Season Ticket changeover calculation with "big bang" fares changes

[Paul Kelly]

For a season ticket changeover calculation, what price is used for the price of the ticket being changed to; is it

1. the price of the ticket as it would have been on the day the original ticket was sold, or
2. the price of the ticket as it would have been on the first day of validity

?

It strikes me that normally these two would be exactly the same, since a season ticket can't be sold more than a few days in advance of its first day of validity, and when fares increase the new fares are normally put on sale 4 weeks in advance.

But what if I'd bought a ticket on 28 February last year to start the next day, when the "big bang" fares increase took place? The ticket would have been sold at the old, cheaper price. But the price as of its first day of validity would be the new, higher price. If I did a changeover and the price of the changeover ticket was calculated as of the first day of validity (1st March), I would lose out.

So is it correct that to calculate the correct changeover price you need to take into account the day the ticket was sold, as well as the first day of validity? And do TOCs store both in their season ticket databases?

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't the changeover all calculated on the fares when the original ticket was purchased so this issue doesn't arise. Presumably your option 1 must therefore apply.

As I recall from the one time I requested a changeover, you have to provide some evidence of why you need the changeover.

If I did a changeover and the price of the changeover ticket was calculated as of the first day of validity (1st March), I would lose out.

...or gain if the changeover is to a higher priced ticket?

 

[Watershed]

As I recall from the one time I requested a changeover, you have to provide some evidence of why you need the changeover.

Retailers do tend to ask for this but there is nothing in the NRCoT which limits the number of changeovers or which requires any particular reason to be given. A changeover cannot be refused (or calculated less favourably) if you refuse to give a reason, or give an implausible one.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The fare used should be that which applied at the time of purchase, given that's what will be printed on the original ticket.

That said, it doesn't stop TOCs from incorrectly using the current fare as the basis for the cost of the new ticket when doing the calculation, as changeovers aren't a thing they do every day.

 

[island]

And do TOCs store both in their season ticket databases?

The IKB contains historic fares and when querying, it asks for both sale date and start date of the ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Isn't the changeover all calculated on the fares when the original ticket was purchased so this issue doesn't arise.

I was wondering along the lines of whether there were historical records kept of what fares were on sale on which dates, though. Perhaps there are, but the information isn't in the RDG fares data and so a manual record would need to be maintained.

Although maybe, since the calculation is always done manually, the issue simply doesn't arise as human input ensures the correct prices are used. Or the calculation is simply done wrongly anyway, as CyrusWuff suggests above!

 

[Haywain]

I was wondering along the lines of whether there were historical records kept of what fares were on sale on which dates, though. Perhaps there are, but the information isn't in the RDG fares data and so a manual record would need to be maintained.

Although maybe, since the calculation is always done manually, the issue simply doesn't arise as human input ensures the correct prices are used. Or the calculation is simply done wrongly anyway, as CyrusWuff suggests above!

Historic fares data is retained, for the periods required for season ticket changes but whether the data about when they were on sale is retained I could not say as this has only been relevant relatively recently.

 

[Paul Kelly]

whether the data about when they were on sale is retained I could not say as this has only been relevant relatively recently.

Yes exactly; that is what I was wondering about

 

[Haywain]

Yes exactly; that is what I was wondering about

I've looked at this a bit further and there is a 'Fares Finder' in Knowledgebase which allows historic fares to be found. This notes that for season changeovers starting at March 1st 2021 but purchased earlier, the purchase date must be used for fare calculation. The challenge is that some retail systems now process the calculation using historic fares data but will not have access to the purchase date so there is potential for error for the small number of season tickets involved around those dates. Not an easy one to resolve as a paper season may not be the original carrying the date of purchase, and may not carry the price paid at that time either.

 

[73128]

I've looked at this a bit further and there is a 'Fares Finder' in Knowledgebase which allows historic fares to be found. This notes that for season changeovers starting at March 1st 2021 but purchased earlier, the purchase date must be used for fare calculation. The challenge is that some retail systems now process the calculation using historic fares data but will not have access to the purchase date so there is potential for error for the small number of season tickets involved around those dates. Not an easy one to resolve as a paper season may not be the original carrying the date of purchase, and may not carry the price paid at that time either.

Stations normally keep records of the owners of monthly and longer seasons so may well have recorded that information for the original ticket. They will need to find the fares at the time of purchase for the new journey. I made such a changeover some decades ago (1990s) without any problems or being asked why.

 

[alistairlees]

Stations normally keep records of the owners of monthly and longer seasons so may well have recorded that information for the original ticket. They will need to find the fares at the time of purchase for the new journey. I made such a changeover some decades ago (1990s) without any problems or being asked why.

Well, a season ticket database for the TOC / retailer, rather than stations - but yes there is a record of the original purchase.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Stations normally keep records of the owners of monthly and longer seasons so may well have recorded that information for the original ticket. They will need to find the fares at the time of purchase for the new journey. I made such a changeover some decades ago (1990s) without any problems or being asked why.

Only problem with this is that changeovers may be done at another TOCs location

 

[spag23]

Isn't the changeover all calculated on the fares when the original ticket was purchased so this issue doesn't arise. Presumably your option 1 must therefore apply.

As I recall from the one time I requested a changeover, you have to provide some evidence of why you need the changeover.


...or gain if the changeover is to a higher priced ticket?

By what authority can the operator demand evidence of "why you need the changeover"? This seems to be a perpetuation of the old wive's tale that a changeover can only be permitted in the event of a house or workplace move. Some TOCs have indeed written this into their own Conditions. But I believe this is unenforceable, as Para 41 of the National Conditions makes no provision for such a demand, and TOCs are banned from imposing Conditions more onerous than those in the NRCoC.
Put simply, a passenger doesn't have to furnish a reason for a changeover, other than that he wants one. He then has an entitlement to travel on the new journey as often as he wants, for whatever reason he wants, regardless of where he lives or works. And conversely the train operator has no right to oblige the passenger to make that journey if he chooses not to. Whilst travelling without a ticket is illegal, it is conversely not illegal to have a ticket and not use it. Otherwise we'd have the bizarre situation of RPIs turning up at passengers' houses and fining them for not using their new ticket!