Chris Gibb to Run Public Sector Scotrail

[Newtraveller58]

I think your £2m a year is a significant under estimate. People outside the industry would be shocked at how quickly costs can mount up. As there is insufficient capacity in the current timetable, for a half hourly service an additional 2 x 4 vehicle trains (possibly 6 vehicle trains) will be required at a cost of c £300k per vehicle per year in leasing costs which is over £2m before you count train crew costs and maintenance costs for the trains, track and signalling. While that might not amount to the full £40m, there is also the return on the investment of the £80m cost of reopening the railway which will have to be borrowed. There will be some revenue but for a branch such as this with a relatively slow journey to Edinburgh, I would be surprised if the revenue was significant.

While I suspect we are not going to agree on this, I suspect we could agree that the incoming ScotRail management have some significant challenges ahead in service and financial matters.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think your £2m a year is a significant under estimate. People outside the industry would be shocked at how quickly costs can mount up. As there is insufficient capacity in the current timetable, for a half hourly service an additional 2 x 4 vehicle trains (possibly 6 vehicle trains) will be required at a cost of c £300k per vehicle per year in leasing costs which is over £2m before you count train crew costs and maintenance costs for the trains, track and signalling. While that might not amount to the full £40m, there is also the return on the investment of the £80m cost of reopening the railway which will have to be borrowed. There will be some revenue but for a branch such as this with a relatively slow journey to Edinburgh, I would be surprised if the revenue was significant.

While I suspect we are not going to agree on this, I suspect we could agree that the incoming ScotRail management have some significant challenges ahead in service and financial matters.

if you think the operating costs for a line such as this are going to be £40m, we are certainly not going to agree.

I have been involved in the costing of services similar to these - very recently - and this will be in the range £2m-£4m.

 

[Starmill]

I think your £2m a year is a significant under estimate. People outside the industry would be shocked at how quickly costs can mount up. As there is insufficient capacity in the current timetable, for a half hourly service an additional 2 x 4 vehicle trains (possibly 6 vehicle trains) will be required at a cost of c £300k per vehicle per year in leasing costs which is over £2m before you count train crew costs and maintenance costs for the trains, track and signalling. While that might not amount to the full £40m, there is also the return on the investment of the £80m cost of reopening the railway which will have to be borrowed. There will be some revenue but for a branch such as this with a relatively slow journey to Edinburgh, I would be surprised if the revenue was significant.

While I suspect we are not going to agree on this, I suspect we could agree that the incoming ScotRail management have some significant challenges ahead in service and financial matters.

The diesel fleet is already on lease. A new battery fleet will be in procurement by the time the service is inaugurated anyway.

Money isn't being borrowed in the industry, it is being awarded by the Scottish Government. Repayments on government borrowing are still due from the Scottish public (paid for through general taxation) but this is at incredibly low rates.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well fancy that, the rail unions are unhappy with the new nationalised Scotrail railway management:

MSN

Union leaders have criticised Scotland’s new railways boss, accusing the new publicly owned firm of treating its workers “in a more confrontational and provocative way than any of their failed private sector operators”.

Rail unions Aslef RMT TSSA and Unite claimed Chris Gibb, the chief executive of state-owned Scottish Rail Holdings, planned to “downgrade terms and conditions”, that the operator had rejected a no compulsory redundancy agreement, and had plans to cut staff rights to negotiate over pay.

In a joint statement on behalf of the four unions after they met with Mr Gibb, they said on Friday that “Scotland’s new rail operator has started their relationship with workers in a more confrontational and provocative way than any of their failed private operator predecessors – they must change their ways quickly”.

I think the moral is: be careful what you wish for...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the moral is: be careful what you wish for...

It certainly is... Unions have absolutely benefitted from privatisation in terms of being able to play TOCs off against each other on pay (causing a huge increase) and in terms of being able to stop DOO because the private TOCs don't want the hassle, whereas BR would have gone for it and SR may of course do that too.

 

[Starmill]

It certainly is... Unions have absolutely benefitted from privatisation in terms of being able to play TOCs off against each other on pay (causing a huge increase) and in terms of being able to stop DOO because the private TOCs don't want the hassle, whereas BR would have gone for it and SR may of course do that too.

I imagine that they will be... treated like all other public sector workers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well fancy that, the rail unions are unhappy with the new nationalised Scotrail railway management:

MSN

I think the moral is: be careful what you wish for...

Indeed Chris is no lightweight but suspect its just an opening gambit to remind them they are in a new world now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The staff, and TS/SG itself come to that, cannot complain about the "failed private sector operator" any more.
There is no way to change what they have been lobbying for since 1993.

I'd expect similar to emerge from TfW and GBR operations in due course, as they get to grips with costs and reduced service levels.

 

[hwl]

Indeed Chris is no lightweight but suspect its just an opening gambit to remind them they are in a new world now.

Indeed the party is over and the music has stopped but the unions haven't noticed yet (or are pretending not to have noticed).

 

[mcmad]

I imagine that they will be... treated like all other public sector workers.

I believe that is the core of their complaint, that other 'arms length' companies e.g. Calmac and Prestwick aren't being treated as public sector workers.

 

[Starmill]

I believe that is the core of their complaint, that other 'arms length' companies e.g. Calmac and Prestwick aren't being treated as public sector workers.

Is it really the case that CalMac staff aren't subject to the Scottish Government's public sector pay policy?

The quote from the article says:

Staff will become part of the Scottish Government’s public pay policy, but the unions said this was “an attempt to undermine railway workers’ existing pay and negotiating terms and conditions”.

What else might have been going to happen? Why was it imagined that 'nationalisation but with special exemptions from other nationalised conditions' was an option?

 

[Joe La Taxi]

Certain unions are an embarrassment. I think they should snowball the lot of them. Like said above they campaigned for years wanting this, now they get it and dont like it!!! If you look about at some of the union Reps, a lot of them are easily influenced people, with a nervous disposition and poorly educated, Why would anyone trust or take their advice is beyond me. They have made this bed along with the ridiculous poor pay rise acceptance in October. The original statement that came out today was NO compulsory redundancies. The unions whole business model is based on fear of losing your job to get members. They put a twist on it and removed the "NO" from the statement just to try and keep themselves relevant.

 

[Bald Rick]

I imagine that they will be... treated like all other public sector workers.

1) “we want to be in the public sector”
2) “we want private sector pay arrangements”

 

[Starmill]

1) “we want to be in the public sector”
2) “we want private sector pay arrangements”

But not the working practices of the private sector. Or the pension arrangements

 

[6Z09]

Here we go! Usual anti trade Union rhetoric, the Trade Unions are protecting their members jobs, terms and conditions ,something that is going to be gathering momentum throughout the whole industry in coming months.

 

[Kite159]

1) “we want to be in the public sector”
2) “we want private sector pay arrangements”

Remember they live in the late 1970s rather than the current climate of Covid recovery

 

[6Z09]

Remember they live in the late 1970s rather than the current climate of Covid recovery

Really? 1970s
What a silly statement.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here we go! Usual anti trade Union rhetoric, the Trade Unions are protecting their members jobs, terms and conditions ,something that is going to be gathering momentum throughout the whole industry in coming months.

I wouldn’t say it is “anti trade union rhetoric”.

More that it was ”bleedin’ obvious” that if you become a public sector organisation, you would have public sector pay arrangements. It seems rather rich to campaign for one and not accept the other.

Put it another way, as a direct question, had the unions made clear when campaigning for a return to the public sector that it would mean public sector pay arrangements, would you have agreed with the policy? The unions must surely have known - it was, as I say, obvious that it would happen.

 

[Prober]

Scottish Rail Holdings Ltd appear to be a public body. However does that make Scotrail a public body and it’s staff public sector workers.
I know it seems like an absurd question but I’m genuinely unsure.
I’ve had a looked over The National Public Bodies Directory and don’t see Scotrail Listed there. Maybe it will be updated in April.
However I did see Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd and Glasgow Prestwick Airport.
After carrying out a quick Google search of pay deals for those public bodies, previously private firms now taken over by the Scottish Gov. I found the following:
The Scotsman reported on the 30 Sept 2021, ‘staff at CalMac win 4.8 per cent pay deal’. The RMT won the deal after an initial offer of 0.5 per cent was rejected.
On the 28 Nov 2021 The Scotsman Reported, ‘SNP under fire as Prestwick Airport faces renewed criticism over wages’.
It seems the criticism was about advertising jobs below the real living wage, contrary to its public sector pay policy. It seems the Scottish Gov response was along the lines of, the Scottish government is indeed a real living wage employer, but ministers said that Prestwick is run at arm’s length.
My question then is. Will Scotrail be run by Scottish Rail Holdings as an arms length body on behalf of the Scottish Gov or will Scotrail be a fully fledged public body in a true nationalised manner subject to the public sector pay policy?
And if so, why is CalMac not subject to that same policy when that is listed as a public body?

​

 

[43096]

Here we go! Usual anti trade Union rhetoric, the Trade Unions are protecting their members jobs, terms and conditions ,something that is going to be gathering momentum throughout the whole industry in coming months.

Remind us how that went for the miners, will you?

 

[6Z09]

Remind us how that went for the miners, will you?

No industrial action can be taken without jumping through umpteen anti trade Union laws, members balloted, thresholds reached, so a very different world from the Miners strike.
Trade Unions are now very much member led, not dictated too by Union barons in ivory towers as some would still like to believe.
Indeed in a very recent instance the members have voted to take further action against Union recommendation to accept a resolution.

 

[Pit_buzzer]

6z09 is so entertaining, I'm actually rolling around laughing, it's hilarious listening to this bring back the 70s crap.
Wonder how the Labour Party would have dealt with the end of the coal industry. They must be so grateful the tories dealt with that one for them

 

[6Z09]

6z09 is so entertaining, I'm actually rolling around laughing, it's hilarious listening to this bring back the 70s crap.
Wonder how the Labour Party would have dealt with the end of the coal industry. They must be so grateful the tories dealt with that one for them

70s Crap???
No! your Tory Crap takes the biscuit.
One would think forums such as this would be inhabited by a few that have a clue about the Rail industry, obviously not.If you dont want an industry based feedback, that is fine and dandy, continue in your anti worker nonsense.

 

[Cowley]

Right then.

That’ll be the thread locked for a bit while everyone cools off a little…

Go and put the kettle on and have a breather please.