CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[sd0733]

Reading through the last few posts perhaps the second half of the year is a more realistic forecast for widespread 197 passenger workings. I still think by this time next year though that there will be no class 175s working out of Manchester anymore (at least on TfW services!). The timetable will probably also completely change in December on both the North and South Wales routes.

Widespread use is a very long way away, the first 3 diagrams will be settled into 1st before any more are introduced and that’s anticipated to go into the second half of the year.
I would say that it’s very unlikely to have every 175 diagram to be gone out of Manchester to both North and South or probably both anywhere close to 12 months time

 

[TravelDream]

Reading through the last few posts perhaps the second half of the year is a more realistic forecast for widespread 197 passenger workings. I still think by this time next year though that there will be no class 175s working out of Manchester anymore (at least on TfW services!). The timetable will probably also completely change in December on both the North and South Wales routes.

It will be well into the second half of the year that the 197s will be in 'widespread' use. There'll also still be 175s in use at Manchester in twelve months' time.

 

[wobman]

Widespread use is a very long way away, the first 3 diagrams will be settled into 1st before any more are introduced and that’s anticipated to go into the second half of the year.
I would say that it’s very unlikely to have every 175 diagram to be gone out of Manchester to both North and South or probably both anywhere close to 12 months time

This seems very optimistic that enough traincrew will be able to work 3 separate diagrams over 4 different routes.
I was told the Chester to Liverpool route is the first route, it involves 1 driver depot Chester and 2 guards depots Chester and Llandudno Junction.
That's a more realistic prospect unless all 3 depots depots get specific links for just the 197s on associated route.

 

[Philip]

Is the timetable still set to change in December to Manchester-Swansea and Manchester-Bangor services, or will this only happen once all loco hauled stock and 197s are up and running?

 

[craigybagel]

I'd be very surprised if there's any big changes in December - most of the big recast will require the full 197 and MKIV fleet ready for service which isn't going to happen by December. Plus it's not been confirmed yet what parts of the original timetable plan have been changed to account for the MKIVs only running to Swansea.

 

[sd0733]

This seems very optimistic that enough traincrew will be able to work 3 separate diagrams over 4 different routes.
I was told the Chester to Liverpool route is the first route, it involves 1 driver depot Chester and 2 guards depots Chester and Llandudno Junction.
That's a more realistic prospect unless all 3 depots depots get specific links for just the 197s on associated route.

Operationally yes and that’s what TFW, the operator wanted.
Seemingly it boils down to being a hard sell PR wise to Welsh taxpayers that their brand new expensive fleet is being used solely on a route in England which is why the others were added. Plenty of time for things to change again beforehand though and I’m sure they will over time.

 

[wobman]

The Manchester to Bangors are going back to the old days, atw used to run that service. It seems Llandudno jn may get that work they are getting an increase in traincrew.
The 197s are going to everywhere hopefully in multiple, that's why the coupling problems need resolving.

I'm intrigued how Chester will train 100 drivers on 197s and 70 on 230's by may TT change, they only way would be a dedicated 197 link and another dedicated 230 link but tfw scapped the 230 link idea long time ago.

I thought only 197001 was near testing completion but that's had to reset as it has MTU software issues, so the clock restarts on milage accumulation I was told ! It's nearly February and to achieve all of what one poster says in such a short amount of time is near on impossible whilst still running services and soon to be increased frequency services due to lowered restrictions.

We're is this information coming from please ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2022 ==

Operationally yes and that’s what TFW, the operator wanted.
Seemingly it boils down to being a hard sell PR wise to Welsh taxpayers that their brand new expensive fleet is being used solely on a route in England which is why the others were added. Plenty of time for things to change again beforehand though and I’m sure they will over time.

There's a big difference between what tfw want and what's actually achievable, the PR machine doesn't have the operational knowledge of traction training and depot route knowledge.

The Chester to Liverpool was chosen as its achievable and if there's problems which there will be, the services start and finish at Chester for the caf depot.
If the testing is on the route tfws other 197s on training runs can recover the unit effected and there's always 153s with an emergency coupler available in the area. This has all Been planned by the tfw team, to add another 2 routes and 2 depots immediately is quite baffling to be honest.

 

[sd0733]

The Chester to Liverpool was chosen as its achievable and if there's problems which there will be, the services start and finish at Chester for the caf depot.
If the testing is on the route tfws other 197s on training runs can recover the unit effected and there's always 153s with an emergency coupler available in the area. This has all Been planned by the tfw team, to add another 2 routes and 2 depots immediately is quite baffling to be honest.

I entirely agree, the Liverpool diagram makes a huge amount of sense to standalone start for the reasons you say, Bleanau in particular doesn’t with being a long way from depots or spare units. Guess pr/politics is attempting to win over operational reality sometimes.
In answer to your question where it comes from, (whilst trying not to give too much away and getting in trouble) it’s first hand from people who know the plans and are heavily involved with the roll out.

 

[wobman]

I entirely agree, the Liverpool diagram makes a huge amount of sense to standalone start for the reasons you say, Bleanau in particular doesnr’t with being a long way from depots or spare units. Guess pr/politics is attempting to win over operational reality sometimes.
In answer to your question where it comes from, (whilst trying not to give too much away and getting in trouble) it’s first hand from people who know the plans and are heavily involved with the roll out.

I think the people who are now making these decisions need to realise about the operational reality of running a railway and the costs involved.
Plus it's not the Welsh franchise as tfw seem to keep referring to, it's the Wales and Bordes franchise. The money actually comes from the DFT and the route to Liverpool is a part of the borders side of the franchise.
Chester and Crewe / Shrewsbury depots are based in the Borders areas of England.

For me the quicker the 197s get into service the better PR win it is, then the units can roll out across the franchise routes with most issues resolved. If a 197 fails on the Conwy branch its a logistical nightmare to get it back to Chester, that won't help the PR perspective for tfw.

Let's hope common sense is used for these new plans and lessons are learned by speaking to people actually with operational experience.

 

[Caaardiff]

Chester - Liverpool is the ideal location, but if they need to speed things up after the initial intake and training, the next best option is Blaenau. There's some positives in using that line;
- It's a branch line, if it fails then it's not blocking anything else.
- Llandudno Jn has stabling space for a spare old unit should a member of train crew work a service that isn't signed off on 197s, easy to swap around.
- Lets face it, people that use that line are more used to a bus anyway, so if anything gets cancelled they won't bat an eyelid!

Do Holyhead train crew work the Blaenau branch? If they do then it's a good starting point for them as well, having it on a confined route rather than working Chester - Manchester or North Wales Coast line.

Chester - Crewe has a mixture of Crewe and Cardiff Depots to throw into the mix as well. Options are limited.

I'm intrigued how Chester will train 100 drivers on 197s and 70 on 230's by may TT change, they only way would be a dedicated 197 link and another dedicated 230 link but tfw scapped the 230 link idea long time ago.

There's very little chance the 197's will be in service anywhere except Chester - Liverpool by May timetable.
Isn't the 230 training already well under way? Are any drivers/guards passed out yet?

 

[Bikeman78]

I entirely agree, the Liverpool diagram makes a huge amount of sense to standalone start for the reasons you say, Bleanau in particular doesn’t with being a long way from depots or spare units. Guess pr/politics is attempting to win over operational reality sometimes.
In answer to your question where it comes from, (whilst trying not to give too much away and getting in trouble) it’s first hand from people who know the plans and are heavily involved with the roll out.

Blaenau makes a lot of sense as it removes the 150 which is rather awkward to get back to Canton if it fails. If Bidston goes over to 230s or 197s then you'd still need two class 150s up north if Blaenau remained a 150. Otherwise you're stuffed if it fails.

 

[craigybagel]

Do Holyhead train crew work the Blaenau branch? If they do then it's a good starting point for them as well, having it on a confined route rather than working Chester - Manchester or North Wales Coast line.

They do indeed, I believe pre Covid Llandudno Junction worked 4 trips and Holyhead 2 each day. Both Holyhead and Llandudno Junction also go all the way to Manchester though so they would need training for those services to go over to 197s as well. Also worth pointing that it's planned that from the May timetable change Manchester - Chester services will continue onto the North Wales coast as they did before.

Chester - Crewe has a mixture of Crewe and Cardiff Depots to throw into the mix as well. Options are limited.

The Chester - Crewe shuttle is worked by 5 different driver depots and 6 guards depots throughout the day (Holyhead, Llandudno Junction, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury and for guards only Cardiff), which I believe is one of the reasons why the original plan to have 230s work this route was abandoned.

There's very little chance the 197's will be in service anywhere except Chester - Liverpool by May timetable.
Isn't the 230 training already well under way? Are any drivers/guards passed out yet?

230 training has been undergoing for a while, but it's been pretty slow going. There are a number passed out, some of whom have been having refreshers to keep competent as it's so long since their original training, but I believe it's less then half of the full amount who are expected to get training eventually (Wrexham - Bidston is covered by all driver links at Chester, and all guards at Chester and Shrewsbury).

 

[NoMorePacers]

Minor question but have the 197s been fitted with guard's controls or are they like the 195s and 196s in that they've been specified without and require them separately fitting?

 

[craigybagel]

Minor question but have the 197s been fitted with guard's controls or are they like the 195s and 196s in that they've been specified without and require them separately fitting?

Guards panels are fitted - and unlike the 195s they even have guards panels in the cabs as well. At the time of ordering TfW had a commitment to keep guards on all services for the duration of the franchise, and the trains were designed accordingly.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Guards panels are fitted - and unlike the 195s they even have guards panels in the cabs as well. At the time of ordering TfW had a commitment to keep guards on all services for the duration of the franchise, and the trains were designed accordingly.

Alright, thanks. Good to see that they'll be properly optimised as opposed to the Northern and WMT units where it's an afterthought

The benefits of not having an attempt at introducing DOO imposed onto them perhaps!

 

[childwallblues]

The Manchester to Bangors are going back to the old days, atw used to run that service. It seems Llandudno jn may get that work they are getting an increase in traincrew.
The 197s are going to everywhere hopefully in multiple, that's why the coupling problems need resolving.

I'm intrigued how Chester will train 100 drivers on 197s and 70 on 230's by may TT change, they only way would be a dedicated 197 link and another dedicated 230 link but tfw scapped the 230 link idea long time ago.

I thought only 197001 was near testing completion but that's had to reset as it has MTU software issues, so the clock restarts on milage accumulation I was told ! It's nearly February and to achieve all of what one poster says in such a short amount of time is near on impossible whilst still running services and soon to be increased frequency services due to lowered restrictions.

We're is this information coming from please ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2022 ==


There's a big difference between what tfw want and what's actually achievable, the PR machine doesn't have the operational knowledge of traction training and depot route knowledge.

The Chester to Liverpool was chosen as its achievable and if there's problems which there will be, the services start and finish at Chester for the caf depot.
If the testing is on the route tfws other 197s on training runs can recover the unit effected and there's always 153s with an emergency coupler available in the area. This has all Been planned by the tfw team, to add another 2 routes and 2 depots immediately is quite baffling to be honest.

Also any problems with the units when in the Liverpool area can be dealt with at Northerns Allerton Depot which is on the route and services 195s. A 197 has alredy visited the depot and it has been reported that some 197 work may be done there on a temporary basis.

 

[wobman]

Also any problems with the units when in the Liverpool area can be dealt with at Northerns Allerton Depot which is on the route and services 195s. A 197 has alredy visited the depot and it has been reported that some 197 work may be done there on a temporary basis.

That's why the Liverpool route was the first phase route of the integration project, but the poster on here says that's changed now.
Until Chester depot gets the facilities to work on the caf units Allerton Depot will be needed, like you said a 197 recently had an MTU replacement at Allerton recently.

That's why I asked who is the source of this new plan for using 2 extra routes in May/ June, it just makes no logic to add all of the extra complexity to the project.

 

[wobman]

Chester - Liverpool is the ideal location, but if they need to speed things up after the initial intake and training, the next best option is Blaenau. There's some positives in using that line;
- It's a branch line, if it fails then it's not blocking anything else.
- Llandudno Jn has stabling space for a spare old unit should a member of train crew work a service that isn't signed off on 197s, easy to swap around.
- Lets face it, people that use that line are more used to a bus anyway, so if anything gets cancelled they won't bat an eyelid!

Do Holyhead train crew work the Blaenau branch? If they do then it's a good starting point for them as well, having it on a confined route rather than working Chester - Manchester or North Wales Coast line.

Chester - Crewe has a mixture of Crewe and Cardiff Depots to throw into the mix as well. Options are limited.

There's very little chance the 197's will be in service anywhere except Chester - Liverpool by May timetable.
Isn't the 230 training already well under way? Are any drivers/guards passed out yet?

There's only 30 Chester driver's that are trained on the 230s out of nearly 100, the poor reliability and covid restrictions have delayed the training.
So 2 Chester DIs are on the 230 project training up drivers and testing, 1 driver training 1 on the rescue unit. Its then 5 days to train up the driver, so that project has to keep running to get the 230's into service in May!

Then the 197 project has to train Chester DIs that can train up Chester driver's, the course is 5 days long with classroom and practical handling.
They then train up enough Chester driver's to enable the Liverpool route has 1 x 197 and 1 x sprinter unit on the Liverpool service from May TT.
This looks easy on paper but in the meantime tfw has to keep running services on a daily basis aswell as training driver's and trainee drivers at Chester. It's a complex project as the 197s are not ready to be handed over yet, they have technical issues to fix before that happens.

Adding the Conwy branch to the mix doesn't make sence, that's another 2 traincrew depots to train up on the 197s and how do the 197s get to Llandudno Junction every morning. Yes a Chester driver would driver it there every day as an ECS move, as it can't couple to either the sprinters and 175s that go to Llandudno Junction every morning !
That's 3x Ecs moves now to Llandudno Junction every weekday morning, the bay platform at Llandudno Junction is used for the Llandudno shuttle services every day.

Then what if the 197 fails ? A Chester driver would have to drive all the way to Llandudno Junction then either a Jn or Holyhead driver would need to rescue the failed unit. Then once dragged to Llandudno Junction the 197 would need to be dragged to Chester, if there a rescue unit kept at Llandudno Junction then 1x driver would have to babysit it every day as a rescue driver whilst the 197 is in service.

It's far more complicated than people think, especially as new units do fail quite often until reliability issues get resolved.

 

[wobman]

Blaenau makes a lot of sense as it removes the 150 which is rather awkward to get back to Canton if it fails. If Bidston goes over to 230s or 197s then you'd still need two class 150s up north if Blaenau remained a 150. Otherwise you're stuffed if it fails.

The 153s can be used to rescue 150s, the Blaenau branch could run 2x153s which will still be used on the crewe shuttles/ 1 Liverpool service/ plus for strengthening other sprinter services in the North.
The plan on the Wrexham to Bidston line is 1x150 and 1x230 from May tt, so a rescue train for a Bleanau 150 unit is no problem from May tt.

Plus 150s are pretty reliable units to be honest, they are simple units that are easy to fix compared to other units tfw use.

Adding the Bleanau branch to the 197 introduction project in May is far more complicated, they have to get the 197 to Llandudno Junction every morning!
Have a rescue 197 at hand with a driver traction trained on 197s, that can get the unit dragged from the branch line either a jn or Holyhead driver then get it to Chester. Then a Chester driver would have to drag it onto the depot.

Things always look simple on paper

 

[Jez]

When the 197s start entering services on the North Wales coast and to Liverpool I do hope the 'spare' 175s will be used to replace the 150s and 153s that still regularly turn up on Manchester to South Wales. It should certainly help with allocations having more 175s available when other units needs repairs or are in the wrong place.

When the timetable changes to a 2 hourly Swansea-Manchester and 2 hourly Milford-Manchester pattern what is going to happen to the missing Swansea-Carmarthen service every 2 hours? Will they simply introduce a new hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (with a 2 hourly extension to Pembroke Dock) or is something else going to happen?

 

[craigybagel]

When the timetable changes to a 2 hourly Swansea-Manchester and 2 hourly Milford-Manchester pattern what is going to happen to the missing Swansea-Carmarthen service every 2 hours? Will they simply introduce a new hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (with a 2 hourly extension to Pembroke Dock) or is something else going to happen?

Nobody knows. We don't even know for certain that the timetable is going to be alternating Swansea and Milford services - all we know is that MKIV operated services will only run as far as Swansea.

 

[Anonymous10]

When the 197s start entering services on the North Wales coast and to Liverpool I do hope the 'spare' 175s will be used to replace the 150s and 153s that still regularly turn up on Manchester to South Wales. It should certainly help with allocations having more 175s available when other units needs repairs or are in the wrong place.

When the timetable changes to a 2 hourly Swansea-Manchester and 2 hourly Milford-Manchester pattern what is going to happen to the missing Swansea-Carmarthen service every 2 hours? Will they simply introduce a new hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (with a 2 hourly extension to Pembroke Dock) or is something else going to happen?

its known in may Pembroke dock will regain its service to Swansea so one would presume this would help

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They didn't have a fleet of shiny new trains on order that would provide the capacity to allow enough space for 1st Class. The CAFs will run as 5 cars between Manchester and Swansea, which gives plenty of room for 1st.

Many's the time at Wilmslow station, I have seen a 2-car Class 175 unit deemed to be suitable for a Manchester to Milford Haven service, with no first class section.

We always used the first class section with seat reservations on the Class 185 TPE units when travelling from Manchester Airport to places such as Windermere, York and Durham.

 

[wobman]

When the 197s start entering services on the North Wales coast and to Liverpool I do hope the 'spare' 175s will be used to replace the 150s and 153s that still regularly turn up on Manchester to South Wales. It should certainly help with allocations having more 175s available when other units needs repairs or are in the wrong place.

When the timetable changes to a 2 hourly Swansea-Manchester and 2 hourly Milford-Manchester pattern what is going to happen to the missing Swansea-Carmarthen service every 2 hours? Will they simply introduce a new hourly Swansea-Carmarthen (with a 2 hourly extension to Pembroke Dock) or is something else going to happen?

The original tfw plan was 1x197 in and then 1x175 out, this could obviously change but unit storage will be a big problem if 175s are retained linger than planned.
Also Chester depot is going from Alstom to Caf control, there's limited unit storage at Chester. Holyhead is getting more sidings and there's rumours that Llandudno could be used for storage aswell as crewe gresty sidings.
The caf order is 77 units and 21 will be on the cambrian, the remaining 56 will have a base at Chester for heavy maintenance. Let's hope tfw have more detailed plans for unit storage!

 

[Caaardiff]

There's only 30 Chester driver's that are trained on the 230s out of nearly 100, the poor reliability and covid restrictions have delayed the training.
So 2 Chester DIs are on the 230 project training up drivers and testing, 1 driver training 1 on the rescue unit. Its then 5 days to train up the driver, so that project has to keep running to get the 230's into service in May!

Then the 197 project has to train Chester DIs that can train up Chester driver's, the course is 5 days long with classroom and practical handling.
They then train up enough Chester driver's to enable the Liverpool route has 1 x 197 and 1 x sprinter unit on the Liverpool service from May TT.
This looks easy on paper but in the meantime tfw has to keep running services on a daily basis aswell as training driver's and trainee drivers at Chester. It's a complex project as the 197s are not ready to be handed over yet, they have technical issues to fix before that happens.

Thanks for the info re Driver numbers.

Adding the Conwy branch to the mix doesn't make sence, that's another 2 traincrew depots to train up on the 197s and how do the 197s get to Llandudno Junction every morning. Yes a Chester driver would driver it there every day as an ECS move, as it can't couple to either the sprinters and 175s that go to Llandudno Junction every morning !
That's 3x Ecs moves now to Llandudno Junction every weekday morning, the bay platform at Llandudno Junction is used for the Llandudno shuttle services every day.

Then what if the 197 fails ? A Chester driver would have to drive all the way to Llandudno Junction then either a Jn or Holyhead driver would need to rescue the failed unit. Then once dragged to Llandudno Junction the 197 would need to be dragged to Chester, if there a rescue unit kept at Llandudno Junction then 1x driver would have to babysit it every day as a rescue driver whilst the 197 is in service.

It's far more complicated than people think, especially as new units do fail quite often until reliability issues get resolved.

I think you're reading too much into it. You can't plan for failures and most recovery protocols aren't that detailed. Either way, these 197's need to get in service, and sharpish. Confining them to just Chester - Liverpool has little benefit as it's only Llandudno Jn and Chester train crews that work to Liverpool.
The last thing TfW needs to be doing is running them back and forth on the north wales coast or into Manchester. A failure on those lines will cause far more disruption. At least on the Blaenau branch they are out of the way. If it's a big failure then the disruption will be less felt there than elsewhere. It then means 2 units in service doing training.

There's enough platforms under the current timetable for a workaround if the bay needs to be used at Llandudno Jn, as well as the rumoured stabling sidings that will be brought back into use. There's no need for a driver to sit with a unit all day, if the unit is there, there are ways and means to get a rescue driver.

The 153s can be used to rescue 150s, the Blaenau branch could run 2x153s which will still be used on the crewe shuttles/ 1 Liverpool service/ plus for strengthening other sprinter services in the North.
The plan on the Wrexham to Bidston line is 1x150 and 1x230 from May tt, so a rescue train for a Bleanau 150 unit is no problem from May tt.

Plus 150s are pretty reliable units to be honest, they are simple units that are easy to fix compared to other units tfw use.

There is no "rescue" unit for any of the lines in the North, Blaenau, Bidston, Liverpool or Crewe. Failures are dealt with by utilising what is available at the time it's needed.

Adding the Bleanau branch to the 197 introduction project in May is far more complicated, they have to get the 197 to Llandudno Junction every morning!
Have a rescue 197 at hand with a driver traction trained on 197s, that can get the unit dragged from the branch line either a jn or Holyhead driver then get it to Chester. Then a Chester driver would have to drag it onto the depot.

Things always look simple on paper

That's really not an issue. A DI or trainee can take the unit ECS, a 197 can be stabled at Chester as a rescue unit.

All this talk of failures, has there actually be one yet that has blocked any line for a long amount of time? I don't think so. Only very minor failures so far.

 

[wobman]

Thanks for the info re Driver numbers.

I think you're reading too much into it. You can't plan for failures and most recovery protocols aren't that detailed. Either way, these 197's need to get in service, and sharpish. Confining them to just Chester - Liverpool has little benefit as it's only Llandudno Jn and Chester train crews that work to Liverpool.
The last thing TfW needs to be doing is running them back and forth on the north wales coast or into Manchester. A failure on those lines will cause far more disruption. At least on the Blaenau branch they are out of the way. If it's a big failure then the disruption will be less felt there than elsewhere. It then means 2 units in service doing training.

There's enough platforms under the current timetable for a workaround if the bay needs to be used at Llandudno Jn, as well as the rumoured stabling sidings that will be brought back into use. There's no need for a driver to sit with a unit all day, if the unit is there, there are ways and means to get a rescue driver.


There is no "rescue" unit for any of the lines in the North, Blaenau, Bidston, Liverpool or Crewe. Failures are dealt with by utilising what is available at the time it's needed.


That's really not an issue. A DI or trainee can take the unit ECS, a 197 can be stabled at Chester as a rescue unit.

All this talk of failures, has there actually be one yet that has blocked any line for a long amount of time? I don't think so. Only very minor failures so far.

There's 1 flaw in your plan, Chester driver's don't sign the Bleanau branch. So how can a Chester driver rescue a failed 197 on the Bleanau branch ?

With all new traction there will be failures until the problems get resolved, it's an important element of the project planning. It's normal to do such planning, the 197s have had breakdowns during testing but that's expected. They have had Dpf failures and MTU problems, which are quite major issues to be honest. That's not including the multitude of software problems.....

Until the fleet gets more widespread throughout the tfw routes its got to be planned in, for example if you pass through crewe everyday there is still a rescue Drs thunderbird loco sitting in the neck between P11 and P12 to cover any Avanti failures.

Tfw integration team tested an emergency coupler on a sprinter until recently, but that will be in a last resort scenario as dragging a 197 at 5mph would not be fun.

 

[Anonymous10]

There's 1 flaw in your plan, Chester driver's don't sign the Bleanau branch. So how can a Chester driver rescue a failed 197 on the Bleanau branch ?

With all new traction there will be failures until the problems get resolved, it's an important element of the project planning. It's normal to do such planning, the 197s have had breakdowns during testing but that's expected. They have had Dpf failures and MTU problems, which are quite major issues to be honest. That's not including the multitude of software problems.....

Until the fleet gets more widespread throughout the tfw routes its got to be planned in, for example if you pass through crewe everyday there is still a rescue Drs thunderbird loco sitting in the neck between P11 and P12 to cover any Avanti failures.

Tfw integration team tested an emergency coupler on a sprinter until recently, but that will be in a last resort scenario as dragging a 197 at 5mph would not be fun.

especially on the mainline the delays and cancellations would be huge

 

[Jez]

Nobody knows. We don't even know for certain that the timetable is going to be alternating Swansea and Milford services - all we know is that MKIV operated services will only run as far as Swansea.

If they separated the Milford service from the Manchester's that would mean Cardiff would lose its direct service to stations such as Llanelli, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest. As it is Llanelli and Carmarthen are seeing a reduced number of direct services with the MKIV terminating in Swansea, unless there is to be another service we dont yet know about. Not having a direct service from say Pembrey or Llanelli to Manchester probably wouldn't be an issue as not many passengers would make the entire journey and a change at Swansea would be fairly easy with good connections. Perhaps there would be scope for extending the Swanlines to Carmarthen providing the 'missing' service between Swansea and Carmarthen. A few of them extend to Llanelli as it is.

There needs to be at least 3 services between Swansea and Llanelli/Carmarthen per 2 hours to at least maintain the pre covid timetable. Ideally at least 1 of the 3 should be direct to and from Cardiff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2022 ==

The original tfw plan was 1x197 in and then 1x175 out, this could obviously change but unit storage will be a big problem if 175s are retained linger than planned.
Also Chester depot is going from Alstom to Caf control, there's limited unit storage at Chester. Holyhead is getting more sidings and there's rumours that Llandudno could be used for storage aswell as crewe gresty sidings.
The caf order is 77 units and 21 will be on the cambrian, the remaining 56 will have a base at Chester for heavy maintenance. Let's hope tfw have more detailed plans for unit storage!

Yes thats a very good point re storage. So it could be one in one out. Hopefully TFW will be able to keep all the 175s when there are only a few 197s in service so we can see the benefit of the extra capacity. Even if it means stabling more 175s away from Chester overnight than there already are.

It the 175s are to go elsewhere they may not be able to leave one at a time.

 

[Caaardiff]

There's 1 flaw in your plan, Chester driver's don't sign the Bleanau branch. So how can a Chester driver rescue a failed 197 on the Bleanau branch ?

With all new traction there will be failures until the problems get resolved, it's an important element of the project planning. It's normal to do such planning, the 197s have had breakdowns during testing but that's expected. They have had Dpf failures and MTU problems, which are quite major issues to be honest. That's not including the multitude of software problems.....

Until the fleet gets more widespread throughout the tfw routes its got to be planned in, for example if you pass through crewe everyday there is still a rescue Drs thunderbird loco sitting in the neck between P11 and P12 to cover any Avanti failures.

Tfw integration team tested an emergency coupler on a sprinter until recently, but that will be in a last resort scenario as dragging a 197 at 5mph would not be fun.

I'm aware of that, there are ways and means to get drivers to where they need to be in the event of a rescue situation. It's really not as difficult as you make out. The Chester driver takes the 197 to Llandudno Jn for a LLJ or HHD driver to take over. Having a driver sat around all day babysitting a unit when there's chronic shortages of drivers even before the bulk of the training has started is a complete waste of resources.

The whole point of fault free mileage accumulation is to resolve "most" of the issues before it enters service with a TOC and for training. There's already rescue protocols in place for 230, Mk4's and 769s, so it's not as TfW departments haven't already got experience on what works and doesn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2022 ==

If they separated the Milford service from the Manchester's that would mean Cardiff would lose its direct service to stations such as Llanelli, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest. As it is Llanelli and Carmarthen are seeing a reduced number of direct services with the MKIV terminating in Swansea, unless there is to be another service we dont yet know about. Not having a direct service from say Pembrey or Llanelli to Manchester probably wouldn't be an issue as not many passengers would make the entire journey and a change at Swansea would be fairly easy with good connections. Perhaps there would be scope for extending the Swanlines to Carmarthen providing the 'missing' service between Swansea and Carmarthen. A few of them extend to Llanelli as it is.

There needs to be at least 3 services between Swansea and Llanelli/Carmarthen per 2 hours to at least maintain the pre covid timetable. Ideally at least 1 of the 3 should be direct to and from Cardiff.

It would make sense for the Milford Haven - Manchester services to remain on the 197's which split at Swansea, so effectively there would be no reduction in the 2 hourly service towards Milford Haven. The issues is the alternate 2 hourly service that terminates at Carmarthen. At a guess, as has already been said, I would think the Swansea - Pembroke service would connect into the Mk4 arrivals, along with maybe a few extra Cardiff - Pembroke and Cardiff - Fishguard services. I'd be very surprised if any services were lost West of Swansea with the introduction of the Mk4, with the exception of the long distance direct services to Manchester that start Carmarthen.

Yes thats a very good point re storage. So it could be one in one out. Hopefully TFW will be able to keep all the 175s when there are only a few 197s in service so we can see the benefit of the extra capacity. Even if it means stabling more 175s away from Chester overnight than there already are.

It the 175s are to go elsewhere they may not be able to leave one at a time.

Nothing has been published about the 175's leaving and introduction of 197 plan yet, so it's all speculation. That being said it's very unlikely the 175's will start to go as the first 197's enter service. There's too much risk in terms of train crew training and fleet clashes at the start. Once they are better bedded in then they will go 1 for 1. Maybe there will be a small batch retained that will all go together once the 197's are running comfortably. If there are going to be "spare" 175's, they will be there to cover 197 issues, not to boost capacity on other routes.

 

[wobman]

I'm aware of that, there are ways and means to get drivers to where they need to be in the event of a rescue situation. It's really not as difficult as you make out. The Chester driver takes the 197 to Llandudno Jn for a LLJ or HHD driver to take over. Having a driver sat around all day babysitting a unit when there's chronic shortages of drivers even before the bulk of the training has started is a complete waste of resources.

The whole point of fault free mileage accumulation is to resolve "most" of the issues before it enters service with a TOC and for training. There's already rescue protocols in place for 230, Mk4's and 769s, so it's not as TfW departments haven't already got experience on what works and doesn't.

The rescue protocol is to have a spare qualified driver to rescue the said units such as the 230's, im intrigued were does the Llandudno Junction or Holyhead driver come from if there's a limited amount of 197 qualified drivers ?

In the approx 3 months to May you think nearly 200 drivers would be trained up on the 197s or that tfw create a specific 197 link just to cover a lightly used branch line such as the Bleanau line & have spares at Chester trained ready to drive to just Llandudno jn ! I think they will struggle to get enough drivers ready for the Liverpool route by may tt change.

All eventualities were planned out in detail over the last 12 months regarding using initially the 1 route Chester to Liverpool, but this seemingly new plan has not been thought out by people with operational experience in that area.

I think some people have a very simplistic idea of how the railways work operationally, I did until I joined the railways & its not a criticism.