Route from Euston to Inverness in 1941

[Cheshire Scot]

One thought I've had is - at that time (1940s or before), to what extent would tickets have been bought in advance - even for such long journeys? The impression I have is that a high proportion - perhaps even most - would have been bought and issued at Euston, on day of travel. But I could be wrong.

My guess would be for London to Inverness a sleeping car passenger would have booked ahead (but noting comments above about potentially senior military and civil service only) but travelling in the seats would probably turn up for the train and buy a ticket before boarding.

 

[Taunton]

Well into the 1970s at least almost all tickets were bought at point of departure.

Sleeping cars, like refreshment cars, Pullmans, etc, were given up for most of WW2. Even first class was given up within and around London.

 

[Nutmeg]

Thanks all for your help.

 

[greyman42]

Daytime travel from London to Inverness was not possible until about 1961, when a new fast 8am train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh gave connections through to Inverness. A railway journalist of the era made an initial journey on it.

When did through daytime services start?

 

[Taunton]

When did through daytime services start?

I think it was The Clansman with the WCML electrification to Scotland in 1974. The ECML through service came much later.

 

[Bevan Price]

My guess would be for London to Inverness a sleeping car passenger would have booked ahead (but noting comments above about potentially senior military and civil service only) but travelling in the seats would probably turn up for the train and buy a ticket before boarding.

Yes - only sleeping car passengers would need to book in advance.
Note that neither LMSR nor LNER timetables of that era mention anything about military personnel having priority for sleeping car spaces.

 

[181]

My guess would be for London to Inverness a sleeping car passenger would have booked ahead (but noting comments above about potentially senior military and civil service only) but travelling in the seats would probably turn up for the train and buy a ticket before boarding.

Yes - only sleeping car passengers would need to book in advance.

Would seat reservations have been available in normal times? (I'm guessing they would have been suspended during the war anyway).

 

[Gloster]

I suspect that sleeper reservations would have been effectively block-booked by the military/civil service and any unused would be sold on the day, possibly on the train itself. As far as normal tickets were concerned, long distance travel for those not making service journeys (i.e. those connected to the forces’ requirements) was still much less common than it is now. Long-distance travel was an event to be organised in advance, not to to be left to chance at the last minute: tickets would, where possible, be bought days or even weeks in advance.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The LMS passenger train marshalling book commencing 7th May 1945 - the day before VE day so representative of wartime formations, shows the 7.20 p.m. Euston to Inverness load 15 ex Euston including two first class sleepers, one third sleeper and 9 compartment coaches (incl. one first and one composite) and three vans - also a vanfit attached at Crewe, the vanfit and one van detached Motherwell for Glasgow - interesting to note routing via Motherwell rather than the slightly shorter route via Wishaw and Holytown (the vans could detach at Law Junction), more recently Motherwell being served by overnight Perth and Glasgow trains with inverness running 'direct'. .

 

[TommyJ]

I think it was The Clansman with the WCML electrification to Scotland in 1974. The ECML through service came much later.

From memory the ECML Highland Chieftain started running in 1984.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks all for your help.

Nothing to add to other posters info - but just to say well done to you @Nutmeg for all your effort being put in to get this correct for your drama - no doubt one of hundreds of little things you will have to do. Nice work - when can we expect to see the drama and do you have a working title? If you are able to share it.

Mind you I bet sometimes you wished you'd never asked....

 

[Dr_Paul]

I don't know about the journey in question, but I do know that my dad, when he was in the army in the last war, had a ticket issued at Castlewellan in Northern Island to Margate in Kent, so long-distance ticketing did occur. The ticket collector at Margate was rather puzzled as it was issued under the name of Northern Irish railway company (perhaps the Belfast and County Down Railway).

 

[Matey]

Euston - Glasgow - change at Forres - Inverness.

 

[Gloster]

Euston - Glasgow - change at Forres - Inverness.

It looks as though in July 1945 the 19.20 from Euston ran direct from Aviemore to Inverness via Carr Bridge, but the 19.30 and the trains from Buchanan Street ran via Forres.

 

[Matey]

but the 19.30 and the trains from Buchanan Street ran via Forres.

I used that route in the 60s. In 1960 I bought a Forces Rate return ticket from Forres to Dava and was told that it was the first one issued within living memory. Lovely memories of black fives climbing northbound up to the moor and the pick-up goods rattling south having picked up a few sealed van loads of whisky from distilleries on the way. In 1966 I watched sadly the tail end of the train heading south from Forres clearing rolling stock and property after the line was closed. Apologies - a bit off topic.

 

[infobleep]

Well into the 1970s at least almost all tickets were bought at point of departure.

Sleeping cars, like refreshment cars, Pullmans, etc, were given up for most of WW2. Even first class was given up within and around London.

This is the supplement to my April 1944 Bradshaw, which suggests to me that restaurant cars lasted far longer in the war than I'd except.

The wording is:
All restaurant cars will be withdrawn on the G. W. R., L. M. & S., L. N. E. R. and S. R., on and from 5th April

 

[Taunton]

This is the supplement to my April 1944 Bradshaw, which suggests to me that restaurant cars lasted far longer in the war than I'd except.

The wording is:
All restaurant cars will be withdrawn on the G. W. R., L. M. & S., L. N. E. R. and S. R., on and from 5th April

View attachment 110446View attachment 110447

They were all a very much on-off-on-off service through the war, apart from first class in the London area, which went in 1940, never to return. Someone will have the details. It likely varied dependent on who the civil servant was in charge of the relevant department at the Ministry of War Transport.

Amusing account from mid-war low times on the GWR, a few restaurant cars were still running despite shortages of, locomotives, staff and food. A departure from Paddington was stuck there waiting for a loco to be found. Meanwhile the restaurant car served the first sitting, relaid, served the second, relaid, they were still stuck there, a third was announced and they duly all filed in. No menus, you just got what there was. The wizened elderly GWR chief steward took up position mid-car. "Saute of whalemeat, gentlemen", he announced ...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Euston - Glasgow - change at Forres - Inverness.

Why change at Forres, generally via Forres trains or portions continued through to Inverness - or at least did so in later years.

It looks as though in July 1945 the 19.20 from Euston ran direct from Aviemore to Inverness via Carr Bridge, but the 19.30 and the trains from Buchanan Street ran via Forres.

Running via Forres would enable the towns of Grantown-on-Spey, Forres (change for Elgin) and Nairn to be served whereas the direct route via Carr Bridge was serving villages.

 

[infobleep]

They were all a very much on-off-on-off service through the war, apart from first class in the London area, which went in 1940, never to return. Someone will have the details. It likely varied dependent on who the civil servant was in charge of the relevant department at the Ministry of War Transport.

Amusing account from mid-war low times on the GWR, a few restaurant cars were still running despite shortages of, locomotives, staff and food. A departure from Paddington was stuck there waiting for a loco to be found. Meanwhile the restaurant car served the first sitting, relaid, served the second, relaid, they were still stuck there, a third was announced and they duly all filed in. No menus, you just got what there was. The wizened elderly GWR chief steward took up position mid-car. "Saute of whalemeat, gentlemen", he announced ...

Thanks for the info. Love the account too.

 

[ian1944]

I used that route in the 60s. In 1960 I bought a Forces Rate return ticket from Forres to Dava and was told that it was the first one issued within living memory. Lovely memories of black fives climbing northbound up to the moor and the pick-up goods rattling south having picked up a few sealed van loads of whisky from distilleries on the way. In 1966 I watched sadly the tail end of the train heading south from Forres clearing rolling stock and property after the line was closed. Apologies - a bit off topic.

The current Dava Way is a walking/cycling route between Forres and Grantown which follows the old HR track, crossing the splendid Divie viaduct at Edinkillie. My wife's family has history there. her paternal grandfather was the minister at Edinkillie and his children, in those more enlightened and less hidebound times, had virtually the run of the nearby station at Dunphail.

 

[Dr Hoo]

They [Restaurant Cars] were all a very much on-off-on-off service through the war, apart from first class in the London area, which went in 1940, never to return. Someone will have the details. It likely varied dependent on who the civil servant was in charge of the relevant department at the Ministry of War Transport.

The initial Railway Executive Committee 'Notice', after outbreak of war on 3 September 1939, took out all restaurant cars and nearly all sleepers besides general passenger service reduction, withdrawal of most cheap fares, etc.

This Notice was soon realised to be too restrictive and restaurant cars were again permitted from 16 October 1939.

There were some specific directions to reduce longer distance passenger services to facilitate the movement of coal traffic from 26 February 1940 but these mainly affected the LNER (and did involve withdrawal of restaurant cars on those routes for a while).

The end of First Class on local trains within the London Passenger Transport Area was from 6 October 1941.

The number of trains with restaurant cars was restricted to 72 from May 1942.

Remaining restaurant cars were withdrawn from 5 April 1944 in preparation for D-Day traffic.

(These details from History of British Railways During the War, 1939-45, commonly regarded as the most 'official' and contemporaneous account, published in January 1946, written by a senior manager (Assistant GM of the LNER) - Robert Bell.)

 

[Taunton]

written by a senior manager (Assistant GM of the LNER) - Robert Bell.)

Also the man who hired a very junior Gerry Fiennes.

 

[WesternLancer]

The initial Railway Executive Committee 'Notice', after outbreak of war on 3 September 1939, took out all restaurant cars and nearly all sleepers besides general passenger service reduction, withdrawal of most cheap fares, etc.

This Notice was soon realised to be too restrictive and restaurant cars were again permitted from 16 October 1939.

There were some specific directions to reduce longer distance passenger services to facilitate the movement of coal traffic from 26 February 1940 but these mainly affected the LNER (and did involve withdrawal of restaurant cars on those routes for a while).

The end of First Class on local trains within the London Passenger Transport Area was from 6 October 1941.

The number of trains with restaurant cars was restricted to 72 from May 1942.

Remaining restaurant cars were withdrawn from 5 April 1944 in preparation for D-Day traffic.

(These details from History of British Railways During the War, 1939-45, commonly regarded as the most 'official' and contemporaneous account, published in January 1946, written by a senior manager (Assistant GM of the LNER) - Robert Bell.)

so it seems it took Mr Hitler a few years to do what the privatised rail companies managed to do of their own accord quite speedily (abolish restaurant cars that is)
Tho of course as per Taunton's account above -- the GWR seem to have managed to soldier on with one or two...

 

[infobleep]

The initial Railway Executive Committee 'Notice', after outbreak of war on 3 September 1939, took out all restaurant cars and nearly all sleepers besides general passenger service reduction, withdrawal of most cheap fares, etc.

This Notice was soon realised to be too restrictive and restaurant cars were again permitted from 16 October 1939.

There were some specific directions to reduce longer distance passenger services to facilitate the movement of coal traffic from 26 February 1940 but these mainly affected the LNER (and did involve withdrawal of restaurant cars on those routes for a while).

The end of First Class on local trains within the London Passenger Transport Area was from 6 October 1941.

The number of trains with restaurant cars was restricted to 72 from May 1942.

Remaining restaurant cars were withdrawn from 5 April 1944 in preparation for D-Day traffic.

(These details from History of British Railways During the War, 1939-45, commonly regarded as the most 'official' and contemporaneous account, published in January 1946, written by a senior manager (Assistant GM of the LNER) - Robert Bell.)

So when first class was abolished, would they simply have continues to use the first class carriages running as standard class or was there enough third class carriage to take them off?

I have a particular fascination and obsession with travelling in declassified first class and make a habit of doing so on any train that has it, which in parts of Surrey and Sussex is quite a lot of trains.

 

[etr221]

So when first class was abolished, would they simply have continues to use the first class carriages running as standard class or was there enough third class carriage to take them off?

I have a particular fascination and obsession with travelling in declassified first class and make a habit of doing so on any train that has it, which in parts of Surrey and Sussex is quite a lot of trains.

Yes, certainly for LPTB stock and LMSR and SR suburban emus, first class accommodation was reclassified as third (and in due course became second) - while I imagine that the same was true for GWR, LMSR and LNER hauled stock, I don't know: possibly, at least to some extent, the relevant vehicles were moved away from London and reclassified back to first. The whole object of the exercise was to increase capacity, by all accommodation available to all.

Some of the early SR 4-SUB sets were built with some wider compartments, that were intended as first class (but never used as such): I think at least at first, it was seen (at least on/for the Big 4) as a temporary measure.

 

[Gloster]

I presume that they would have sewed up the folding armrests or removed any fixed ones, which would increase the seating capacity, but any other fixtures would have been left in situ.

 

[Taunton]

A lot of the London area stock with First provision, both on the Underground (mainly the Metropolitan) and the Southern SUBs, were actually composites, so it was just a matter of removing the stickers. The various structural differences, such as increased compartment width, lasted to the end of the days for the stock; the last of the extra-width SUB compartments were there into the 1970s I believe, though overhauled and re-upholstered in the standard manner once in BR days it was realised it was never coming back.

Always struck me as strange that suburban services in Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh etc solemnly clung to First Class provision into modern stock diesel days and the 1970s (in fact some still have it), with all the issues of overcrowding in Standard while mostly empty in First, whereas within London, the one urban area where there might have been some demand for it, it was realised it wasn't worth restoring.

 

[InOban]

I used that route in the 60s. In 1960 I bought a Forces Rate return ticket from Forres to Dava and was told that it was the first one issued within living memory. Lovely memories of black fives climbing northbound up to the moor and the pick-up goods rattling south having picked up a few sealed van loads of whisky from distilleries on the way. In 1966 I watched sadly the tail end of the train heading south from Forres clearing rolling stock and property after the line was closed. Apologies - a bit off topic.

I think that right up to closure of the Dava route, all Sunday trains went that way and the Carrbridge route was closed. AIR?

 

[Bevan Price]

The initial Railway Executive Committee 'Notice', after outbreak of war on 3 September 1939, took out all restaurant cars and nearly all sleepers besides general passenger service reduction, withdrawal of most cheap fares, etc.

This Notice was soon realised to be too restrictive and restaurant cars were again permitted from 16 October 1939.

There were some specific directions to reduce longer distance passenger services to facilitate the movement of coal traffic from 26 February 1940 but these mainly affected the LNER (and did involve withdrawal of restaurant cars on those routes for a while).

The end of First Class on local trains within the London Passenger Transport Area was from 6 October 1941.

The number of trains with restaurant cars was restricted to 72 from May 1942.

Remaining restaurant cars were withdrawn from 5 April 1944 in preparation for D-Day traffic.

(These details from History of British Railways During the War, 1939-45, commonly regarded as the most 'official' and contemporaneous account, published in January 1946, written by a senior manager (Assistant GM of the LNER) - Robert Bell.)

Was that the same Robert ("Bob") Bell who used to go to meetings showing selections of BR Films?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Was that the same Robert ("Bob") Bell who used to go to meetings showing selections of BR Films?

The Robert Bell in question had retired in May 1943 (so obviously had time to write the book) but I have no knowledge of what else he did after that point in his life.