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Mixed gauge working on the GWR

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Eyersey468

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Before 1892 how common was mixed gauge working on the GWR? Some sources say that it wasn't allowed at all but the Board of Trade report on the Norton Fitzwarren crash of 1890 specifically refers to the use of a broad gauge pilot engine without making any adverse comment about it, which suggests it wasn't the only time it happened.
 
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Irascible

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I've always throught that would be a remarkably bad idea, given the offset drawbar pull & only one buffer being of any use unless there's a translator vehicle, but it undoubtedly happened sometimes. Never found any actual article about it, though.
 

Eyersey468

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I've always throught that would be a remarkably bad idea, given the offset drawbar pull & only one buffer being of any use unless there's a translator vehicle, but it undoubtedly happened sometimes. Never found any actual article about it, though.
I agree there were obviously dangers with misalignment of buffers etc.
 

edwin_m

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The centrelines of the two gauges would have been offset by about 1’2”. If the buffers were the normal size used on more modern stock, and at the same spacing in the two gauges, then I think both would have overlapped by only a few inches. This off-centre load might damage them and one vehicle lurching to one side might cause a buffer lock and derailment. If the BG buffer spacing was wider then one might be in line but the other would miss completely.

I wonder if the fact of it being a pilot was relevant. As long as they kept the regulator a bit open unless braking, and didn’t use their own brakes, the coupling would stay taut. If it was long enough (also to allow for the offset hooks) then in theory the buffers would never touch.

Coupling a locomotive to a lighter carriage of the other gauge might also risk the offset pull derailing it.
 

Gloster

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But were there four rails or only three? At stations there would have to have been only three in order to bring the coach doors close to the platforms, but this would have required a lot of additional pointwork.

EDIT: Study of various pictures on the internet suggests that three rails was the norm.
 
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Eyersey468

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But were there four rails or only three? At stations there would have to have been only three in order to bring the coach doors close to the platforms, but this would have required a lot of additional pointwork.

EDIT: Study of various pictures on the internet suggests that three rails was the norm.
I believe there were 3
 

Taunton

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But were there four rails or only three? At stations there would have to have been only three in order to bring the coach doors close to the platforms, but this would have required a lot of additional pointwork.
There were three rails. Sometimes they changed sides, for example at a platform, using an arrangement similar to points, which meant the signalman had to identify the gauge of the train.

I'm sure I've seen that some broad gauge locos were fitted with wide buffers to enable them to handle both types of stock **. I don't know whether the comment about mixed operation being prohibited was only about double-headed locomotives, rather than wagon haulage, or even where it came from. It's not in the Norton accident report, which one would have thought would be picked up by the inspector. Did Rolt just assume and write it in Red for Danger and it's been passed down since?

Notably the goods was narrow gauge and the boat train was broad gauge, so in the head-on collision the buffers, first point of contact, would not have matched either, and one would have thought would have skewed the trains.

** : Edited to say I've just found a picture of one, titled "Fenton with special buffers for working broad or narrow gauge stock." Here :


If you think about it, there would have been various impracticalities otherwise. The Wellington banker (which the assisting loco in the accident, though detached, was provided for), would need either these special buffers, or there would need to be two bankers provided, one for each gauge, to suit whatever train turned up.
 
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Rescars

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No doubt prohibitions of this sort from on high may well have been modified by local interpretation - especially in far flung corners of the system. However, IIRC not all pointwork was dual gauge. This would have made mixed gauge working through such turnouts more than a little challenging!
 

2192

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Did mixed gauge match trucks exist? Are there any pictures or drawings? I envisage a wagon with wide buffers, and perhaps couplings that could also slide from the centre line of one gauge to that of the other.
 

matchmaker

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Before 1892 how common was mixed gauge working on the GWR? Some sources say that it wasn't allowed at all but the Board of Trade report on the Norton Fitzwarren crash of 1890 specifically refers to the use of a broad gauge pilot engine without making any adverse comment about it, which suggests it wasn't the only time it happened.
Yes, mentioned by Tom Rolt in a footnote in "Red for Danger".
 
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