchange and reverse: there's no "Bradford avoider". You could go via Dewsbury to Halifax, I suppose, but a) it's a longer way round and you'd have to reverse at Halifax to head to Manchester and b) that's via the main Trans-Pennine route so there's little/no capacity.

 

[YorksLad12]

I've omitted Bradford because of the deviation off route and the journey time penalty this causes.

As others have pointed out, Bradford isn't off route so much as actually "the route". Unless you're proposing to reinstate the line from (former) Laisterdyke to (former) Bowling Junction, the southern end of which is built on?

 

[JonathanH]

There is no guarantee at this point that the fares will be reformed whilst there is still the possibility that operator specific tickets will remain long term. The way things stand currently is that the TPE service is more expensive than Northern (both for anytime and advance tickets), but because of the slow journey via the Calder Valley, the majority of Manchester-Leeds-York passengers use the TPE service.

I think it has to be recognised that even if price differentiation continues between TPE and Northern, it will be on slower services which link the main centres but whose primary purpose is serving places on the way. It could be argued that Northern already place too much emphasis on end to end timings and fares on some routes where they could serve intermediate stations better.

 

[Glenn1969]

You can get to the Calder Valley route to Leeds and omit Bradford but you have to go via Brighouse so have to also omit Halifax. Which is pretty pointless for a fast service (unless the aim is a fast Rochdale- Hebden Bridge- Sowerby Bridge- Brighouse- Dewsbury- Leeds with no other stops if one could be pathed

 

[Philip]

Apologies, I hadn't looked at the map so assumed the junction at Bradford was a triangular one, with a south to east curve for avoiding Bradford (similar to Dore South curve).

Even so, is demand between Bradford and Manchester such that it really needs more than an hourly or half-hourly frequency, especially when compared for example with Manchester to Birmingham frequency which in normal times itself is only half hourly 4-5 coach trains?
I'd have thought the vast majority of the passenger traffic from Bradford would be to Leeds, Huddersfield and Halifax; and likewise the vast majority of Manchester passengers heading to West Yorkshire going to Leeds.

 

[Manutd1999]

As others have pointed out, with the current track skipping Bradford isn't possible. In any case, I'm not sure it's particularly desirable to miss out such a large population centre.

I think there is a need/case for running faster services along the Calder Valley, but it's more to give Halifax/Bradford etc better links to Leeds and Manchester, not to compete with TPE.

I would remove the Pudsey and Bramley stops from the Blackpool-York service, providing a faster link to Leeds from Halifax/Bradford. Ideally, this would also increase to 2ph as part of a more regular, half-hourly service pattern. A separate Halifax-Bradford-Leeds shuttle would be added to keep the 4ph from Pudsey and Bramley.

Then I would run 2x Manchester to Leeds services, running 'fast' to Bradford. Skipping Todmorden and Hebden Bridge is tempting, but probably not achievable as it would not be easy to replace the stops with another service.

Something like this:

2x Manchester - Rochdale - Todmorden - Hebden - Halifax - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
2x (Blackpool) - Hebden - Sowerby - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - (York)
2x Halifax - Low Moor - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
1-2x Manchester - Rochdale - all stops - Sowerby - Dewsbury - Leeds

 

[Glenn1969]

As others have pointed out, with the current track skipping Bradford isn't possible. In any case, I'm not sure it's particularly desirable to miss out such a large population centre.

I think there is a need/case for running faster services along the Calder Valley, but it's more to give Halifax/Bradford etc better links to Leeds and Manchester, not to compete with TPE.

I would remove the Pudsey and Bramley stops from the Blackpool-York service, providing a faster link to Leeds from Halifax/Bradford. Ideally, this would also increase to 2ph as part of a more regular, half-hourly service pattern. A separate Halifax-Bradford-Leeds shuttle would be added to keep the 4ph from Pudsey and Bramley.

Then I would run 2x Manchester to Leeds services, running 'fast' to Bradford. Skipping Todmorden and Hebden Bridge is tempting, but probably not achievable as it would not be easy to replace the stops with another service.

Something like this:

2x Manchester - Rochdale - Todmorden - Hebden - Halifax - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
2x (Blackpool) - Todmorden - Hebden - Sowerby - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - (York)
2x Halifax - Low Moor - Bradford - Pudsey - Bramley - Leeds
1x Manchester - Rochdale - all stops - Sowerby - Dewsbury - Leeds

Blackpool trains can't serve Todmorden without use of the curve which means reversing to get to the Halifax line

HADRAG also has a long standing ask for 2tph at Brighouse

 

[Manutd1999]

Todmorden was a typo, now edited

HADRAG also has a long standing ask for 2tph at Brighouse

Potentially both of my planned Leeds-Halifax stoppers could extend to Brighouse and Huddersfield

 

[HST43257]

Is there any demand for a sort of Bradford to Dewsbury service?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any demand for a sort of Bradford to Dewsbury service?

I'd imagine the issue is that there is more demand for other services and at present those take precedence on the Mirfield to Leeds part of the route. Realistically the only way of running a Bradford to Dewsbury service is running it onwards to Leeds and the two stopping paths are taken by the Huddersfield and Wigan via Calder Valley services.

 

[HST43257]

I'd imagine the issue is that there is more demand for other services and at present those take precedence on the Mirfield to Leeds part of the route. Realistically the only way of running a Bradford to Dewsbury service is running it onwards to Leeds and the two stopping paths are taken by the Huddersfield and Wigan via Calder Valley services.

I guess I live in a fantasy world in 25 years where Ravensthorpe to Leeds has an NPR tunnel and Dewsbury has minimum 4tph all stopper plus 2tph semifast. Then we may get the full WY Metro and full NPR, which are mutually exclusive as far as I’m aware

My ideal is:

1tph York to Blackpool North via Bradford and Burnley
1tph York to Huddersfield via Bradford
1tph Hull to Huddersfield via Bradford
1tph York to Leeds via Bradford and Mirfield
1tph Leeds to Man Vic via Dewsbury and Rochdale
1tph Preston to Man Vic via Burnley and Rochdale
1tph Leeds to Liverpool via Bradford, Rochdale and Huyton
1tph Leeds to Shrewsbury via Bradford, Rochdale and Frodsham

However, there are multiple infrastructure and timetabling issues to be sorted out for that to happen in the form I would like it. Give it 35 years

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there any demand for a sort of Bradford to Dewsbury service?

There may well be some demand, but better served by Arriva Yorkshire's 268 service which can run in a fairly straight line and serve the intermediate towns of Cleckheaton and Heckmondwike. A train would have to run via Halifax, Brighouse and Mirfield so wouldn't be particularly fast. Any paths used would be better used for other flows.

 

[MarkyT]

There may well be some demand, but better served by Arriva Yorkshire's 268 service which can run in a fairly straight line and serve the intermediate towns of Cleckheaton and Heckmondwike. A train would have to run via Halifax, Brighouse and Mirfield so wouldn't be particularly fast. Any paths used would be better used for other flows.

A potential future light rail corridor perhaps, mostly following the old Spen Valley railway route? Maybe using tram-trains so they could cross the city on street and join up with the Forster Square lines for a run out to Ilkley (could facilitate an additional Otley branch at reduced cost using rail standards). Bradford-Dewsbury on Heavy rail via Halifax is double the distance at approx 33km vs 16km following the Spen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A potential future light rail corridor perhaps, mostly following the old Spen Valley railway route? Maybe using tram-trains so they could cross the city on street and join up with the Forster Square lines for a run out to Ilkley (could facilitate an additional Otley branch at reduced cost using rail standards). Bradford-Dewsbury on Heavy rail via Halifax is double the distance at approx 33km vs 16km following the Spen.

It would be a long shot, but if you were looking at bus corridors that would be suitable for light rail, it would be a contender for sure- one issue would be how you'd route it between Bradford city centre and Low Moor- tram-train on the existing line, or conversion of the Manchester Road guided busway.

 

[M&NEJ]

I think there is a need/case for running faster services along the Calder Valley, but it's more to give Halifax/Bradford etc better links to Leeds and Manchester, not to compete with TPE.

The point has been made elsewhere that Bradford has poor links with other cities. Rather than discuss extra or amended Northern services competing with TP, why not go for a more "intercity" solution here and add "Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Manchester" to the TransPennine portfolio?

 

[JonathanH]

Rather than discuss extra or amended Northern services competing with TP, why not go for a more "intercity" solution here and add "Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Manchester" to the TransPennine portfolio?

No need to run that from Leeds. That would just complicate the pathing. If there genuinely was a need for TPE services from Bradford to Manchester calling only at Halifax or even running non stop, they should start at Bradford. It won't happen on a two track railway. In any case it would make more sense to run any such journey via Huddersfield.

 

[Bevan Price]

No need to run that from Leeds. That would just complicate the pathing. If there genuinely was a need for TPE services from Bradford to Manchester calling only at Halifax or even running non stop, they should start at Bradford. It won't happen on a two track railway. In any case it would make more sense to run any such journey via Huddersfield.

Halifax to Huddersfield via Brighouse is painfully slow due the number of sharp curves / junctions on that section.

 

[JonathanH]

Halifax to Huddersfield via Brighouse is painfully slow due the number of sharp curves / junctions on that section.

Yes, that is a shame - not exactly direct either.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The point has been made elsewhere that Bradford has poor links with other cities. Rather than discuss extra or amended Northern services competing with TP, why not go for a more "intercity" solution here and add "Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Manchester" to the TransPennine portfolio?

Don't forget about Rochdale.

At the very least: Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester!

 

[YorksLad12]

Don't forget about Rochdale.

At the very least: Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester!

Which is what was supposed to happen when the sped up one of the existing services from Leeds to Man Vic via Bradford. You could probably save a few minutes by removing the New Pudsey call as well but then you'd probably lose it in pathing.

 

[HST43257]

Which is what was supposed to happen when the sped up one of the existing services from Leeds to Man Vic via Bradford. You could probably save a few minutes by removing the New Pudsey call as well but then you'd probably lose it in pathing.

How about you just do it from Bradford to Manchester to avoid the complications of Leeds

 

[Glenn1969]

How about you just do it from Bradford to Manchester to avoid the complications of Leeds

Post TRU

1x Leeds- Brighouse- Sowerby- Rochdale- Manchester
1x Bradford- Halifax- Hebden- Rochdale- Manchester
1x Bradford- Halifax- Huddersfield- Manchester

does/could that work ?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Post TRU

1x Leeds- Brighouse- Sowerby- Rochdale- Manchester
1x Bradford- Halifax- Hebden- Rochdale- Manchester
1x Bradford- Halifax- Huddersfield- Manchester

does/could that work ?

And Leeds to Halifax?

 

[Glenn1969]

And Leeds to Halifax?

via the existing service

 

[Peterthegreat]

via the existing service

So the three services you propose would be in addition to the current services?