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Hypothetical question re. shorting Advance journey

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Pumbaa

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Technically not allowed, but practically you will get away with it, as many passengers do every day.

Until the Railway has a simple and easy ticketing structure, with good value for money fares, people will cheat the system. And if you can cheat and get away with it, all the better.

And plus Advance fares are a farce, and tie in with my desire to see an entire res-structuring of the ticketing system.
 
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....We can go around in circles arguing about it's relevance, and what the OFT have approved / not approved / not read etc. But I think that the principle is, at least, relevant to the notion that just because something is written down then it is automatically going to be binding.
OK taking this as read, then I expect the next complaint will be the substantial delays at booking offices as passengers are made clearly aware of the terms and conditions.....:roll:

Truly we move away from a being a Country where intellect rules to one where we have to pander to the lowest common denominator of intelligence.

Why should we weep ?
 

yorkie

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This has been discussed before, including in these topics (not the exact same situation, but referring to the same rules):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=517178
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36910
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36708

I have nothing to add to this topic, other than suggesting that in particular the OP (and anyone else interested) pays particular attention to the posts by DaveNewcastle in previous topics, where applicable.

Whether or not you will get away with doing something, or whether or not it is allowed, are not necessarily the same thing, and certainly aren't in this case.

And just because you are not allowed does not necessarily mean you will be 'punished'. EC's policy in the case of the Prof at Durham was to allow him to exit the station, and this has been confirmed by EC barrier/platform staff, what exactly happened in that case is disputed but what we do know is that, in line with EC's policy, the Prof was, ultimately, not charged an additional fare and any request for payment of an additional fare was cancelled.
 

Nick W

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This has been discussed before, including in these topics (not the exact same situation, but referring to the same rules):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=517178

Interesting, the only difference between this case and the OP's case is that the destination station once the two tickets have been combined is on a different route, rather than beyond the destination of the first train, and there's no overlap.

But the conditions state nothing about the destination station. The conditions only mention not being able to terminate the journey at an intermediate station. So the question is, why would a station on a branch be an intermediate station, if one beyond the destination on the first ticket isn't.

And just to muddy the waters, if someone points out that this is "changing trains" at an intermediate station, would the situation be different if the train splits at the station where the one might hypothetically wish to change between AP tickets. ;)
 

MikeWh

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Nick,

If you went to a booking office and said that you wanted to buy some tickets to make a journey, the clerk would make clear that the situation described by the OP would not be valid. As it is not valid, condition 19 does not come into play. For condition 19 to come into play, all the tickets must be valid and they must cover the whole journey. Invalidity might be as simple as trying to use an off-peak ticket when an anytime ticket is required, or as in this case, using an advance ticket against the special terms applied to that ticket. Taking the exact journey that the OP mentioned, break of journey is allowed (because it is required) at both Moorfields and Chester. It is not allowed between Chester and Hereford because that is the booked train. It really is as simple as that. If the ticket from Southport to Hereford had been a flexible walk-on ticket then there would be no problems.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm now wondering what condition I will be in breach of by not embarking on the booked journey at all!
You'd think that you should be, wouldn't you, but actually they deem loss of the purchase price punishment enough in this case. It is the aspect of this whole scenario that I can't reconcile, and the one which I think lays the railway open to ridicule. Use it properly or not at all - no penalty, use it in part - potentially massive penalty.

For further info, the journey concerned involves two changes, and only the final leg is on a booked (i.e. timed) train. I often take earlier trains from my starting station, to allow extra time for turnaround - loo breaks being one consideration as there are no loos on the first two trains. I trust this is allowed - no-one has ever challenged me anyway.
In my view, absolutely. Indeed it is often sensible, especially if any of the connections are close to the minimum. The booking engines will always provide you with a suggested itinery using the minimum connection times. Within reason you are free to take earlier trains. There is a small potential issue if an earlier train is run by a different company and has reservations available, but if you're just taking an earlier Merseyrail train, for example, then no problems.
 

hairyhandedfool

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The main problem is that terms used in the conditions are not properly defined and when you throw condition 19 into the mix it gets messy. The main problem is the term 'journey', as it appears in both sets of conditions with no definition. In this hypothetical situation the question is, is the passenger ending their journey short?

We could argue that it is not because the journey is completed on another ticket. However, when the ticket was bought the contract was for a journey to the destination as printed on the ticket, in that context the journey is ending short.

Until the powers the be confirm or deny either we can only say what may happen, or what is likely to happen.

I personaliy feel it is not within the rules as the journey agreed to by both parties at the time of purchase has not been completed, but as I have said previously, it may never get noticed.
 

Nick W

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Nick,

If you went to a booking office and said that you wanted to buy some tickets to make a journey, the clerk would make clear that the situation described by the OP would not be valid. As it is not valid, condition 19 does not come into play. For condition 19 to come into play, all the tickets must be valid and they must cover the whole journey. Invalidity might be as simple as trying to use an off-peak ticket when an anytime ticket is required, or as in this case, using an advance ticket against the special terms applied to that ticket. Taking the exact journey that the OP mentioned, break of journey is allowed (because it is required) at both Moorfields and Chester. It is not allowed between Chester and Hereford because that is the booked train. It really is as simple as that. If the ticket from Southport to Hereford had been a flexible walk-on ticket then there would be no problems.

I agree, except that the OP's hypothetical journey is not broken as break of journey involves leaving the station premises.

The main problem is the term 'journey', as it appears in both sets of conditions with no definition.
I totally agree - and I wonder why ATOC haven't cleared this up.
 

yorkie

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Taking the exact journey that the OP mentioned, break of journey is allowed (because it is required) at both Moorfields and Chester. It is not allowed between Chester and Hereford because that is the booked train
Actually a break of journey (as defined in the Conditions of Carriage) is not allowed anywhere on an Advance ticket. A break of journey is never required as the definition allows for all possible scenarios (including leaving station premises to board a train from another station e.g. walking from Lime St to Central or Moor St to New St etc, and at the direction of staff).

So, technically, someone on a London to Poppleton Advance ticket who misses the last train due to a delay is not allowed to arrange for a lift to pick them up from York and must arrange for EC to get them a taxi to complete their journey. Someone who just misses a train at Leeds and has a 1 hour wait is allowed to visit JD Wetherspoon, but is in breach of the conditions if they went to The Hop under the station (in reality they'd get away with it, but they would be invalid doing so). So, if in that situation, it's allegedly immoral and against the terms to get real ales from a pub that is right beneath the platform you may be leaving from and some would call you a 'fare dodger' and a 'criminal', but go to a pub at the far end of the concourse and you are totally legit. No-one is going to force people to stick to these terms; you make your own choice. To answer trainphile's question, you would "get away with it" but it is invalid. People can make their own minds up about that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree, except that the OP's hypothetical journey is not broken as break of journey involves leaving the station premises.
I agree it's not 'broken', but it may be considered to be a case of "end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket" which is allowed except in the case of "some types of tickets" (ie, Advance!) "for which a break of journey is prohibited" (in other words, they try to lump all these things together) "in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications." so you could possibly argue it wasn't "made clear" enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I totally agree - and I wonder why ATOC haven't cleared this up.
They probably think there is not much point. They can't prevent people doing this! But they may not want to legitimise/encourage it either.
 

Birdbrain

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I'd never risk messing around with advance tickets, they are good value for money and although you can get away with BOJ and stopping short, I'd rather not be in court!

The only thing that buggs me is how selective the routes are that offer advance tickets. I think that there should at least be a published list of routes where advance tickets are available, it would make journey planning a lot easier! That way you wouldn't keep having to searching different routes to see if any offered advances.
 

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Here's an interesting angle on the "not leaving the station" issue...

I have booked an Advance ticket for tomorrow, Southport to Hereford via Chester, through the Arriva Trains website. Incidentally, although the eastcoast website was even last week showing no Advance singles available at all for that journey for 29h December, ATW's website still had (and still has) £22 ones, which is what I've got. (Walk-on fare is £44). So first question is how does that happen? I thought they all used the same database.

Anyhow, all the National ticket booking websites seem to be under the impression that Merseyrail is only running hourly services this week, but they are in fact half hourly (confirmed this on my arrival on them yesterday).

So according to the journey info on my booking, I need to allow for an hour's wait at Moorfields (one minute connection time, insufficient to get from one line to the other), and another 56 minutes wait at Chester, thus making my total journey time well over five hours.

However, with my knowledge of Merseyrail's actual schedule, I can save half an hour's waiting time at Moorfields by taking the next Chester-bound train to come in, which, on top of the wait at Chester for my booked train, means I will be hanging around at Chester for an hour and a half.

Of course I could always set out later from Southport, but then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if some other factor (breakdown or some such) meant I missed my timed Chester train.

So to get to the point, I'm assuming I'm not breaking any rules if I board a train at Moorfields that is half an hour earlier than the one on my journey plan? And also, given the 1.5 hour wait at Chester, do the terms of my ticket still prohibit me taking a stroll beyond the station boundaries?

Given that the ticket booking contains erroneous connection information, I don't see how they could argue that I must (a) spend an hour at Moorfields draughty underground hellhole, and/or (b) kick my heels at Chester for 1.5 hours, when it would be much more pleasant to pass the time by leaving the station, even if just for a less-overpriced coffee!

I'm pretty sure I'd have to exit the station barriers at Chester to get to the ticket/travel information office, so I'm assuming the barrier staff are generally reasonable about such a request? I know while the Platform 4 toilets were being refurbished they had to let us through to use the toilets on the outside of the barriers, and that didn't seem to cause any raised eyebrows, even with Advance tickets.

Sorry about the waffle, I'm bored :roll: :D .
 
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yorkie

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I think that there should at least be a published list of routes where advance tickets are available, it would make journey planning a lot easier! That way you wouldn't keep having to searching different routes to see if any offered advances.
There is; in Avantix Traveller. (also see this)

It should, of course, be free. But it isn't.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Using station facilities is not breaking your journey if it is a station where you are due to change trains on an advance ticket. You can only leave the station building if you are required to do so to complete your journey (walking between local stations) or when told to do so by a member of staff (in an emergency, etc).

Using a reasonable non-reserveable service on a leg of the journey for which you do not have a reservation, is acceptable.
 

yorkie

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HHF - I agree with you (except I would remove the word "non-reserveable"); also the word "reasonable" probably should be replaced with "appropriate" as that's the word that ATOC use, although it's the same thing really (or is it? We can only guess as it's not defined! ;))
 

hairyhandedfool

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Well I as I am not currently able to see the routeing of the ticket I played safe with the 'non-reserveable' bit, in this case I don't think it matters though. Appropriate is a better choice of word in hindsight.
 

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HHF.
I think it would be a fair observation to make that most staff are reasonable and would not seek to implement rules for the sake of it.

Generally as long as a ticket is valid and permits a break of journey then there should be no reason for a problem if a person stops en route..

That said if the ticket is clearly valid only on a particular train , or a break of journey is not allowed then that is a fundamental condition for the use of the ticket which is something different.



Break of Journey
I have recently seen somewhere the comment that a break of journey is only considered to be such where a person exits the station. That was NOT the BR definition, which was to leave the train at an intermediate point, and / or to leave the station depending upon the circumstances.

To illustrate a single or return ticket was available to break journey and leave at an intermediate station as long as the journey was completed within the validity of the ticket.

In the case of a ticket which stated that no break of journey was permitted, then the break of journey would be alighting from the train at an intermediate point OTHER than a specified or designated station for changing trains.

For example, a London to Harrogate journey would be broken at York as this is the station where you would change. The same ticket however would NOT be valid for a break of journey at say Doncaster.
 

trainophile

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Don't suppose anyone would like to have a bash at explaining the logic behind some of the rather draconian rules for Advance tickets?

I accept that these rules exist, but fail to see why they are there in the first place, e.g. in the case of not breaking a journey, even the part which is not covered by a specific timed train. You are only taking the same amount of travel, so unless you stray into peak time periods I really cannot see why a break of journey should not be permitted.

If I am allowed to take an earlier Merseyrail train than that suggested in my journey plan, then why am I not allowed to take a later one when my journey ends with Merseyrail?

It all strikes me as being rather "because I say so".
 

Old Timer

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Don't suppose anyone would like to have a bash at explaining the logic behind some of the rather draconian rules for Advance tickets?

I accept that these rules exist, but fail to see why they are there in the first place, e.g. in the case of not breaking a journey, even the part which is not covered by a specific timed train. You are only taking the same amount of travel, so unless you stray into peak time periods I really cannot see why a break of journey should not be permitted.

If I am allowed to take an earlier Merseyrail train than that suggested in my journey plan, then why am I not allowed to take a later one when my journey ends with Merseyrail?

It all strikes me as being rather "because I say so".
These fares are offered at sometimes substantially reduced fares in order to encourage the development of a flow of traffic from one station to another.

A bad example but a simple one.

LM may want to encourage people to travel from Northampton to Birmingham New St rather than London for shopping, leisure, etc because there may be unused capacity on that route on particular trains. They will therefore offer a fare at a substantial reduction.

That is the purpose of the fare - to generate a flow of off peak passengers from Northampton to Birmingham New St.

Now if the fare is low enough, it may well be actually far lower than say Coventry to Birmingham New St where there is adequate provision and an adequate flow.

Now for all sorts of reasons it is important that the ticket is not available to be used from Coventry. Some of those reasons or indeed all of them might be :-

(a) LM would lose existing revenue if everyone bought the special fare ticket from Northampton and used that ;

(b) It may well encourage additional travel from Coventry, which although in theory would seem to be at odds with the principle of encouraging travel by people from Northamption, remember that each "new" Coventry passenger is paying less than the correct fare and this represents a loss. Therefore even more people would need to travel at the reduced price in order to recoup the losses, thus cancelling out the original reason for offering the cheaper ticket.

(c) LM are trying to discourage heavy traffic to London. People joining intermediately between Northampton and New St would actually increase the flows (with the resultant loss of revenue) and the Northampton passengers would simply go back to travelling to London because going to Birmingham was just as crowded.

(d) Northampton return passengers would have less chance of getting a seat because of the number of local travellers - remember they have increased because the fare is cheaper.

So how do you get round all those issues ?

Well simply you offer the ticket, but with very strict conditions, one of which would mean it is not valid for a break of journey. This has no impact upon Coventry to New St passengers because New St is their intended destination. It only becomes an issue for someone wanting to benefit from the fare but travelling to a station which is closer but in comparison more expensive.

I am reluctant to even address your MerseyRail query simply because ticketing holds no interest to me and in any case I have neither the time nor the intention, nor the wherewithall to review your ticket conditions. It may well be however that the ticket is issued on the basis of being used only on specified trains where there is a low usage. Travelling on a later (or even an earlier) train would feat the purpose of offering a specific ticket for designated trains.

As far as I know, no TOC has yet employed people who look to see if they can come up with ridiculous terms and conditions. These will be associated with some specific niche that the TOC wishes to use be it developing a traffic flow or filling underused trains. When you have the reasoning behind them then the ticket restrictions make more sense.

They only "dont make sense" because people want to try to use them outside the specific reasons for which they are offered in order to gain pecuniary advantage.

Similar reasoning and logic is used by airlines who make it cheaper to fly to South America via KLM and Schiphol rather than from the UK direct simply in order to support a reduced UK to Schiphol fare to encourage that flow of traffic.
 

trainophile

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Fair enough, thanks for the illustrations.

I think my problem is that I can't imagine why most people would decide where to go to just on the basis of the price of the rail ticket. Most people presumably live or work at A, and need to get to B. They might choose a particular train because it works out cheaper than an earlier or later one, but with the exception of your open-minded shoppers example, the rest of us are not lucky enough to be flexible about our starting point and destination.

I appreciate the logic a bit more now though, even if I do think the basic premise is somewhat flawed. Still, they own the trains, I just ride on them!
 

John @ home

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Break of Journey

I have recently seen somewhere the comment that a break of journey is only considered to be such where a person exits the station. That was NOT the BR definition
Leaving a station is a necessary (but not always sufficient) condition for breaking a journey under the current rules.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
C. USE OF TICKETS

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.
Break of journey is not defined in the British Railways Board's last National Conditions of Carriage dated 7 January 1997.
 
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Greenback

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Fair enough, thanks for the illustrations.

I think my problem is that I can't imagine why most people would decide where to go to just on the basis of the price of the rail ticket. Most people presumably live or work at A, and need to get to B. They might choose a particular train because it works out cheaper than an earlier or later one, but with the exception of your open-minded shoppers example, the rest of us are not lucky enough to be flexible about our starting point and destination.

I appreciate the logic a bit more now though, even if I do think the basic premise is somewhat flawed. Still, they own the trains, I just ride on them!

The whole premise of modern day pricing is that where people need to be somewhere, they are considered to be able to pay anything the TOC's ask, and be grateful. They are known as either commuters or business travellers.
Optional travellers, however, have a choice about where they go and how they get there, therefore they need to be encouraged to use the train with low fares.
 

hairyhandedfool

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HHF.
I think it would be a fair observation to make that most staff are reasonable and would not seek to implement rules for the sake of it.

Generally as long as a ticket is valid and permits a break of journey then there should be no reason for a problem if a person stops en route..

That said if the ticket is clearly valid only on a particular train , or a break of journey is not allowed then that is a fundamental condition for the use of the ticket which is something different....

I know not all staff stick strictly to the rules, it is good that most staff use common sense, not all do though.

It is interesting that you note 'as long as a ticket is valid'. Advance tickets are only valid on booked trains except where routed '& Connections' or where you have been delayed whilst travelling, they do not permit break of journey except to change trains either.

Provided there is no chance of missing a reserved service, I don't think a use of station facilities at other intermediate stations, during non-reserved legs of the journey, would be noticed, but that doesn't neccesarily mean it is allowed by the rules.
 

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Leaving a station is a necessary (but not always sufficient) condition for breaking a journey under the current rules. Break of journey is not defined in the British Railways Board's last National Conditions of Carriage dated 7 January 1997.
The definition of a break of journey was certainly set out in the Passenger Commercial Instructions Manual (PCI) - Does anyone remember THAT - and also within the Ticket Examiners Handbook (which was our Bible) and which was issued to TTI, Guards, barrier staff, Booking Offices, etc.
 

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I think my problem is that I can't imagine why most people would decide where to go to just on the basis of the price of the rail ticket. Most people presumably live or work at A, and need to get to B. They might choose a particular train because it works out cheaper than an earlier or later one, but with the exception of your open-minded shoppers example, the rest of us are not lucky enough to be flexible about our starting point and destination.

I agree, I don't imagine many people choose where to go on the basis of the cost of the tickets, rather they decide whether to take the train or not or change what time they travel.

I think the draconian rules exist mainly to stop people using the tickets for journeys other than which they were intended (eg so you can't find ways round buying an Anytime), and to restrict the number of cheap tickets available on individual trains.
 

John @ home

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I don't imagine many people choose where to go on the basis of the cost of the tickets.
I suspect the opposite. We decided to book the 2011 family holiday in South Wales rather than the South-West of England mainly because reasonably priced rail tickets are more readily available.

That's 260 miles each way for 6 adults and 2 children lost by XC and gained by TPE and ATW. The exact price for the party of 8 won't be known for several months yet.
 
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