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Joining the Railway as a Trainee or Apprentice Driver: What are you general concerns?

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16.19

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As a Driver Minder I look after trainee and apprentice drivers once they have successfully passed Driver Academy. The role requires me to teach and offer support in a multitude of different driver aspects; foundation of driving standards (learning to operate trains in a safe and methodical way), traction and rules and regulations. One thing I am hearing a lot lately is different levels of concern from trainees regarding joining the Railway in the first instance and also post-contract worries. It got me thinking;


What are your general concerns about joining the Railway?
 
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Horizon22

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One thing I am hearing a lot lately is different levels of concern from trainees regarding joining the Railway in the first instance and also post-contract worries. It got me thinking;


What are your general concerns about joining the Railway?

Anything in particular your trainees seem worried about?
 

DNCharingX

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I'm responding here on the basis that this thread is asking for perspectives from people interested in joining the railway as trainees, and their concerns. If not, disregard my hogwash.

For me personally, it's the psychometrics. Probably a lot worse inside my head than it actually is but the fact you get two lives + some TOCs disallow reapplying for six months (like my local TOC) really drives the point home that if you screw up you will suffer for it. Not very forgiving. Interviews also concerning but that's more of a personal thing.

I also feel like I will be disadvantaged as a candidate for not having my own transport, which I find unnecessary due to the abundance of quality (sometimes) 24/7 public transport. In terms of the actual role, it seems like something that would be fine (hindsight check in 3-5 years) compared to the entry process.

Regardless, can't hurt to try when the time comes.
 
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SCDR_WMR

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I'm responding here on the basis that this thread is asking for perspectives from people interested in joining the railway as trainees, and their concerns. If not, disregard my hogwash.

For me personally, it's the psychometrics. Probably a lot worse inside my head than it actually is but the fact you get two lives + some TOCs disallow reapplying for six months (like my local TOC) really drives the point home that if you screw up you will suffer for it. Not very forgiving. Interviews also concerning but that's more of a personal thing.

I also feel like I will be disadvantaged as a candidate for not having my own transport, which I find unnecessary due to the abundance of quality (sometimes) 24/7 public transport. In terms of the actual role, it seems like something that would be fine (hindsight check in 3-5 years) compared to the entry process.

Regardless, can't hurt to try when the time comes.
The testing isn't easy, and the MMI is meant to be difficult, however there is good reason for the 2 lives rule and in a way you need to accept it as it won't change.
Also, pretty sure all TOCs and the OPC state no reapplying within 6 months, works the same way as the lives situation to prevent people learning the tests and therefore passing on memory rather than skillset.
As far as transport goes, I've only seen certain freight roles which specifies it, though you may be asked at interview stage about it.

My only reservation is around whether the role is for me personally, don't want to move TOCs to then really struggle when it comes to actually being out there. If I stay where I am at least I know I can go back to being a conductor.
 

MeatAndTwoMeg

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I have heard that some trainee drivers on the course working very hard to learn and being great at the theory side, but never are quite able to get the practical driving skill right. Is this common?
 

AverageJoe

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My concern would be not passing the any of the rules and reg tests or practical tests and then not qualifying and then being left jobless after leaving a decent job to be a trainee.

I would presume that TOC’s give constant help throughout the course as each person excels in different areas and progresses at a different rate.
 

L401CJF

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For me it was the risk of not making the grade during the training and ending up unemployed.

I did eventually bite the bullet and go for a conductor role, and passed the course with flying colours. Currently out route learning and can't quite believe I'm here!
 

Stigy

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For me personally, it's the psychometrics. Probably a lot worse inside my head than it actually is but the fact you get two lives + some TOCs disallow reapplying for six months (like my local TOC) really drives the point home that if you screw up you will suffer for it. Not very forgiving. Interviews also concerning but that's more of a personal thing.
You’ll find it’s generally company policy not to allow reapplying for the same job for at least 6 months.

As far as psychometric assessments go, it’s the same across the board and is just the standard required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

For me it was the risk of not making the grade during the training and ending up unemployed.

I did eventually bite the bullet and go for a conductor role, and passed the course with flying colours. Currently out route learning and can't quite believe I'm here!
Did you start driver training and realise during this that it wasn’t for you? Or just applied for a conductor role instead of driver?

This was my biggest worry. More so the classroom training. There were times I questioned my suitability through the classroom and practical aspects, but I think everybody has days like that to be honest.
 

L401CJF

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You’ll find it’s generally company policy not to allow reapplying for the same job for at least 6 months.

As far as psychometric assessments go, it’s the same across the board and is just the standard required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Did you start driver training and realise during this that it wasn’t for you? Or just applied for a conductor role instead of driver?

This was my biggest worry. More so the classroom training. There were times I questioned my suitability through the classroom and practical aspects, but I think everybody has days like that to be honest.
I just went straight for conductor, I have applied for driving roles in the past but been unsuccessful. Always found the idea of driver training quite daunting, I had passed all the psychometrics to enhanced though without any practice or forum browsing so there may be some hope there!

A mate of mine who was a conductor but is now a driver said to me if I'm worried about the training, go for a conductor course first and see how I get on, then decide on completion whether I feel I could tackle a drivers course. As it happens, I do feel I could take it on and definitely something I'd like to do if possible in the future.

I've not passed out as a conductor yet - rules, traction all boxed off just got route learning to go. I've really enjoyed it and found it quite easy - probably because I've found it really interesting and being an enthusiast have a bit of background Knowledge with certain aspects of the role anyway. Plus, if I did decide to progress to a driving position in a few years time, I'd hopefully have my current position to fall back on.

Edit- not saying progressing to a driver would be easy, but the pieces start to fit together I'm sure it would fall into place. And when I say I found the conductor course easy, I mean easier than others on the course have found it. For me everything seemed to make sense , takes a lot of hard work and revising to get through but it's great when the pieces fit together and your suddenly remembering the rule book like second nature when on day 1 it was like reading a foreign language wondering "how the bloody hell will I remember all this!"
 
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Stigy

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I just went straight for conductor, I have applied for driving roles in the past but been unsuccessful. Always found the idea of driver training quite daunting, I had passed all the psychometrics to enhanced though without any practice or forum browsing so there may be some hope there!

A mate of mine who was a conductor but is now a driver said to me if I'm worried about the training, go for a conductor course first and see how I get on, then decide on completion whether I feel I could tackle a drivers course. As it happens, I do feel I could take it on and definitely something I'd like to do if possible in the future.

I've not passed out as a conductor yet - rules, traction all boxed off just got route learning to go. I've really enjoyed it and found it quite easy - probably because I've found it really interesting and being an enthusiast have a bit of background Knowledge with certain aspects of the role anyway. Plus, if I did decide to progress to a driving position in a few years time, I'd hopefully have my current position to fall back on.
Driver training is pretty intense, but from my experience the trainers are there to help and no one will fail if they have the right attitude. Admittedly I think being a guard first would naturally help with the rules training because a lot of aspects of it are covered in driver rules too.

The actual driving of the train is the easy part….it’s the rules and traction that take some getting your head around.

Good luck with the rest of your training!
 

L401CJF

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Driver training is pretty intense, but from my experience the trainers are there to help and no one will fail if they have the right attitude. Admittedly I think being a guard first would naturally help with the rules training because a lot of aspects of it are covered in driver rules too.

The actual driving of the train is the easy part….it’s the rules and traction that take some getting your head around.

Good luck with the rest of your training!
Some aspects of our training has come into contact with some driver courses so I've had chance to have a chat with trainees, the driver trainers have been around for some aspects of our course - a little crash course on GSMR, a bit of traction training, not to mention just reading the flip charts up on the wall in the drivers course room.

Definitely a lot to take in and much more intense than a guards course, but like you say the trainers are there to help you through, and if they're anything like our conductor trainers have been they're supportive all the way!

When reading the rule book for revision etc I always like to read up on the drivers responsibilities for that particular module too for a bit of an eye opener and definitely an extra level and beyond to that of a conductor.

I'd agree the driving part is the easy part- I've never driven a train (obviously!) but as a little treat before Christmas as a wind down they gave us a go on one of the sims, and they were shocked at how quickly I picked it up. Probably due to years of playing around on train simulator.

Not to mention every driver I've spoken to, also often see it on this forum, they all say the driving is a doddle, it's knowing what to do, when to do it, fault finding, and the sheer knowledge that you earn the money for.
 

Dieseldriver

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My concern would be not passing the any of the rules and reg tests or practical tests and then not qualifying and then being left jobless after leaving a decent job to be a trainee.

I would presume that TOC’s give constant help throughout the course as each person excels in different areas and progresses at a different rate.
Once you are on the course, you’ve demonstrated your aptitude and suitability to pass. After that, it’s up to you.
Some candidates will struggle with different aspects of the training, that’s normal. The important thing is to have a good attitude, put the effort in, be honest with yourself as to what your strengths and weaknesses are and above all, ask every question you need to ask to understand what you need to know.
The company isn’t looking to fail you (although obviously if you fail to attain the required standard then they are left with no choice).
 

nathan211

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The psychometrics are there to make sure you are the best candidate for the job along with the interview, if you can pass those in the eyes of the company you are able to pass the course and practical side of things. Granted some aspects are difficult and take some time to get your head around, but if you are willing to put the time and effort in and do some bits at home outside the classroom you wont go wrong. Practical driving is just the same, no one expects you to be amazing to start with but time in the seat makes things a little easier. When it comes to pass-outs etc its all about nerves, you've proved yourself to be ready and good enough but some people just have a melt down. Nature of the job i guess
 

Efini92

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My concern would be not passing the any of the rules and reg tests or practical tests and then not qualifying and then being left jobless after leaving a decent job to be a trainee.

I would presume that TOC’s give constant help throughout the course as each person excels in different areas and progresses at a different rate.
It’s vary rare that someone doesn’t make the cut. I’ve known a few go back to training school and start their practical handling again.
You’ll probably find the biggest issue being the combined power bear controller being the other way round to a tram.
 

wobman

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It’s vary rare that someone doesn’t make the cut. I’ve known a few go back to training school and start their practical handling again.
You’ll probably find the biggest issue being the combined power bear controller being the other way round to a tram.
People do fail to pass out or some have not even finished their hours, we had 2 on 1 course fail a few years back. Only 12 months ago 1 failed as he wasn't taking in the knowledge, a few DIs tried but he wasn't up to the job.
It doesn't happen all the time but it certainly does happen, tocs invest lots into a trainee so want them to pass out but not everyone is suited to the role unfortunately.
 

SCDR_WMR

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People do fail to pass out or some have not even finished their hours, we had 2 on 1 course fail a few years back. Only 12 months ago 1 failed as he wasn't taking in the knowledge, a few DIs tried but he wasn't up to the job.
It doesn't happen all the time but it certainly does happen, tocs invest lots into a trainee so want them to pass out but not everyone is suited to the role unfortunately.
Absolutely, time will be given and some parts of training may be repeated but there will always come a point where that isn't an option.

Also, some people fly through testing and pass out and then seem to be incompatible to the role unfortunately
 

wobman

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Absolutely, time will be given and some parts of training may be repeated but there will always come a point where that isn't an option.

Also, some people fly through testing and pass out and then seem to be incompatible to the role unfortunately
I've seen that happen, he was a nice lad aswell but he wasn't up to the job. Luckily for him he returned to his old career.

Its just the case that Not everyone is suited to the job.
 

Fozzzy

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I think my biggest concern would be getting through all the recruitment and then finding the job may be wasn't what you thought or you didn't enjoy it like you thought you would. I wonder if anyone has got into training and thought "this isn't for me"
 

AverageJoe

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It’s vary rare that someone doesn’t make the cut. I’ve known a few go back to training school and start their practical handling again.
You’ll probably find the biggest issue being the combined power bear controller being the other way round to a tram.
Yeh I imagine I’ll have to unlearn some habits if I do get on the training.

Hopefully the fact that I was able to take to the training with tram driving bodes well for me making a switch to trains, if I get the chance.
 

Flange Squeal

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I think my biggest concern would be getting through all the recruitment and then finding the job may be wasn't what you thought or you didn't enjoy it like you thought you would. I wonder if anyone has got into training and thought "this isn't for me"
It certainly does happen from time to time. On my course of 12, one pulled out half way through school as they felt it too much to take on, one got through all the training but after a couple of attempts at passing their week-long final exam just wasn't able to meet the required standard, and a third passed out but after around a year left the railway completely as they struggled juggling the extreme shift times with the concentration and family life. I wouldn't say those are necessarily typical stats that only three quarters of each course last, but I know of a number of other courses in the not too distant past where at least one person hasn't made the grade at some point during the process.

For me my "fear" was of not passing and ending up out of employment.
 
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AverageJoe

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It certainly does happen from time to time. On my course of 12, one pulled out half way through school as they felt it too much to take on, one got through all the training but after a couple of attempts at passing their week-long final exam just wasn't able to meet the required standard, and a third passed out but after around a year left the railway completely as they struggled juggling the extreme shift times with the concentration and family life. I wouldn't say those are necessarily typical stats that only three quarters of each course last, but I know of a number of other courses in the not too distant past where at least one person hasn't made the grade at some point during the process.

For me my "fear" was of not passing and ending up out of employment.
Is the theory side of things done at a reasonable pace in order to let you take it in?

When I was training to be a tram driver it was packed into 8 weeks 4 of those being pure driving and the theory side (although nothing in comparison to heavy rail) felt a bit rushed and overwhelming at time because it was just a flood of new info non stop.
 

Flange Squeal

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Is the theory side of things done at a reasonable pace in order to let you take it in?

When I was training to be a tram driver it was packed into 8 weeks 4 of those being pure driving and the theory side (although nothing in comparison to heavy rail) felt a bit rushed and overwhelming at time because it was just a flood of new info non stop.
I can only speak for the TOC I trained with, but it was around 7 weeks in the classroom for PTS (Personal Track Safety) and Rules (with an exam at the end of each week covering that week's topics), then several weeks at my depot with an instructor building up some hours, then back to the school/yard for traction (around a week per Class of train with exams at the end of each, I had four to learn), then back to depot to finish off the required number of hours driving (just over 200hrs in total).

At the end of the training phase, which typically varied from 8-12 months, it was a week-long final exam which covered a day doing out of course workings in the simulator, a day in the yard coupling/uncoupling/fault finding and prepping each class of train (and again written exams on each), a couple of days driving each class of train over several journeys with the examiner, one trip piloting them over a section of route you'd have covered many times based on your depot and instructor's route knowledge, and a final written rules exam that encompassed the six weeks of rules. After that, you were given your key and sent out road learning, the length of time this took varied on how many routes your depot signed in the roster link you were going into. Some depots would assess you on a route by route basis, while others would get you to learn them all in one go and then do a multiple day assessment on them all at the end. After that, you were finally let loose!

Most of us found the pace just about right, although that was by also being sure to revise at home and going over things with our driving instructors during our hours accumulation as not to lose that knowledge between the rules exams at the school and our 'finals' many months later. With the cost of training, it's not in the company's interests to make process unduly difficult and to have people failing. I think some of those I mentioned failed in part due to thinking once they were out of the classroom then they can just switch off and forget about it, or had perhaps already made preconceptions about the role and weren't prepared to put the level of effort in. And as was said to us many times at school, "The only silly question is the one you put off asking". If you go in with the mindset that you are prepared to learn, work with your classmates on breaks (and I guess these days a Whatsapp group to communicate outside of work to help eachother when going over things), and prepared to keep your knowledge up through revision at home and with your instructor, then you'll find the process a lot easier.
 

michael74

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I think my biggest concern would be getting through all the recruitment and then finding the job may be wasn't what you thought or you didn't enjoy it like you thought you would. I wonder if anyone has got into training and thought "this isn't for me"
That's not exclusive to this industry. I have been deeply involved with Student Nurse training for the last 6 years and have seen seen a fair few jack it in quite early (and even as late as year 3) when the reality of the job hits them. Especially recently when people were motivated by the COVID pandemic, people honesty think its like Holby City (spoiler, it isn't)...... That being said, I am leaving Nursing after 15 years on the register and starting as a Conductor in May, I am nervous but looking forward to it, it just depends on how risk adverse you are (or not). I am nearly 50 and this will be my third big career change in my life and I am cool with that....
 
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chaser

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That's not exclusive to this industry. I have been deeply involved with Student Nurse training for the last 6 years and have seen seen a fair few jack it in quite early (and even as late as year 3) when the reality of the job hits them. Especially recently when people were motivated by the COVID pandemic, people honesty think its like Holby City (spoiler, it isn't)...... That being said, I am leaving Nursing after 15 years on the register and starting as a Conductor in May, I am nervous but looking forward to it, it just depends on how risk adverse you are (or not). I am nearly 50 and this will be my second big career change in my life and I am cool with that....
A great outlook on life. Never stand still if you don't like the view. Good luck.
 

AverageJoe

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I can only speak for the TOC I trained with, but it was around 7 weeks in the classroom for PTS (Personal Track Safety) and Rules (with an exam at the end of each week covering that week's topics), then several weeks at my depot with an instructor building up some hours, then back to the school/yard for traction (around a week per Class of train with exams at the end of each, I had four to learn), then back to depot to finish off the required number of hours driving (just over 200hrs in total).

At the end of the training phase, which typically varied from 8-12 months, it was a week-long final exam which covered a day doing out of course workings in the simulator, a day in the yard coupling/uncoupling/fault finding and prepping each class of train (and again written exams on each), a couple of days driving each class of train over several journeys with the examiner, one trip piloting them over a section of route you'd have covered many times based on your depot and instructor's route knowledge, and a final written rules exam that encompassed the six weeks of rules. After that, you were given your key and sent out road learning, the length of time this took varied on how many routes your depot signed in the roster link you were going into. Some depots would assess you on a route by route basis, while others would get you to learn them all in one go and then do a multiple day assessment on them all at the end. After that, you were finally let loose!

Most of us found the pace just about right, although that was by also being sure to revise at home and going over things with our driving instructors during our hours accumulation as not to lose that knowledge between the rules exams at the school and our 'finals' many months later. With the cost of training, it's not in the company's interests to make process unduly difficult and to have people failing. I think some of those I mentioned failed in part due to thinking once they were out of the classroom then they can just switch off and forget about it, or had perhaps already made preconceptions about the role and weren't prepared to put the level of effort in. And as was said to us many times at school, "The only silly question is the one you put off asking". If you go in with the mindset that you are prepared to learn, work with your classmates on breaks (and I guess these days a Whatsapp group to communicate outside of work to help eachother when going over things), and prepared to keep your knowledge up through revision at home and with your instructor, then you'll find the process a lot easier.
Thank you for that detailed explaintion.

A lot of what you said sounded familiar to my tram training, although of course mine was nowhere near as in depth.

I’m glad to say I was one of those who put in the extra effort thought and asked plenty of questions, we also had a WhatsApp group and helped each other out of hours so hopefully if I get the opportunity I will be able to adjust to train driver training in a similar manner.

I’m also PTS trained and have some knowledge of mainline signaling so hopefully some of the training will sound familiar to me.

The difficult thing is getting on a course now
 

Stigy

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People do fail to pass out or some have not even finished their hours, we had 2 on 1 course fail a few years back. Only 12 months ago 1 failed as he wasn't taking in the knowledge, a few DIs tried but he wasn't up to the job.
It doesn't happen all the time but it certainly does happen, tocs invest lots into a trainee so want them to pass out but not everyone is suited to the role unfortunately.
I think a lot of it is down to individual TOCs and how they deal with things like assessments. I know of a TOC where several trainees have failed at different stages, whereas at my current TOC, I don’t know of anyone failing. Yes people resit certain tests or aspects of their passout for example, but generally speaking, it’s quite hard not to make the grade. A particular TOC failed a friend of mine at his traction stage, which is fair enough assuming the set policy was followed, but given the disruption to training COVID has caused, it sounded a little cutthroat and ruthless to me. I mean, I appreciate everyone is ultimately responsible for their own development and knowledge retention, but no matter how you dress it up, when you’ve not had much in the way of training in about 18-months, it seems harsh.
 

wobman

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I think a lot of it is down to individual TOCs and how they deal with things like assessments. I know of a TOC where several trainees have failed at different stages, whereas at my current TOC, I don’t know of anyone failing. Yes people resit certain tests or aspects of their passout for example, but generally speaking, it’s quite hard not to make the grade. A particular TOC failed a friend of mine at his traction stage, which is fair enough assuming the set policy was followed, but given the disruption to training COVID has caused, it sounded a little cutthroat and ruthless to me. I mean, I appreciate everyone is ultimately responsible for their own development and knowledge retention, but no matter how you dress it up, when you’ve not had much in the way of training in about 18-months, it seems harsh.
In the last few years I've never seen so many trainees fail, that's even before covid happened. I do wonder about the recruitment process and how some people get through the initial stages of recruitment. I think all of these people that practice the tests multiple times, it doesn't show a true representation of them.

It's not fair on them as they leave jobs and take a big risk to start as a trainee driver, but some just aren't up to the job.
I've chatted to some of them and the job just isn't for everyone, it's not a criticism but we all have different skill sets and strengths/ weaknesses.

The tocs invest a lot of time and money in trainees, but it's not something that they do without some hard thinking and giving people extra help. They usually let them go with other DIs to see if they can help or extend there training maybe give them more time/ hours. But sometimes no matter how much extra resources are put into helping them, the person isn't able or capable of passing out as a train driver unfortunately.
 

Twotwo

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I think a lot of it is down to individual TOCs and how they deal with things like assessments. I know of a TOC where several trainees have failed at different stages, whereas at my current TOC, I don’t know of anyone failing. Yes people resit certain tests or aspects of their passout for example, but generally speaking, it’s quite hard not to make the grade. A particular TOC failed a friend of mine at his traction stage, which is fair enough assuming the set policy was followed, but given the disruption to training COVID has caused, it sounded a little cutthroat and ruthless to me. I mean, I appreciate everyone is ultimately responsible for their own development and knowledge retention, but no matter how you dress it up, when you’ve not had much in the way of training in about 18-months, it seems harsh.

Wow that is brutal. What happened? Was he not allowed a second go after additional training?

In my group, one person had to redo his traction assesment but was given additional training. I've only heard of people getting the boot are those with bad attitude.
 

Stigy

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Wow that is brutal. What happened? Was he not allowed a second go after additional training?

In my group, one person had to redo his traction assesment but was given additional training. I've only heard of people getting the boot are those with bad attitude.
I’m not sure of all the specifics, but he wasn’t given a second chance, nor was he given additional training as far as I’m aware.
 
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