Warships in Scotland

[43096]

No, it isn't. Mr. Sayer's book on the 21s/29s cites numerous reasons as to why NBL went to the wall, ranging from a export market they'd become heavily dependent on rapidly contracting, a lack of adequate communication between management and workers on the ground/general management issues to the use of outdated and just plain unsuitable machinery for the precision task of building diesel & electric locos. Those along with other factors coalesced into the perfect storm that ended up bringing down NBL; was a matter of when, not if by the end. It's easy enough to pin it's downfall on one factor and one factor alone, but it's often far more complicated and nuanced than that.

Even with this in mind, the NBL diesel-electric Type 2s weren't total failures, as they were commended by those who drove them as having the best riding qualities of any of the Type 2s, to say nothing of the cab layout (all the main controls falling easily to hand) and the excellent visibility afforded by those 'sad'-looking cab windows. The rebuilt 29s gave us a inkling of what was possible with a Paxman Ventura providing the oomph, but fate sadly conspired against them.

There’s probably some parallels to be drawn with the USA loco building industry where some manufacturers (Baldwin et al) didn’t adapt to the new order and it was those companies with engine and electrical engineering knowledge that fared best (General Electric and General Motors stateside, English Electric and Brush here).

 

[Strathclyder]

There’s probably some parallels to be drawn with the USA loco building industry where some manufacturers (Baldwin et al) didn’t adapt to the new order and it was those companies with engine and electrical engineering knowledge that fared best (General Electric and General Motors stateside, English Electric and Brush here).

Indeed, a lot of parallels to be drawn there. With that in mind, the story of how GE ended up becoming GM/EMD's primary rival in the US diesel-electric market is a interesting one, and it was at the expense of one of the market's early leaders - ALCo, whom GE had a partnership with - although how they ended up losing their position was down in no small part to the whole 241/244 prime mover fiasco as much as it was GM's dominance and reputation for reliability.

 

[47296lastduff]

Interesting question (well, to me ) what was the most northerly depot which "signed" Warships? I assume Shrewsbury did since they turned up at Crewe - would Chester (GW) have signed them perhaps?

Crewe North signed them, as they had at least one allocated there about the late 1960s.

 

[D6968]

Crewe North signed them, as they had at least one allocated there about the late 1960s.

Could have been interesting if Crewe North drivers had an attitude like those at Saltley

 

[Taunton]

Even with all this in mind, the NBL diesel-electric Type 2s weren't total failures, as they were commended by those who drove them as having the best riding qualities of any of the Type 2s thanks to those Commonwealth bogies, to say nothing of the cab layout (all the main controls falling easily to hand) and the excellent visibility afforded by those 'sad'-looking cab windows.

The view I think on the Western Region from the operating side was there was little difference between the NB and Swindon Warships, which were used turn-and-turn about. Running maintenance was different. The real issue was NB had done a lot of the ancillary equipment themselves, rather than through established suppliers, and when they went bankrupt there was neither support nor spares manufacture for them, and the Swindon equivalents just didn't fit as replacements. BR had a contract with NB for long term maintenance supply, but this of course was useless when they went bust.

Regarding ride quality, the original D600s were known as the best riding of all the WR's hydraulics, just rather ponderous for their weight/power, and with unique controls that not everyone knew. The NB-built D800s were to a Swindon design of bogie, which were immediately problematical.

I think North British built more hydraulics for BR than anyone else. Don't forget to include their hydraulic shunters if you count them up.

 

[Strathclyder]

The view I think on the Western Region from the operating side was there was little difference between the NB and Swindon Warships, which were used turn-and-turn about. Running maintenance was different. The real issue was NB had done a lot of the ancillary equipment themselves, rather than through established suppliers, and when they went bankrupt there was neither support nor spares manufacture for them, and the Swindon equivalents just didn't fit as replacements. BR had a contract with NB for long term maintenance supply, but this of course was useless when they went bust.

Regarding ride quality, the original D600s were known as the best riding of all the WR's hydraulics, just rather ponderous for their weight/power, and with unique controls that not everyone knew. The NB-built D800s were to a Swindon design of bogie, which were immediately problematical.

I think North British built more hydraulics for BR than anyone else. Don't forget to include their hydraulic shunters if you count them up.

A fair assessment me thinks. Aside from BR themselves ofc, NBL was the most profilic builder of diesel hydraulics if you lump the shunters in with the mainline locos.

 

[HighlandSpot]

Crewe North signed them, as they had at least one allocated there about the late 1960s.

Interesting! Do we have information as to what workings this Warship ran?

 

[43096]

Crewe North signed them, as they had at least one allocated there about the late 1960s.

The only reference I can find to Warships being allocated anywhere other than WR depots is of D833 and D846 on loan to D02 Birmingham Division in the summer of 1967 for crew training at Bescot, Tyseley and Oxley. Can you give us some more details?

 

[6Gman]

Interesting! Do we have information as to what workings this Warship ran?

I'm a little sceptical of this. I was living in Crewe in the late 1960s and the mere sighting of a Warship would have been notable. Early 60s would seem more plausible, though even then I would have thought a short-term arrangement (possibly for some training purpose). I'd be interested to see any details.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I was taken to Crewe for the first time as a youngster during the summer of 1969 and this was the very first occasion that I’d ever seen a Warship, I was quite taken aback when D851 Temaraire rolled in on a parcels train from the Western Region no doubt via the Welsh Marches line. I still have a very low quality b/w photo of it somewhere too.

 

[Taunton]

I'm a little sceptical of this. I was living in Crewe in the late 1960s and the mere sighting of a Warship would have been notable. Early 60s would seem more plausible, though even then I would have thought a short-term arrangement (possibly for some training purpose). I'd be interested to see any details.

I'm your one for this because in the early-mid 1960s the family were regularly on the through day train from Plymouth (Taunton) to Liverpool, which had changed over to a Warship right through from Plymouth to Crewe. I now believe it was actually handled to Crewe by a Shrewsbury set to and fro.

My account, told on here more than once, of breaking down north of Shrewsbury due to the Warship running out of fuel, and having to be rescued (actually quite efficiently) by a Shrewsbury Black 5, was apparently not for the first time. Shortly thereafter the diagrams were altered to a loco change at Bristol, from a hydraulic to a Brush Type 4 on to Crewe. But for a while they were multiple daily visitors.

 

[Pigeon]

The NB-built D800s were to a Swindon design of bogie, which were immediately problematical.

Well, it carried over the problem which already existed in the German design, but the Germans didn't have trouble with it because they rarely ran fast enough to get into the dodgy region, whereas the Western wanted to do that all the time.

 

[6Gman]

I'm your one for this because in the early-mid 1960s the family were regularly on the through day train from Plymouth (Taunton) to Liverpool, which had changed over to a Warship right through from Plymouth to Crewe. I now believe it was actually handled to Crewe by a Shrewsbury set to and fro.

My account, told on here more than once, of breaking down north of Shrewsbury due to the Warship running out of fuel, and having to be rescued (actually quite efficiently) by a Shrewsbury Black 5, was apparently not for the first time. Shortly thereafter the diagrams were altered to a loco change at Bristol, from a hydraulic to a Brush Type 4 on to Crewe. But for a while they were multiple daily visitors.

I wasn't in Crewe before 1966 (and would have been too young to have noticed much) but yes I think Warships did work through on a regular basis in the early 60s. And, as you say, they went over to Brush Type 4s by the mid-60s. And, yes, I think they would have been worked by Shrewsbury (and/or Hereford?) traincrew.

And, certainly my recollection of the through trains over the North & West route (1966-72) was that they were solidly 47s.

 

[47296lastduff]

My earlier post was done in haste, and I erroneously said late 1960s for a Warship being based at Crewe North. I should have said early 1960s, and it was more a short-term loan (for training) rather than re-allocation. I cannot pin down the date or loco number unfortunately.
They then became common on shed at 5A, for example on 15/12/63 there were D823/50/1. 22/3/64 found D803/55 on shed, and 14/6/64 found D808/34/52.
Crewe North closed in 1965, but by then Warships had stopped coming to Crewe, as others have stated above.

 

[Taunton]

The Warships would certainly need to go to wherever the refuelling point was at Crewe, being on their last gasp after running through from the West Country. Notice, relevant to this thread, a complete mixture of Swindon and North British ones, that was normal.

I've seen it written that construction of the last five Warships numerically was transferred from North British to Swindon when NB shut down, but that is not correct, they were an independent additional order. The mainstream order, after the prototypes, was 30, D803-32, from Swindon, and 33, D833-65, from NB. The whole sequence was named in alphabetical order after naval warships, so Swindon had Albion to Onslaught, and NB had Panther to Zealous. When the additional five, D866-70, were ordered this could have been a bit of a challenge, but some naval historian at Paddington managed to find five more ship names starting with Z and coming after Zealous.

 

[Strathclyder]

The Warships would certainly need to go to wherever the refuelling point was at Crewe, being on their last gasp after running through from the West Country. Notice, relevant to this thread, a complete mixture of Swindon and North British ones, that was normal.

I've seen it written that construction of the last five Warships numerically was transferred from North British to Swindon when NB shut down, but that is not correct, they were an independent additional order. The mainstream order, after the prototypes, was 30, D803-32, from Swindon, and 33, D833-65, from NB. The whole sequence was named in alphabetical order after naval warships, so Swindon had Albion to Onslaught, and NB had Panther to Zealous. When the additional five, D866-70, were ordered this could have been a bit of a challenge, but some naval historian at Paddington managed to find five more ship names starting with Z and coming after Zealous.

Very interesting. The names of the Warships are one of my favourite things about them (same applies to the 50s and some of the named 68s), what with my having a casual interest in RN warships of the early/mid 20th century; a few of the most famous/infamous ones of the last 120+ years were built in my hometown.

 

[6Gman]

My earlier post was done in haste, and I erroneously said late 1960s for a Warship being based at Crewe North. I should have said early 1960s, and it was more a short-term loan (for training) rather than re-allocation. I cannot pin down the date or loco number unfortunately.
They then became common on shed at 5A, for example on 15/12/63 there were D823/50/1. 22/3/64 found D803/55 on shed, and 14/6/64 found D808/34/52.
Crewe North closed in 1965, but by then Warships had stopped coming to Crewe, as others have stated above.

Ah, that makes sense. I presume a relevant Link at Crewe were trained up on them, but the need would have disappeared with the arrival of 47s to work the through trains.

 

[Gloster]

Part 5 of Roger Harris’ The Allocation History of BR Diesels & Electrics records D860 Victorious as going on loan to 5A for crew training in March 1962, still there in May, but seen in Swindon in August. The various loans to Banbury, Bescot, Oxley and Tyseley were around August 1967.

From the same source: the last two of the original NBL order (D864 and D865) should have been Zealous and Zenith, but while building the names were changed to Zambesi and Zealous to allow more Zs to be fitted in (Zenith would have been a fitting name to end on). The class’ names are a bit odd: there a few famous names and some major units of the fleet at the time, as well as a number of lesser ones. However, there are plenty of names of ships that had been disposed of or of which the lustre had faded and there hadn’t been one carrying that name for some time. The two most recent HMS Goliath had been tugs, the two most recent HMS Thruster had been Landing Ships (Tank) and the Navy’s only HMS Trojan had spent most of her career in Reserve. Considering the choice of names available only fifteen years after World War II, there are a lot of odd choices.

 

[Strathclyder]

Part 5 of Roger Harris’ The Allocation History of BR Diesels & Electrics records D860 Victorious as going on loan to 5A for crew training in March 1962, still there in May, but seen in Swindon in August. The various loans to Banbury, Bescot, Oxley and Tyseley were around August 1967.

From the same source: the last two of the original NBL order (D864 and D865) should have been Zealous and Zenith, but while building the names were changed to Zambesi and Zealous to allow more Zs to be fitted in (Zenith would have been a fitting name to end on). The class’ names are a bit odd: there a few famous names and some major units of the fleet at the time, as well as a number of lesser ones. However, there are plenty of names of ships that had been disposed of or of which the lustre had faded and there hadn’t been one carrying that name for some time. The two most recent HMS Goliath had been tugs, the two most recent HMS Thruster had been Landing Ships (Tank) and the Navy’s only HMS Trojan had spent most of her career in Reserve. Considering the choice of names available only fifteen years after World War II, there are a lot of odd choices.

That there were. For instance, Warrior is/was a ideal name, albeit in this case it was somewhat deflated by the fact that Warrior was the name of the RN's operational headquarters in Northwood, London the entire time D863 was in service (the last ship to carry the name - a Colossus-class light aircraft carrier dating from 1945 - had been sold to the Argentine Navy in 1958); the ironclad Warrior of 1860 wouldn't be secured for restoration/preservation until 1979.

But hey, it just makes them all the more interesting to study all these years later. At least I think so.

 

[Bevan Price]

My earlier post was done in haste, and I erroneously said late 1960s for a Warship being based at Crewe North. I should have said early 1960s, and it was more a short-term loan (for training) rather than re-allocation. I cannot pin down the date or loco number unfortunately.
They then became common on shed at 5A, for example on 15/12/63 there were D823/50/1. 22/3/64 found D803/55 on shed, and 14/6/64 found D808/34/52.
Crewe North closed in 1965, but by then Warships had stopped coming to Crewe, as others have stated above.

I presume they started to go to Crewe North after the ex-GWR sub-shed at Gresty Lane was closed? Locos working off the ex-Cambrian line from Oswestry to Whitchurch (and the GWR Wellington to Nantwich line) once went to Gresty Lane for servicing.

 

[Gloster]

The GWR shed at Crewe was a sub-shed of Wellington and closed in June 1963.

 

[47296lastduff]

I think Gresty Lane was for steam only.

 

[6Gman]

I presume they started to go to Crewe North after the ex-GWR sub-shed at Gresty Lane was closed? Locos working off the ex-Cambrian line from Oswestry to Whitchurch (and the GWR Wellington to Nantwich line) once went to Gresty Lane for servicing.

I think the Warships were coming from Shrewsbury (an ex-LNW route) and Hereford (ex LNW & GW Joint) and on passenger work so I doubt Gresty Lane would have been involved - it was basically for the Wellington passenger work (tank engines) and freight from Oxley etc.

 

[Pinza-C55]

There's a video called "Britains Lost Railways Volume 3 From The Fens To The Highlands" and it has some decent footage of Warships in Scotland at Oban and other places.

 

[D6130]

There's a video called "Britains Lost Railways Volume 3 From The Fens To The Highlands" and it has some decent footage of Warships in Scotland at Oban and other places.

Are you certain that they are 'Warships'and not NBL class 21s and 29s?

 

[Taunton]

I think Gresty Lane was for steam only.

It was, and by the time the Warships arrived at Crewe it was derelict; although WR steam locos were still stood on the two straight roads the roof had fallen in. On the south side of the Nantwich line, it just served the Wellington line which branched off at Nantwich, which actually carried quite a lot of GWR/WR freight traffic from Birmingham etc interchanged at Crewe. This line was also closed at the same time.

 

[47296lastduff]

Small correction- Gresty Lane shed was on the North side of the Nantwich line. It was the one shed at Crewe which was easy to visit (I was never refused entry).