Shrewsbury to Birmingham Advance not valid?

[ExpressTrain]

Morning all,
I have an advance single booked on the 07:31 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham New Street with my 16-25 Railcard, for £4.25. Turned up at Shrewsbury this morning just before the gateline asking to see tickets and was told by a ticket inspector “You can’t use this ticket before 10am because of the minimum fare” and asked to buy a new ticket. Went to ticket office hoping they’d back me up but no, “you have to pay £12 for a new single ticket”. Needing to be in Birmingham I had to pay the ticket to get on the train. What’s the best way of claiming it back and how can I better argue my case if it happens again as this is likely to be a regular journey?
Thanks.

 

[skyhigh]

They are incorrect. The minimum fare does not apply to Advance tickets. I'd contact the station operator and make a complaint asking for a refund, this stuff is basic knowledge.

You could refer to section 4.5 of the Railcard terms and conditions:

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

 

[ExpressTrain]

Thanks, it was my understanding Advances weren’t subject to the minimum fare but no amount of explaining this would change any of their minds. Didn’t have the Terms & Conditions to hand but it’s useful to remember for next time.

 

[robbeech]

Does the railway just drag people in off the streets and say here’s a jacket with our logo, you’re one of us now? This appears to be the amount of training given nowadays. Does anyone here work for the operator in question? What do you personally think about how your colleagues are behaving?

As mentioned above (and as you rightly thought yourself) the railway is incorrect and essentially just wanted more money from you.

Do complain to the operator in question, and do keep us updated on this thread with how you get on with it.

 

[miklcct]

As mentioned above (and as you rightly thought yourself) the railway is incorrect and essentially just wanted more money from you.

Does this fall foul of any consumer laws? If so, is it possible to report to the appropriate authority such that a criminal investigation can be launched on the operator?

 

[Merseysider]

Does this fall foul of any consumer laws? If so, is it possible to report to the appropriate authority such that a criminal investigation can be launched on the operator?

As much as I would love to see penalties levvied on operators who treat passengers unfairly / whose management fail to keep their staff in line, this is probably one which can be resolved through customer services. Local rag may be interested if they fail to cough up immediately.

 

[Class800]

I agree. As much as I would want severe punishment of those who incorrectly charged the OP, this is probably unlikely (the railway doesn't hold its staff to the same standards as it holds its customers with strict liability) - the best possible outcome you could ask for from customer services would be i) a refund of the incorrectly issued ticket, ii) a complimentary ticket for the operator or some RTVs, and iii) an 'understanding' that the staff training issue would be addressed. I got iii) from Southeastern over a customer services incorrect advice issue and the issue hasn't resurfaced for me

If any moderators/admins see this thread, consider moving to D&P if you agree it would be better suited there

 

[trainophile]

As it was a timed train ticket which you presumably bought online, inputting your railcard, surely it should have occurred to the gateline staff that it was a totally valid ticket. Worst case scenario would be if the website it was bought from was incorrect, but even then it’s not the customer’s fault.

If you buy this again, take a screenshot of it showing the full itinerary.

 

[AlterEgo]

A new nadir of competence reached. Laughed at this one.

is it possible to report to the appropriate authority such that a criminal investigation can be launched on the operator?

Laughed at this too tbh.

Honestly this is dreadful from TFW, made worse by the error being corroborated by another incompetent member of staff. If the OP has an advance which looks wrongly priced, or sold in error, the correct action is to:

- withdraw the ticket
- issue a TIR and replacement ticket for travel at zero cost
- send the passenger on his way
- submit the TIR
- be told you're a fool

Where do they find these people?

 

[Bletchleyite]

- withdraw the ticket
- issue a TIR and replacement ticket for travel at zero cost
- send the passenger on his way
- submit the TIR
- be told you're a fool

The trouble here is that what will happen is that TIL would get hold of the TIR and start threatening the passenger, who is wholly in the right, with all sorts.

But this is mind-numbingly incompetent, I don't even think the classic Merseyrail "return to Liverpool" salesman would make that sort of error. An Advance is by definition valid on the booked train (provided any accompanying Railcard is shown). The fact that it was issued (whether it should have been or not) makes it valid.

 

[robbeech]

Where do they find these people?

I’m not sure but they’re valuable assets to the railway. For example on this one single occasion they got £12 of pure profit from a passenger fir absolutely nothing. This won’t be the first time they’ve done this, it might not even be the first time that day. The majority will just assume they bought the wrong ticket and will learn to buy the more expensive one next time despite not needing to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure but they’re valuable assets to the railway. For example on this one single occasion they got £12 of pure profit from a passenger fir absolutely nothing. This won’t be the first time they’ve done this, it might not even be the first time that day. The majority will just assume they bought the wrong ticket and will learn to buy the more expensive one next time despite not needing to.

There really does need to be some sort of mandatory sanction applied to the railway for this sort of thing to ensure it isn't profitable. How about something like the way some stores stop staff pocketing money - "if we don't give you a receipt your product is free", instead we have "if we say your ticket isn't valid when it is, send both your original ticket and the one you wrongly purchased in and you travel for free"?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There can be unequal consequences when things go awry depending on which party is deemed to be at fault. One can imagine the consequences that the OP might have faced had their ticket been inspected mid-journey/end-journey and it transpired that they didn't have a valid railcard with them.

 

[Class800]

There can be unequal consequences when things go awry depending on which party is deemed to be at fault. One can imagine the consequences that the OP might have faced had their ticket been inspected mid-journey/end-journey and it transpired that they didn't have a valid railcard with them.

I agree - it is unfair that staff and passenger errors are not treated equally, either both leniently or both strictly

 

[nanstallon]

We seem to be going back to the days when the customer was always wrong. I suppose a lot of it is because the railway now get paid by the government regardless of how many people use the trains; no incentive to train staff properly and treat customers properly.

 

[ExpressTrain]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The inspector was clueless, I’m guessing he just didn’t understand the concept of an advance ticket. After all, how can you use an advance after 10am when it’s booked for 07:31? Surprising for someone who was revenue protection (there were a few of them asking for tickets before going through the open barriers). When I queried with the person at the booking office she insisted that I had an invalid ticket so I followed up by asking how I managed to book it online to that train. “Oh you’re dealing with computer algorithms and they can get it wrong, you should have come to us to book”.

Anyway I’ll put a complaint in tonight and keep you all updated on how it goes.

 

[robbeech]

There really does need to be some sort of mandatory sanction applied to the railway for this sort of thing to ensure it isn't profitable. How about something like the way some stores stop staff pocketing money - "if we don't give you a receipt your product is free", instead we have "if we say your ticket isn't valid when it is, send both your original ticket and the one you wrongly purchased in and you travel for free"?

One thing we must remember is that when staff earn commission on ticket sales (something I’m entirely for) this gets calculated but I have it on good authority from more than one operator that if a ticket is subsequently refunded (for whatever reason) then the commission is NOT deducted as the system isn’t able to cope with this. Now, this information is a few years old so it’s possible things have changed but it’s unlikely. As such a ticket inspector who does earn commission has a huge incentive to sell new tickets where possible knowing that if a complaint is raised against them (which will be rare) then they still get to keep it. Of course things would be investigated if they did it too much.

We seem to be going back to the days when the customer was always wrong

They get away with it, nobody is there to stop them.

I’m guessing he just didn’t understand the concept of an advance ticket.

A ticket inspector not understanding one the common ticket types. You’d never believe it if you didn’t know the railway.

If you went to a garage to get your car fixed and the mechanic said you needed a replacement automatic gearbox and it was going to be £3000 and it actually turned out that you only needed a torque convertor which would have cost you £1000 you’d immediately assume the mechanic was trying it on and trying to con you out of more money yet on the railway we are expected to believe that it’s incompetence. I don’t always buy that I’m afraid.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The inspector was clueless, I’m guessing he just didn’t understand the concept of an advance ticket. After all, how can you use an advance after 10am when it’s booked for 07:31? Surprising for someone who was revenue protection (there were a few of them asking for tickets before going through the open barriers). When I queried with the person at the booking office she insisted that I had an invalid ticket so I followed up by asking how I managed to book it online to that train. “Oh you’re dealing with computer algorithms and they can get it wrong, you should have come to us to book”.

Anyway I’ll put a complaint in tonight and keep you all updated on how it goes.

My experience with TfW is that you will be waiting some time, I put in a complaint on the 18th December and still haven't heard back

 

[swt_passenger]

“Oh you’re dealing with computer algorithms and they can get it wrong, you should have come to us to book”.

That’s shocking coming from ticket office staff...

 

[trainophile]

Do they get commission for selling tickets at the ticket counter? That's their job! I know TMs and guards (never sure of the difference) can in some instances get a small percentage for selling a ticket on the train, but it's scandalous if the ticket office clerks are also incentivised to sell unnecessary tickets.

 

[Haywain]

Do they get commission for selling tickets at the ticket counter? That's their job! I know TMs and guards (never sure of the difference) can in some instances get a small percentage for selling a ticket on the train, but it's scandalous if the ticket office clerks are also incentivised to sell unnecessary tickets.

There is a chance of some variation but in TOCs I am aware of neither ticket office staff or revenue protection staff receive commission for their ticket sales, only guards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s shocking coming from ticket office staff...

You could argue that that is actually fraudulent.

Gaining pecuniary advantage: extra commission
Through deception: by lying to customers that websites sell invalid tickets when in fact any ticket sold against an itinerary by an accredited site is valid by definition

Yep, the offence seems to be complete.

 

[Kite159]

No doubt when you eventually get an email back from TfW. The customer services will say the staff member was correct with the first response (after-all, railway staff never make mistakes ), and as a "goodwill" gesture will refund you the £4.25 ticket just this one time.

No mention of refunding the extra ticket you were forced to purchase due to the staff being poorly trained (I've had experience with the staff at Shrewsbury when they tried to claim a "Explore Wales" rover wasn't valid there as "Shrewsbury is in England"). If the railway industry was focused on providing a good customer service for when things go wrong they would offer you decent compensation to say sorry, i.e. £50 cash.

Either that or the response will completely ignore any points mentioned, and go on about something about Covid. Or will blame whatever website you used to purchase the ticket as being wrong (assuming it wasn't purchased directly from the TfW website)

 

[gray1404]

It was definitely breach of contract. In addition to the minimum fare not applying to advance tickets, the advance ticket was sold in conjunction with an itinerary so should have been accepted on that basis too.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The inspector was clueless, I’m guessing he just didn’t understand the concept of an advance ticket. After all, how can you use an advance after 10am when it’s booked for 07:31? Surprising for someone who was revenue protection (there were a few of them asking for tickets before going through the open barriers). When I queried with the person at the booking office she insisted that I had an invalid ticket so I followed up by asking how I managed to book it online to that train. “Oh you’re dealing with computer algorithms and they can get it wrong, you should have come to us to book”.

All the more reason not to use the ticket office.

Anyway I’ll put a complaint in tonight and keep you all updated on how it goes.

Please do.

It was definitely breach of contract. In addition to the minimum fare not applying to advance tickets, the advance ticket was sold in conjunction with an itinerary so should have been accepted on that basis too.

Agreed.

 

[LowLevel]

One thing we must remember is that when staff earn commission on ticket sales (something I’m entirely for) this gets calculated but I have it on good authority from more than one operator that if a ticket is subsequently refunded (for whatever reason) then the commission is NOT deducted as the system isn’t able to cope with this. Now, this information is a few years old so it’s possible things have changed but it’s unlikely. As such a ticket inspector who does earn commission has a huge incentive to sell new tickets where possible knowing that if a complaint is raised against them (which will be rare) then they still get to keep it. Of course things would be investigated if they did it too much.

They get away with it, nobody is there to stop them.


A ticket inspector not understanding one the common ticket types. You’d never believe it if you didn’t know the railway.

If you went to a garage to get your car fixed and the mechanic said you needed a replacement automatic gearbox and it was going to be £3000 and it actually turned out that you only needed a torque convertor which would have cost you £1000 you’d immediately assume the mechanic was trying it on and trying to con you out of more money yet on the railway we are expected to believe that it’s incompetence. I don’t always buy that I’m afraid.

I very much doubt the staff members in question get commission. In my case as a "Regional Railways" conductor it's 3.5%, or 42p for a £12 ticket, far from worth the hassle. The most generous commission arrangements I'm aware of is 10% if you take over £200 in a day for former Silverlink conductors on the WCML, below £200 it's zero.

Your information that commission on tickets sold isn't generally recoverable is correct, though persistent issues of that sort will flag up if complaints are made.

It's not worth ascribing to malice that which you can easily put down to incompetence. It might have been as simple as a brain fart.

For example several times over the years in a bleary eyed early morning state I've forgotten the minimum fare easement in July/August for 16-25 railcards and not given the correct discount. On most occasions I've remembered and gone back to correct it, having found the customer generally was totally unaware of the easement themselves, but at least once I've forgotten and therefore overcharged someone which I felt awful about when I realised later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I very much doubt the staff members in question get commission. In my case as a "Regional Railways" conductor it's 3.5%, or 42p for a £12 ticket, far from worth the hassle. The most generous commission arrangements I'm aware of is 10% if you take over £200 in a day for former Silverlink conductors on the WCML, below £200 it's zero.

That might explain why you get a few who do tickets all the time (so they put the effort into trying to reach £200) but most don't (because reaching £200 on a route where every station has at least a TVM and many are gated is going to be loads of effort).

 

[LowLevel]

That might explain why you get a few who do tickets all the time (so they put the effort into trying to reach £200) but most don't (because reaching £200 on a route where every station has at least a TVM and many are gated is going to be loads of effort).

I believe the standard methology used to be knocking out first class upgrades in the morning peak - obviously less practical to achieve nowadays!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Morning all,
I have an advance single booked on the 07:31 from Shrewsbury to Birmingham New Street with my 16-25 Railcard, for £4.25. Turned up at Shrewsbury this morning just before the gateline asking to see tickets and was told by a ticket inspector “You can’t use this ticket before 10am because of the minimum fare” and asked to buy a new ticket. Went to ticket office hoping they’d back me up but no, “you have to pay £12 for a new single ticket”. Needing to be in Birmingham I had to pay the ticket to get on the train. What’s the best way of claiming it back and how can I better argue my case if it happens again as this is likely to be a regular journey?
Thanks.

A tweet to Tfw explaining the situation and making them back you up as correct and their staff wrong in the public domain is always nice too.

 

[robbeech]

A tweet to Tfw explaining the situation and making them back you up as correct and their staff wrong in the public domain is always nice too.

Careful how you word it though else they’ll stick together like the family they are.

“I have an advance for xxxx train between A and B priced at £y but I notice the railcard has a minimum fare. Can I assume that doesn’t apply to this ticket? Thanks”

Would likely yield a positive result where they would say yes it’s valid.

“I have an advance for xxxx train between A and B priced at £y but the staff at the gateline and the staff in the ticket office said it can’t be valid as there is a minimum fare on the railcard. I’ve had to buy a new ticket”

Would likely yield the same result but there’s is a greater than 0 chance that if the person handling the social media doesn’t know they’ll revert to siding with the railway, and won’t want to get their colleagues into trouble so may back them up. It’s unlikely but it’s possible.