Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Shrop]

You sound like my dad, jealous of those who did better than him!

Ha ha, but I don't think of that as applying to me. I could give you chapter and verse why, but it would a) bore people b) give the keyboard warriors something to pick on, and c) risk going off topic

 

[reddragon]

Ha ha, but I don't think of that as applying to me. I could give you chapter and verse why, but it would a) bore people b) give the keyboard warriors something to pick on, and c) risk going off topic

haha

I do otherwise agree with you, pointless 4x4s, SUVs and the damn daft hybrid that was good 2005-2015 but is now a dead pigeon (as Monty Python sketch)!

 

[Shrop]

I agree with the general principle, but don't forget that a 4 x 4 with road tyres does not *stop* any more easily than a normal car (all cars have braking on all four wheels) so they are being sensible by driving carefully in winter. You see plenty in ditches from people who don't get that.

True about not stopping. And we should always remember that something well over 90% of all drivers who end up in ditches, or any other accidents, do so because of lack of ability (or thought, or both), of either themselves or other road users to properly take driving conditions into account. Very, very few are the fault of the car. And yet what gets tested every year? The car, and NOT the driver, usually even after they have caused an "accident"!

 

[37424]

This is true. One of my cars is AWD and whilst it makes no pretence at being an off-road vehicle(!) it has very little grip on snow and ice. It’s all down to the tyres (235/35/R19 semi-slicks in this case).

Indeed I had a rear wheel drive BMW which are the most useless of vehicles in Snow, but if you put winter tyres on them they are fine.

As far as 4 wheel drive capability goes plenty of SUV style cars out there which are not 4 wheel drive these days, yes I'm sure there are plenty of Range Rovers and G Wagon's which never see a muddy field but its the style that people seem to want, personally I don't know why but anyway from an EV prospective should be much easier to do a 4 wheel drive EV than an ICE one, and only the cheapest Model 3 is not AWD for instance.

 

[Shrop]

You can say the same about almost any market. Housing for example. Watches. Gym membership. To pick three at random.

Ah, if only we lived in a more altruistic society. I went into transport for a career in the belief that it was all about finding ways for roads and railways to become more efficient, and also to encourage things like walking and cycling where reasonable. How wrong I was!

 

[thejuggler]

Its only when you experience AWD you understand why it is about far more than snow, its why I'm on my second.

 

[Bald Rick]

I went into transport for a career in the belief that it was all about finding ways for roads and railways to become more efficient,

so did I!

 

[jon0844]

I agree with the general principle, but don't forget that a 4 x 4 with road tyres does not *stop* any more easily than a normal car (all cars have braking on all four wheels) so they are being sensible by driving carefully in winter. You see plenty in ditches from people who don't get that.

Winter tyres are a bit more popular here than they were, but still far too few people invest. A FWD, even RWD, car with winter tyres would be better than a 4x4 - and as you say, plenty of 4x4 drivers assume they're invincible.

(Off topic) The problem is that you can change the tyres and have far better grip and traction, but you're only going to make progress as well as the vehicle in front of you. I realised this the hard way on a road where everything was going fine until vehicles ahead couldn't go on - and we got stuck waiting for them to sort themselves out.

 

[reddragon]

So do EVs with winter tyres pose a greater risk to the detriment of public transport, walking & cycling than an EV without?

Should buses & bikes have winter tyres to balance this?

 

[jon0844]

I do think buses should, as many companies stop running all buses after a single snowflake settles.

Perhaps they have more grip due to their weight and thicker tyres, and they just stop running because the traffic builds up (see above re; other people need to have winter tyres too) but I am sure it would help. Buses seem to run fine in Sweden and other cold countries that get snow and ice.

I strongly dislike walking in icy conditions as pavements aren't cleared and when temperatures teeter around 0%, any soft snow soon melts and refreezes making it harder to walk than countries that stay well below zero.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they have more grip due to their weight and thicker tyres, and they just stop running because the traffic builds up (see above re; other people need to have winter tyres too) but I am sure it would help. Buses seem to run fine in Sweden and other cold countries that get snow and ice.

Rear wheel drive causes a lot of challenges for buses in poor road conditions. With electrics, it might make sense for manufacturers to consider designs which have a smaller individual hub-mounted traction motor per wheel, allowing four wheel drive and traction control and removing the need for the raised floor at the rear for the axle (allowing a 100% low floor layout), as the wheels would be mounted independently. Also removes the need for a differential, which makes the vehicle mechanically simpler.

I strongly dislike walking in icy conditions as pavements aren't cleared and when temperatures teeter around 0%, any soft snow soon melts and refreezes making it harder to walk than countries that stay well below zero.

What you want is a pair of Yaktrax - in essence, snow/ice chains for pedestrians (or a simplified non-pointed crampon). They are very cheap (just 18 quid), can fit to any shoe or boot, and mean you can walk on sheet ice. They're amazing.

Do however avoid putting them on in a lino-floored kitchen unless you want imprints in the floor.

Bicycles are a nuisance on non-gritted roads (e.g. MK Redways). I don't generally ride mine if it's icy, gone flying one too many times. You can get studded tyres if you need to, though.

 

[jon0844]

What you want is a pair of Yaktrax - in essence, snow/ice chains for pedestrians (or a simplified non-pointed crampon). They are very cheap (just 18 quid), can fit to any shoe or boot, and mean you can walk on sheet ice. They're amazing.

I've got some clip on grips that I got in Sweden for my shoes. Not too dissimilar to what you mention. I still don't really like going out for too long, partially because I slipped once and sprained my wrist and now I'm perhaps overly cautious.

 

[The Ham]

Ah, if only we lived in a more altruistic society. I went into transport for a career in the belief that it was all about finding ways for roads and railways to become more efficient, and also to encourage things like walking and cycling where reasonable. How wrong I was!

Part of the problem is that there's still too many engineers who think that roads are for cars (and not all of them particularly old either!), of course having too many people thinking that think that any mode of transport other than car is for the minority doesn't help.

Children should be taught that whilst cars are wonderful and have given us many great benefits, the opening of them isn't essential for the majority of people, nor should they be used by default when it comes to every trip. Unfortunately if a child is driven to school then they "learn" that going by car is the normal way of traveling and so that's what they want to do when they are older, even when walking/cycling/public transport may be more suitable.

Unfortunately government policy is contradictory, for example 2km is a suitable distance to walk to school, yet 3 miles (~5km) is when free school transport is provided. Which wouldn't be too bad of the 3 mile route had to be passable whilst pushing a cycle (so that for at least some of the route could be cycled), only the assessment of such walking routes assume that you can climb over gates, can pass through isolated woodland, doesn't consider that parents accompanying said child doesn't have other children with them (i.e. in a buggy) or to get to school (i.e. one at a primary school and one at a secondary school), not does it consider the fact that traffic had increased just a little bit since the routes were set.

I do think buses should, as many companies stop running all buses after a single snowflake settles.

Perhaps they have more grip due to their weight and thicker tyres, and they just stop running because the traffic builds up (see above re; other people need to have winter tyres too) but I am sure it would help. Buses seem to run fine in Sweden and other cold countries that get snow and ice.

I strongly dislike walking in icy conditions as pavements aren't cleared and when temperatures teeter around 0%, any soft snow soon melts and refreezes making it harder to walk than countries that stay well below zero.

In one country (I forget which) they found that it was better to grit the paths and leave the roads until later. The problem is the people setting policy are too car focused.

 

[DustyBin]

Indeed I had a rear wheel drive BMW which are the most useless of vehicles in Snow, but if you put winter tyres on them they are fine.

Yes they get a bad rep (to be fair so do other RWD cars) but they're fine with appropriate tyres. I've found as well that modern traction control etc. can be a hinderance at times in the snow. That applies to FWD cars as well.

 

[miami]

Should buses & bikes have winter tyres to balance this?

We had a few snowy winters when I lived and commuted in London. Several times the trains down the WCML would be fine, but snow in London meant no busses and very little traffic.

I rode my Brompton at that time, and didn't have a problem with the surface (basically ride slowly in a straight line, practically stop before turning), but did have a constant issue with snow getting in the chain causing it to slip.

Unfortunately government policy is contradictory, for example 2km is a suitable distance to walk to school, yet 3 miles (~5km) is when free school transport is provided. Which wouldn't be too bad of the 3 mile route had to be passable whilst pushing a cycle (so that for at least some of the route could be cycled), only the assessment of such walking routes assume that you can climb over gates, can pass through isolated woodland, doesn't consider that parents accompanying said child doesn't have other children with them (i.e. in a buggy) or to get to school (i.e. one at a primary school and one at a secondary school), not does it consider the fact that traffic had increased just a little bit since the routes were set.

Oddly my kids get a free bus to primary school and it's a lot less than 5km. While there aren't any pavements, the roads are very quiet, when we go for a walk or ride at the weekend it's rare that we see a car. Not that I'm complaining

It's one area that America does seem to do well - the school bus appears to be the default means of transport - at least at primary school age (at least based on Simpsons, South Park etc, and the sheer number of yellow school buses I saw the first time I went to New York)

 

[The Ham]

Oddly my kids get a free bus to primary school and it's a lot less than 5km. While there aren't any pavements, the roads are very quiet, when we go for a walk or ride at the weekend it's rare that we see a car. Not that I'm complaining

It's one area that America does seem to do well - the school bus appears to be the default means of transport - at least at primary school age (at least based on Simpsons, South Park etc, and the sheer number of yellow school buses I saw the first time I went to New York)

That isn't that odd, although getting rarer with council cuts, however the walking route has to be deemed as unsafe. Of course that could be the difference between what's seen at peak times and during the weekends. Another factor could be the safety of the route during the winter months (which tends to be more of an issue the further north due to shorter hours of daylight).

 

[david1212]

This is true. One of my cars is AWD and whilst it makes no pretence at being an off-road vehicle(!) it has very little grip on snow and ice. It’s all down to the tyres (235/35/R19 semi-slicks in this case).

Indeed I had a rear wheel drive BMW which are the most useless of vehicles in Snow, but if you put winter tyres on them they are fine.

Every time there was snow a past work colleague would retell that he once had a Fiat 126 and even though rear wheel drive as the weight was over the wheels he could get about where others failed.
Another previous colleague had big trouble with his BMW.

Whatever the layout fat tyres don't help either. If you look at winter world rally races narrow tyres as well as studs.

Generally I wonder how e-cars will perform in snow and ice due to a different weigh balance / distribution ? Also with no clutch beyond a light foot totally reliant on the control system. If stuck in theory rapid changes from forward to reverse should be possible. In reality will the control system limit this ?

 

[trebor79]

Generally I wonder how e-cars will perform in snow and ice due to a different weigh balance / distribution ? Also with no clutch beyond a light foot totally reliant on the control system. If stuck in theory rapid changes from forward to reverse should be possible. In reality will the control system limit this ?

Having hired and test driven a couple, they are waaaay easier to manage than a throttle and clutch. If someone said "can you move the car 2mm please?" it would be no problem at all.
Years ago I had an Alfa Romeo MiTo that had an "all weather" mode. I used it in anger a couple of times. Most notably driving up the very steep lane to Barbury Castle in the middle of winter and the road completely covered with back ice. I ended up with the throttle on the floor and the electronics just looked after the revs and power delivery and it walked up that hill no bother at all. It was quite a stage feeling, but very impressive.
That sort of thing is even easier with an electric drivetrain.

 

[AM9]

Every time there was snow a past work colleague would retell that he once had a Fiat 126 and even though rear wheel drive as the weight was over the wheels he could get about where others failed.
Another previous colleague had big trouble with his BMW.

Whatever the layout fat tyres don't help either. If you look at winter world rally races narrow tyres as well as studs.

Generally I wonder how e-cars will perform in snow and ice due to a different weigh balance / distribution ? Also with no clutch beyond a light foot totally reliant on the control system. If stuck in theory rapid changes from forward to reverse should be possible. In reality will the control system limit this ?

Responsive wheelslip control should be much easier than for a train as the masses and consequently reponse times will be a lot lower. The problem with an ICE is that torque is very low at low speeds but rotating mass is high, so even if the engine is immediately shut down, the inertia in the roatating engine is likely to start a slip. That leaves using the brakes to stop the wheels slipping, but there is no mechanism to control a very low speed at the wheel. EVs can control the speed of the driven wheels in the same way as a SEPEX loco but using the ability to create very low motor shaft speeds using the three phase drive electronics.

 

[JohnMcL7]

So do EVs with winter tyres pose a greater risk to the detriment of public transport, walking & cycling than an EV without?

Should buses & bikes have winter tyres to balance this?

With the much lower purchase and running costs of a bike I have a full winter bike rather than just the wheels and it can handle pretty much anything with ease with the tremendous traction it has, huge amount of fun for leisure riding and a very useful tool to get about when conditions are treacherous for the car.

 

[dgl]

To add to the EV discussion, my Step-Mum has had her electric car (a Volkswagen id.3) for a couple of weeks now and is probably going to give Motability a call to see if she can swap it.
Naturally one of her issues is that she has no facilities to charge it at home and so has to charge it on the move and has found the lack of rapid chargers nd the need to have multiple apps a nusiance.
My Dad also hates the way it intervenes all the time if it thinks you are doing something wrong when you aren't (like thinking you are getting to close to the car in front when you are not), the fact that it turns on by someone sitting in the driving seat (so it wouild appear you can't sit in the drivers seat with it "dead" to save battery and when they have been to the dealer the service haas not been good.

Will probably mean she'll go back to a Hyundai or Kia, probably another Ioniq or their new small SUV as that;s pretty much all Motability seem to be offering in the nil advance and low advance payment brackets.

Personally given her situation I thought going electric wasn't feasible yet and it looks like that is the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My Dad also hates the way it intervenes all the time if it thinks you are doing something wrong when you aren't (like thinking you are getting to close to the car in front when you are not),

I suspect in actual fact he is. Most drivers drive too close to the car in front at most times.

 

[dgl]

I suspect in actual fact he is. Most drivers drive too close to the car in front at most times.

I don't think so, he reckons he was at least 5 car lengths behind and he is a good driver. He does like to rest his hand on the gear lever, though, which is something else he hates about the id.3, as naturally being electric it does not need a regular gear lever.

Also as I understand it the Ioniq that they had previous had a lot of the same safety tech yet none of the same issues.

 

[AM9]

I don't think so, he reckons he was at least 5 car lengths behind and he is a good driver.

That depends on the speed. It would be dangerous at 70mph - Five car lengths is about 20-25m. The minimum safe distance with perfect road conditions is 96m at 70mph. No wonder the safety system keeps taking over. Still all cars will have the capability soon, even CO2 generators.

He does like to rest his hand on the gear lever, though, which is something else he hates about the id.3, as naturally being electric it does not need a regular gear lever. Also as I understand it the Ioniq that they had previous had a lot of the same safety tech yet none of the same issues.

Resting a hand on a gear lever (other than when changing gear) is not good driving practice. Both hands should be on the steering wheel. However, if a driver is having a problem breaking the habit, a dummy 'hand rest' could be rigged up.

 

[bspahh]

I don't think so, he reckons he was at least 5 car lengths behind and he is a good driver. He does like to rest his hand on the gear lever, though, which is something else he hates about the id.3, as naturally being electric it does not need a regular gear lever.

Also as I understand it the Ioniq that they had previous had a lot of the same safety tech yet none of the same issues.

5 car lengths of an ID 3 is 21.3m. To get a 2 second gap, you would be going at 24mph. If he is driving faster than that, then I think he would be better to give a bigger gap

 

[trebor79]

I suspect in actual fact he is. Most drivers drive too close to the car in front at most times.

I test drove an ID3 and it was constantly warning me about this that and the other and screaming at me for drifting out of the lane when I wasn't.
IMV all this tech in cars is going a bit far and is very distracting. I learnt to drive in an original model Nissan Micra. I don't think I was any less likely to crash it than a modern car (though of course crashing a modern car is far preferable to crashing one of those death traps).

 

[AM9]

I test drove an ID3 and it was constantly warning me about this that and the other and screaming at me for drifting out of the lane when I wasn't.
IMV all this tech in cars is going a bit far and is very distracting. I learnt to drive in an original model Nissan Micra. I don't think I was any less likely to crash it than a modern car (though of course crashing a modern car is far preferable to crashing one of those death traps).

So did almost every other driver learn and pass their test in a totally assist-device free car. That doesn't seem to stop the high number of rear-end collisions and other worse incidents cause by inadequate space between vehicles. Apart from the few who deliberately drive too close to intimidate safe drivers, there's plenty who think that their driving skills don't need the minimum stopping distance between vehicles. If a driver can't be bothered to check in the highway code for stopping distances, then the well publicised two seconds gap between vehicles would be satisfactory, - at 70 mph, that's 62.5m, about three times the length of 5 id3s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think so, he reckons he was at least 5 car lengths behind and he is a good driver.

I suspect he was closer than he thinks. The "two second rule" is a lot more gap than most drivers leave.

He does like to rest his hand on the gear lever, though, which is something else he hates about the id.3, as naturally being electric it does not need a regular gear lever.

That is a good way to wear out your synchromesh, a very expensive fix!

 

[dgl]

That is a good way to wear out your synchromesh, a very expensive fix!

They have had automatics for quite a while though as leg issues means my step-mum can't drive a manual.

 

[The Ham]

I don't think so, he reckons he was at least 5 car lengths behind and he is a good driver. He does like to rest his hand on the gear lever, though, which is something else he hates about the id.3, as naturally being electric it does not need a regular gear lever.

Also as I understand it the Ioniq that they had previous had a lot of the same safety tech yet none of the same issues.

I suspect that if they've decided that an EV isn't for them that there maybe an element of fault finding with other features.

Whilst it could be possible that the warning is set at a greater distance than the previous car, it could well have been that they are used to driving with (say) a 1.7 second gap whilst the new car is set to a 1.9 second gap. That would mean that the old car didn't throw up warnings, but the new car does.

Interestingly the emergency stopping distances given in the highway code are sub 1 second, however having spoken to Met Traffic Cops they would say that only those who are trained to a very high level would likely react that quickly and only if they'd only been on that trip for about 45 minutes.

Few people are as good a driver as they think they are, often the fact that they've not had an accident is more to do with luck (i.e. braking before that bit of ice) than their actual driving skill.

It's why few road users would actually welcome driver assessments at regular intervals as almost no one on the roads would actually be able to pass a driving test of they were asked to do one next month as they've got into too many bad habits. For example very few use their mirrors as much as they should for a test.