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I'd like to know if anyone on here has any records or memories of Warships (42s or 43s) operating in Scotland. An old spotter I know remembers seeing a Warship or two on freight runs through Glasgow in the 60s, but I've not been able to track down any photographs or records of Warships up here except for 43s on test runs as they were built in Scotland. Any and all information would be appreciated.
Not strictly what you're looking for, but Scotrail.co.uk has these two images of NBL Warships in Scotland. Not on revenue-earning trains, but either on test or on NBL premsies soon after being built.
An unnamed Class 41 (aka D20/2) D600 at Dumfries under test - late 1957/early 1958. Originally uploaded by Deepol01 & originally published in the BR Staff magazine.
An unidentified Class 43 (aka D22/2) at NBL's Hyde Park Works soon after construction c.1960 sandwiched between a Class 84/AL4 and one of the 'Blue Star' Class 21s; note the cutout for the tablet catcher equipment under the cab window. Originally uploaded by 43100.
Not strictly what you're looking for, but Scotrail.co.uk has these two images of NBL Warships in Scotland. Not on revenue-earning trains, but either on test or on NBL premsies soon after being built.
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/16338/ (an unnamed Class D20/1 D600 at Dumfries under test - late 1957/early 1958. Originally uploaded by Deepol01 & originally published in the BR Staff magazine)
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/1479/ (an unidentified Class 43 (aka D22/2) at NBL's Hyde Park Works soon after construction c.1960 sandwiched between a Class 84/AL4 and one of the 'Blue Star' Class 21s; note the cutout for the tablet catcher equipment under the cab window. Originally uploaded by 43100)
Cheers, gents. Figured if any site would have any pics of Warships in Scotland, scotrail.co.uk would be it.
It may be due to the camera angle highlighting the length differences, but the 21 is actually the shortest one there at 51ft 6 inches (compared to the 84's 53ft 6+1⁄2 inches and the 43's 60ft).
I'd like to know if anyone on here has any records or memories of Warships (42s or 43s) operating in Scotland. An old spotter I know remembers seeing a Warship or two on freight runs through Glasgow in the 60s, but I've not been able to track down any photographs or records of Warships up here except for 43s on test runs as they were built in Scotland. Any and all information would be appreciated.
Seems very unlikely they would have been used on revenue service trains simply because of the issue of traction knowledge. Perhaps some of test trains were formed with a few vans to provide a test load which gave the impression of a freight train?
Interesting question (well, to me ) what was the most northerly depot which "signed" Warships? I assume Shrewsbury did since they turned up at Crewe - would Chester (GW) have signed them perhaps?
Seems very unlikely they would have been used on revenue service trains simply because of the issue of traction knowledge. Perhaps some of test trains were formed with a few vans to provide a test load which gave the impression of a freight train?
Interesting question (well, to me ) what was the most northerly depot which "signed" Warships? I assume Shrewsbury did since they turned up at Crewe - would Chester (GW) have signed them perhaps?
I can remember reading that the morning Plymouth-Leeds train was once worked throughout by a Western diesel. There was no replacement loco available at Gloucester, so the relief driver agreed to take the Hydraulic on to Birmingham. There was no replacement there either, so the Gloucester driver continued with an inspector all the way to Leeds. This happened in the 1970s; will have to check back through Railway Observers for more info...
I can remember reading that the morning Plymouth-Leeds train was once worked throughout by a Western diesel. There was no replacement loco available at Gloucester, so the relief driver agreed to take the Hydraulic on to Birmingham. There was no replacement there either, so the Gloucester driver continued with an inspector all the way to Leeds. This happened in the 1970s; will have to check back through Railway Observers for more info...
I came across a picture of the return working a few days ago. The loco was 1013 on the 07.30 from Swansea and, after refuelling at Neville Hill, it went back on the 14.43 Leeds-Plymouth. No date is given, but the caption says it was just over a month before the last locos were withdrawn.
I came across a picture of the return working a few days ago. The loco was 1013 on the 07.30 from Swansea and, after refuelling at Neville Hill, it went back on the 14.43 Leeds-Plymouth. No date is given, but the caption says it was just over a month before the last locos were withdrawn.
I came across a picture of the return working a few days ago. The loco was 1013 on the 07.30 from Swansea and, after refuelling at Neville Hill, it went back on the 14.43 Leeds-Plymouth. No date is given, but the caption says it was just over a month before the last locos were withdrawn.
20 January 1977, see Railway Observer March 1977. Railway Magazine has pictures at Derby in the April 1977 issue and Leeds in the June 1977 issue. The RCTS has a picture at Sheffield on their website here:
Don’t really know Mr C, seems unusual though that the other two locomotives appear to be essentially fully finished paint wise and including name plates fitted to the 43 yet the electric is out in the yard with them exposed to the elements wearing just its undercoat?
Hey now you mention it - dosen’t it just look like Exeter S D, I’d never have noticed that!
Don’t really know Mr C, seems unusual though that the other two locomotives appear to be essentially fully finished paint wise and including name plates fitted to the 43 yet the electric is out in the yard with them exposed to the elements wearing just its undercoat?
A few years ago (well 1998!) we were rubbing down 821 and on one particular spot we found every livery it had carried (including DB livery!) right from yellow undercoat first applied at Swindon in 1960.
I’m wouldn’t know if it was the same for anything built by NB though.
A few years ago (well 1998!) we were rubbing down 821 and on one particular spot we found every livery it had carried (including DB livery!) right from yellow undercoat first applied at Swindon in 1960.
Excellent. Did you take samples for the modelling/historical paint manufacturers? Would have been a great reference for accurately matching original colours.
Don’t really know Mr C, seems unusual though that the other two locomotives appear to be essentially fully finished paint wise and including name plates fitted to the 43 yet the electric is out in the yard with them exposed to the elements wearing just its undercoat?
There is a pic floating about of a in-build 21 outside in a similar condition to the 84 above. See if I can find it; Anthony P. Sayer's book on the 21s/29s has it, but I'd rather not get done for reproducing it here without permission lol
Excellent. Did you take samples for the modelling/historical paint manufacturers? Would have been a great reference for accurately matching original colours.
Dinosaur habits possibly but they had designed and constructed these locos (and the DE type2's) around the same period. If only we had such companies in the UK today.
Dinosaur habits possibly but they had designed and constructed these locos (and the DE type2's) around the same period. If only we had such companies in the UK today.
Given the reputation of NBL's diesel and electric products as being unreliable junk, I don't think we want such companies today. It's not really a surprise they went out of business.
An unidentified Class 43 (aka D22/2) at NBL's Hyde Park Works soon after construction c.1960 sandwiched between a Class 84/AL4 and one of the 'Blue Star' Class 21s; note the cutout for the tablet catcher equipment under the cab window. Originally uploaded by 43100.
I did a bit of my favourite kind of detective work on this - the loco nearest the camera seems to be last-in-class D6157, which was released to traffic in December 1960. The first Class 84 was delivered to Longsight in March 1960, so perhaps the occasion (and the reason the electric is in undercoat) was that it was a one-off opportunity to photograph all three types together. It’s the sort of thing that looks good in a promotional brochure or on the boardroom wall.
The long nameplate attached to the Warship suggests to me that it’s either D839 Relentless (to traffic 12/11/60), D840 Resistance (to traffic 3/2/61) or probably the most likely D843 Sharpshooter (to traffic 2/1/61).
I did a bit of my favourite kind of detective work on this - the loco nearest the camera seems to be last-in-class D6157, which was released to traffic in December 1960. The first Class 84 was delivered to Longsight in March 1960, so perhaps the occasion (and the reason the electric is in undercoat) was that it was a one-off opportunity to photograph all three types together. It’s the sort of thing that looks good in a promotional brochure or on the boardroom wall.
The long nameplate attached to the Warship suggests to me that it’s either D839 Relentless (to traffic 12/11/60), D840 Resistance (to traffic 3/2/61) or probably the most likely D843 Sharpshooter (to traffic 2/1/61).
Interesting, cheers for all that. I did suspect the 21 was D6157, given I could make out a 7 at the end of the number, the recess for the tablet catcher equipment below the cab window and the resulting placement of the 'diamond' worksplate. I had suspected it was D6147 too, but that had been in traffic since May 1960 and so wouldn't line up date-wise.
The ID of the 84 is a tad harder to pin down; I'd wager on it being one of E3043/44/45 given the dates you cite, the presence of one of those 'long-named' 43s and when those three entered traffic (December 1960 for E3043/44 & March 1961 for E3045); I personally suspect it's one of the former pair as E3045 likely wouldn't have been ready to be wheeled out with the virtually complete diesels in late 1960.
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Given the reputation of NBL's diesel and electric products as being unreliable junk, I don't think we want such companies today. It's not really a surprise they went out of business.
No, it isn't. Mr. Sayer's book on the 21s/29s cites numerous reasons as to why NBL went to the wall, ranging from a export market they'd become heavily dependent on rapidly contracting, a lack of adequate communication between management and workers on the ground/general management issues to the use of outdated and just plain unsuitable machinery for the precision task of building diesel & electric locos. Those along with other factors coalesced into the perfect storm that ended up bringing down NBL; was a matter of when, not if by the end. It's easy enough to pin it's downfall on one factor and one factor alone as it appears as much on the surface and this is conveniently far easier for most of us to accept and digest, but it's often far more complicated and nuanced than that once you start digging.
Even with all this in mind, the NBL diesel-electric Type 2s weren't total failures, as they were commended by those who drove them as having the best riding qualities of any of the Type 2s thanks to those Commonwealth bogies, to say nothing of the cab layout (all the main controls falling easily to hand) and the excellent visibility afforded by those 'sad'-looking cab windows. The rebuilt 29s gave us a inkling of what was possible with a Paxman Ventura providing the oomph, but fate sadly conspired against them.
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Figured if any site would have any pics of Warships in Scotland, scotrail.co.uk would be it.
) what was the most northerly depot which "signed" Warships? I assume Shrewsbury did since they turned up at Crewe - would Chester (GW) have signed them perhaps?
