Train service with no 1st class accomodation?

[Mcr Warrior]

If you have purchased a first class ticket (day ticket or season ticket) and then the train service on which you travel is advertised as having first class accommodation, but doesn't, are you entitled to a part refund?

 

[mumrar]

If you have purchased a first class ticket (day ticket or season ticket) and then the train service on which you travel is advertised as having first class accommodation, but doesn't, are you entitled to a part refund?

That's a difficult one, although I'd always suggest writing off. It was a common complaint for Derby-Cheltenham before XC's 170 refurb despite the customer having a first class option of course.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes. Although, that wouldn't apply if for instance a 150 was attached to a 170 with FC and the 170 was full and you had to board the 150 without FC.

 

[CheekyBandit]

National Rail Conditions of Carriage G38?

 

[yorkie]

If you have purchased a first class ticket (day ticket or season ticket) and then the train service on which you travel is advertised as having first class accommodation, but doesn't, are you entitled to a part refund?

If it is definitely advertised in the timetable as conveying FC but no FC accommodation is provided, then yes you can be refunded the difference in fare.

 

[John @ home]

If you have purchased a first class ticket (day ticket or season ticket) and then the train service on which you travel is advertised as having first class accommodation, but doesn't, are you entitled to a part refund?

Yes.

That's a difficult one

No, it's not! The subject is covered explicitly in the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[Failed Unit]

If it is definitely advertised in the timetable as conveying FC but no FC accommodation is provided, then yes you can be refunded the difference in fare.

That is certainly what Scotrail do. I have a case to find out if I get a refund if the declassify at the station after you join due to serious overcrowding because of short forming the service. I now only buy on the train as on Scotrail you have no idea if you train will have first class or seats until you see it at the moment.

 

[John @ home]

Yes. Although, that wouldn't apply if for instance a 150 was attached to a 170 with FC and the 170 was full and you had to board the 150 without FC.

It seems to me that in the circumstances described the advertised First Class accommodation is "not available" and therefore Condition 38 applies.

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket

If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting use of the word 'train' opposed to 'service' considering a 1st class ticket doesn't guarantee you get a 1st class seat unless you reserved one.

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting use of the word 'train' opposed to 'service' considering a 1st class ticket doesn't guarantee you get a 1st class seat unless you reserved one.

So how do you reserve a 1st Class seat on most of the 3rd rail routes, or even Scotrails flagship route Edinburgh - Glasgow?

If you can't get a seat in 1st class because it is full, I would also expect a refund as the service I have paid for is not avialable. If the train has a gaurd I would at least get them to investigate, incase the seats are occupied by standard class ticket holders, which is often the case on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route if the train is short formed!

 

[moonrakerz]

If you can't get a seat in 1st class because it is full, I would also expect a refund as the service I have paid for is not avialable.

Don't bank on that ! I personally heard a Ticket Inspector tell a standing First Class ticket holder that he WAS travelling First Class and that if he wanted a refund then he should go and stand in Standard Class !!

 

[wellhouse]

I have successfully appplied for refunds when no First Class accommodation was provided as advertised.

For many years I commuted on NSE/Thameslink/FCC, and none of these operators ever ran the 319 diagrams per timetable (Bedford-Brighton services mostly have FC, but Sutton Loop sevices do not). I kept a monthly diary and received refunds accordingly against my FC Season Ticket.

More recently, having moved north, I have been refunded by TPE when no accommodation hads been available owing to FC being declassified, which happens regularly on peak services between Huddersfield and Leeds

 

[Failed Unit]

How did you get on with the declassification. I recently did Linlithgow - Glasgow. Train was full so sat in first. Along came the gaurd so bought the ticket. At Polmont the train was declassified and never saw gaurd again. To add insult to injury my return train was an SPT unit with no first (or ticket check). Will they say I tough luck you had 5 minutes first between Linlithgow and Polmont?

 

[Flamingo]

If a 1st class passenger is unable to get a seat, they can apply for a refund of the premium they paid for 1st class, not the whole fare. Usually worth getting the ticket endorsed by the guard to prove no seats were available.

 

[wintonian]

3 or 4 months ago coming out of waterloo late evening I was waiting for the guard to declassify first class and he said they will only do it if it was rammed as they have to refund the difference between the standard fare and first class fare paid by those with first class tickets, I don't know what would happen with passengers holding season tickets though.

 

[island]

3 or 4 months ago coming out of waterloo late evening I was waiting for the guard to declassify first class and he said they will only do it if it was rammed as they have to refund the difference between the standard fare and first class fare paid by those with first class tickets, I don't know what would happen with passengers holding season tickets though.

My understanding is that they get a proportionate refund based on the difference between a standard and first season ticket and the number of journeys they assume the ticket-holder makes during the period of the ticket (which I think is 480 for an annual).

 

[reb0118]

Just a thought. On Scotrail there is no 1st class off peak fare so if you had a 1st class ticket and the train you were on did not have 1st class seating (eg a Strathclyde Turbo) but was an off peak service would you get back the difference between the FDR & the SDR or the CDR?

Thought 2) Are you entitled to a refund on the difference in fares if you buy a 1st class ticket from eg Edinburgh to Stirling where the lead operator (Scotrail) does not offer 1st class? (assuming you do not travel on the one train a day provided by EC). Or is it your fault for not checking whether first class is available prior to purchase?

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Just a thought. On Scotrail there is no 1st class off peak fare so if you had a 1st class ticket and the train you were on did not have 1st class seating (eg a Strathclyde Turbo) but was an off peak service would you get back the difference between the FDR & the SDR or the CDR?

Thought 2) Are you entitled to a refund on the difference in fares if you buy a 1st class ticket from eg Edinburgh to Stirling where the lead operator (Scotrail) does not offer 1st class? (assuming you do not travel on the one train a day provided by EC). Or is it your fault for not checking whether first class is available prior to purchase?

You can only get the refund if first class is advertised in the timetable and is then not available. But how does it work for advanced fares? Does the operator have to look back to see when you purchased your ticket and what standard advance tickets were available on that day?

 

[Sapphire Blue]

You can only get the refund if first class is advertised in the timetable and is then not available. But how does it work for advanced fares? Does the operator have to look back to see when you purchased your ticket and what standard advance tickets were available on that day?

In some cases they would be sending bills out then!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket

If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in , you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...misc/NRCOC.pdf

Think it's clear from the previous posts what the position should be if no first class accommodation is available (due to the train not conveying any first class accommodation at all).

But what is the position if the train does convey first class accommodation which is not however "available" because the train is short-formed and/or de-classified etc and/or the first class section is rammed full?

 

[island]

It's the exact same. Normally the guard will give out chits to 1st ticket holders when there is a declassification which will enable the passenger to reclaim the difference, whatever it may be.

 

[9K43]

Bit of hard luck init?

 

[barrykas]

3 or 4 months ago coming out of waterloo late evening I was waiting for the guard to declassify first class and he said they will only do it if it was rammed as they have to refund the difference between the standard fare and first class fare paid by those with first class tickets, I don't know what would happen with passengers holding season tickets though.

I would suggest you just refund the difference between the "appropriate" First Class and Standard Singles. Looking at The Manual suggests otherwise, however!

Apparently the official method is to subtract the price of the 7 Day Standard season from that of the 7 Day First Class one, divide the result by 5 (if First Class was unavailable in both directions) or 10 (if it was unavailable in one direction) and refund that amount. (Subject to a limit of 10 Singles or 5 Returns per ticket in a rolling 7 day period).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: Interestingly, the TOC in question's interpretation of First Class accommodation not being "available" is either (a) that no First Class carriage was provided at any point of the train's service, or (b) that the First Class accommodation had been declassified to standard for all ticket holders to use.

Not sure that I concur with this interpretation (!)

 

[yorkie]

What alternative interpretation do you have? I am guessing that there are no FC seats available? Arguably FC is still "available", so a strict interpretation would favour the TOC. But common sense and good customer service would favour the customer.

 

[All Line Rover]

What alternative interpretation do you have? I am guessing that there are no FC seats available? Arguably FC is still "available", so a strict interpretation would favour the TOC. But common sense and good customer service would favour the customer.

One of the main reasons for buying a First Class ticket is that you are supposed to be "guaranteed" a seat! Imagine buying a Manchester to Euston ticket and no seats are available? You'd be furious! On the Voyager's from Birmingham to Scotland, since there is only 1 First Class carriage, I have encountered numerous situations where First Class is full but Standard Class isn't. What if you then moved to Standard Class just to get a seat? Would you be entitled to a refund of the price difference?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What alternative interpretation do you have? I am guessing that there are no FC seats available? Arguably FC is still "available", so a strict interpretation would favour the TOC. But common sense and good customer service would favour the customer.

"Available" means obtainable or accessible. Which is different from merely being "provided". If all the seats in First Class are already taken and the gangway area in the First Class accommodation is also rammed full, then, in my view, First Class is not available, obtainable or accessible (!)

 

[Flamingo]

One of the main reasons for buying a First Class ticket is that you are supposed to be "guaranteed" a seat! Imagine buying a Manchester to Euston ticket and no seats are available? You'd be furious! On the Voyager's from Birmingham to Scotland, since there is only 1 First Class carriage, I have encountered numerous situations where First Class is full but Standard Class isn't. What if you then moved to Standard Class just to get a seat? Would you be entitled to a refund of the price difference?

Yes, see the guard to get your ticket endorsed.

If, on the other hand, you move to STD to sit with your friends who are on STD tickets and First is available, then I personally would not endorse the ticket.

 

[premier01]

:roll: Interestingly, the TOC in question's interpretation of First Class accommodation not being "available" is either (a) that no First Class carriage was provided at any point of the train's service, or (b) that the First Class accommodation had been declassified to standard for all ticket holders to use.

Not sure that I concur with this interpretation (!)

What if 1st is declassified and u have a seat-it seems sometimes refunds are available but wouldn't expect that unless you had on seat. In the case where 1st is not declassified and there are no seats but there is standing room the suggestion is that is travelling in 1st but from a customer service perspective would think that a refund would be allowed-especially on a long distance journey like London to Preston.