Why do UK bus operators not use basic measures used everywhere else to speed the service?

[Bletchleyite]

You really don’t have a clue! If you are a bus driver and this is your experience then there’s issues with your employer.
The only conversations I have with my passengers are pleasant friendly chats. Very rarely have to field a complaint or confused passenger

But those chats slow the service down. The purpose of the service is to take people somewhere, ergo the service that does that the quickest is providing the best customer service.

I can however accept that priorities differ in rural areas, but there is really no good reason for the approach in Manchester to differ from London.

 

[Man of Kent]

I can however accept that priorities differ in rural areas, but there is really no good reason for the approach in Manchester to differ from London.

Apart from the huge difference in subsidy?

Last time I researched it properly, London's buses had a £600m annual operating deficit. The rest of England spent about £400m on service subsidy.

 

[RT4038]

Many trams in Britain use that system, even in high crime areas like the notorious Oldham loop line. In Nottingham they even replaced conductors with machines quite recently.

There are hardly any trams in this country, and those that there are being concentrated on a relatively very small number of routes. The same cannot be said about bus services, where ticket inspection would likely occur only rarely. I would suggest that UK buses have a high level of fare collection compared to countries relying on open boarding and ticket controllers.

I was riding in a tram car in Vienna. Three scruffy passengers boarded and, when the doors shut, revealed they were ticket inspectors. Of the eight passengers in the car, only I had a valid ticket.......

 

[johncrossley]

There are hardly any trams in this country, and those that there are being concentrated on a relatively very small number of routes. The same cannot be said about bus services, where ticket inspection would likely occur only rarely. I would suggest that UK buses have a high level of fare collection compared to countries relying on open boarding and ticket controllers.

I was riding in a tram car in Vienna. Three scruffy passengers boarded and, when the doors shut, revealed they were ticket inspectors. Of the eight passengers in the car, only I had a valid ticket.......

There are relatively few trams compared to buses but the point is that open boarding exists in Britain, so that is a counter-example to the usual argument that things can't ever be changed because of British culture etc. Ticket checks on buses are almost unheard of outside London, but they do happen in London. Sometimes with the police, as ticketless travellers are often crime suspects.

 

[Stan Drews]

Perhaps one of the posters that regularly wax lyrical about how great things are in London, could maybe research the average speed of buses there, and advise how they compare with those in other parts of the UK? It would be interesting to see how much the quick boarding times improve the average speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps one of the posters that regularly wax lyrical about how great things are in London, could maybe research the average speed of buses there, and advise how they compare with those in other parts of the UK? It would be interesting to see how much the quick boarding times improve the average speed.

If you combine fast boarding and alighting with fast progress, what you get is of course even better.

 

[johncrossley]

Perhaps one of the posters that regularly wax lyrical about how great things are in London, could maybe research the average speed of buses there, and advise how they compare with those in other parts of the UK? It would be interesting to see how much the quick boarding times improve the average speed.

The extreme traffic conditions means that fast boarding is even more important. In London, the sheer volume of passengers also means that fast boarding is critical. In the early 2000s it was getting to the stage that the slow boarding was causing a severe bottleneck in capacity. Ticketing had already been simplified but there were still a lot of people paying in cash. Hence various initiatives including roadside ticket machines, finding Routemasters from outside London and using crew operation on regular double deckers. These were short lived experiments and obviously Oyster was the solution that worked.

 

[Stan Drews]

The extreme traffic conditions means that fast boarding is even more important. In London, the sheer volume of passengers also means that fast boarding is critical. In the early 2000s it was getting to the stage that the slow boarding was causing a severe bottleneck in capacity. Ticketing had already been simplified but there were still a lot of people paying in cash. Hence various initiatives including roadside ticket machines, finding Routemasters from outside London and using crew operation on regular double deckers. These were short lived experiments and obviously Oyster was the solution that worked.

Any idea on how the average bus speeds (mph) compare?

 

[johncrossley]

Any idea on how the average bus speeds (mph) compare?

London is slower of course, as the traffic is much more severe. Apart from sheer volume of traffic, you have whole boroughs with 20 mph zones (which are a good thing, but they slow down buses) and regular road closures due to protests, marches, accidents, crime scenes, diplomats and VIPs getting blue lighted etc. It would be even slower with slow boarding techniques.

 

[Stan Drews]

London is slower of course, as the traffic is much more severe. Apart from sheer volume of traffic, you have whole boroughs with 20 mph zones (which are a good thing, but they slow down buses) and regular road closures due to protests, marches, accidents, crime scenes, diplomats and VIPs getting blue lighted etc. It would be even slower with slow boarding techniques.

I realise you are taking the politicians route in relation to answering the question, so I’ll assume that bus speeds are actually lower in London. Therefore, whilst speedier boarding could have an impact on average bus speeds in provincial towns and cities, it is really bus priority measures and other ways of improving the general traffic flow that will really make a big difference …just like several others have tried to point out!

The further north you go, you realise the more people are happy to talk to other people, even strangers, as they go about their day to day business, including travelling. Yes, it might add a few seconds to their journey, but did you know that in some towns and cities ‘up North’ and in Scotland/Wales/Independent Republic of Cornwall, people can actually cope with their journey maybe taking a minute longer, as it honestly doesn’t ruin their day! Hard to believe, but true.

 

[johncrossley]

I realise you are taking the politicians route in relation to answering the question, so I’ll assume that bus speeds are actually lower in London.

I said "London is slower of course". How is that a politician's answer?

Of course bus priority is the best way of speeding up buses. That goes without saying. The point of this thread is to discuss whether operators can do more to speed up buses
all other things being equal.

It might be interesting to look at existing BRT schemes, as that avoids priority clouding the issue. The busways in Bristol and Crawley have double door buses. Does anywhere else? The Bristol scheme also has roadside ticket machines. I know the Cambridge to St Ives busway has some ticket machines but driver payment seemed to be pretty common on most of the route from my experience travelling on it a few times. The Leigh busway doesn't seem to do anything special regarding boarding or ticketing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course bus priority is the best way of speeding up buses. That goes without saying. The point of this thread is to discuss whether operators can do more to speed up buses
all other things being equal.

All other things being equal? - you think that the phenomenal amounts of investment that London has had might not be skewing things a tad? Just look at how much it cost to introduce the Oyster Card....

 

[johncrossley]

All other things being equal? - you think that the phenomenal amounts of investment that London has had might not be skewing things a tad? Just look at how much it cost to introduce the Oyster Card....

Other operators have had ITSO. It is flawed but some operators have made much more use of it than others. Of course, the government should have mandated widespread smartcard usage, with the associated regulation and funding if required. Letting operators do their own thing was always going to mean poor implementation. Ultimately, everything is the fault of (or thanks to) the government as they are the ones setting the rules.

Before Oyster, London used to sell books of bus tickets. Other operators could have implemented something similar if they had implemented flat fares. Given that many towns now have flat fares within urban areas, it sounds hard to believe that they couldn't have done that 20 years ago.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Other operators have had ITSO. It is flawed but some operators have made much more use of it than others. Of course, the government should have mandated widespread smartcard usage, with the associated regulation and funding if required. Letting operators do their own thing was always going to mean poor implementation. Ultimately, everything is the fault of (or thanks to) the government as they are the ones setting the rules.

Before Oyster, London used to sell books of bus tickets. Other operators could have implemented something similar if they had implemented flat fares. Given that many towns now have flat fares within urban areas, it sounds hard to believe that they couldn't have done that 20 years ago.

However, you have to understand that the financial resources that TfL had completely alter the equation between London and the provinces. Early and wide adoption of ITSO, flat fares, higher PVRs from having vehicles with lower seating capacities etc are all much easier when you don't have the financial constraints that commercial operators have. London style or European style transport comes with a price tag, and compared to our European cousins, we aren't prepared to tax people to enable this either via direct taxation or indirectly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I realise you are taking the politicians route in relation to answering the question, so I’ll assume that bus speeds are actually lower in London. Therefore, whilst speedier boarding could have an impact on average bus speeds in provincial towns and cities, it is really bus priority measures and other ways of improving the general traffic flow that will really make a big difference …just like several others have tried to point out!

And my reply remains as before - it is not either-or, you want both.

The further north you go, you realise the more people are happy to talk to other people, even strangers, as they go about their day to day business, including travelling. Yes, it might add a few seconds to their journey, but did you know that in some towns and cities ‘up North’ and in Scotland/Wales/Independent Republic of Cornwall, people can actually cope with their journey maybe taking a minute longer, as it honestly doesn’t ruin their day! Hard to believe, but true.

Ask those in their cars because the bus is so slow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2022 ==

Other operators have had ITSO. It is flawed but some operators have made much more use of it than others. Of course, the government should have mandated widespread smartcard usage, with the associated regulation and funding if required. Letting operators do their own thing was always going to mean poor implementation. Ultimately, everything is the fault of (or thanks to) the government as they are the ones setting the rules.

Of course tap on tap off contactless (and passes) are now possible, which only costs (compared with traditional payment by contactless) the price of the tap off module on the pole.

Before Oyster, London used to sell books of bus tickets. Other operators could have implemented something similar if they had implemented flat fares. Given that many towns now have flat fares within urban areas, it sounds hard to believe that they couldn't have done that 20 years ago.

You wouldn't even need to go flat fare, just to tweak the fares so they are understandable so people know which of e.g. three or four price levels to buy. There are only four in Milton Keynes - it wouldn't be much of a tweak to change them so they were understandable, as they are close to it now - single within the centre, short single, long single, cross city single. Only the middle two are a bit unclear, and you could just merge them on a revenue neutral basis as they don't differ by much.

 

[johncrossley]

However, you have to understand that the financial resources that TfL had completely alter the equation between London and the provinces. Early and wide adoption of ITSO, flat fares, higher PVRs from having vehicles with lower seating capacities etc are all much easier when you don't have the financial constraints that commercial operators have. London style or European style transport comes with a price tag, and compared to our European cousins, we aren't prepared to tax people to enable this either via direct taxation or indirectly.

The Go-Ahead firms implemented a wide range of ITSO tickets despite being deregulated about 10 years ago, so why not the others? Birmingham has a near London style contactless system, so why not Manchester?

If flat fares are possible in so many towns in 2022, then they would have been possible in 2002 as it was a much less harsher time to operate buses. The existence of urban stage based fares are more to do with the fact that buses in Britain have had them for decades, i.e. including before deregulation, so it is basically tradition. Even London had stage based fares until the 90s.

Buses are single door because of tradition. Single door became the standard in the 70s so the habit was maintained. If Britain had used two door single deckers like most countries long ago then it is likely that nobody would have even thought about using single door buses.

 

[Geordie driver]

One reason single door entrance is favoured is fare evasion.

As the driver clearly doesn't have enough to do driving and selling tickets, in many areas they now expect them to do the inspectors job too.

In normal times late night buses it is hard enough to get people to pay as it is, dual doors and it would be much worse.

There is no support structure from the company for drivers out on the road.

I think fare evasion is one of the reasons my old company was so reluctant to fit attack screens, people are more inclined to walk past you. My direct experience.

 

[RT4038]

There are relatively few trams compared to buses but the point is that open boarding exists in Britain, so that is a counter-example to the usual argument that things can't ever be changed because of British culture etc. Ticket checks on buses are almost unheard of outside London, but they do happen in London. Sometimes with the police, as ticketless travellers are often crime suspects.

Pardon me, ticket checks are universal on buses outside London - they are done by the driver. No ticket, no ride. In fact very similar to , aside from a small number of countries mainly in Europe, everywhere else in the world, sometimes by a separate conductor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pardon me, ticket checks are universal on buses outside London - they are done by the driver. No ticket, no ride. In fact very similar to , aside from a small number of countries mainly in Europe, everywhere else in the world, sometimes by a separate conductor.

It appears to me, having seen the Bozza buses operated both ways, that "on at the front, off at the back" is not substantially slower than open boarding, if at all. The simple expedient of both being able to happen in parallel saves time in itself.

 

[RT4038]

The Go-Ahead firms implemented a wide range of ITSO tickets despite being deregulated about 10 years ago, so why not the others? Birmingham has a near London style contactless system, so why not Manchester?

If flat fares are possible in so many towns in 2022, then they would have been possible in 2002 as it was a much less harsher time to operate buses. The existence of urban stage based fares are more to do with the fact that buses in Britain have had them for decades, i.e. including before deregulation, so it is basically tradition. Even London had stage based fares until the 90s.

Buses are single door because of tradition. Single door became the standard in the 70s so the habit was maintained. If Britain had used two door single deckers like most countries long ago then it is likely that nobody would have even thought about using single door buses.

You may well be right, but we are where we are. No point in castigating people for not taking decisions earlier - there will be reasons why these things happened (or didn't happen) which look trivial now but weren't then. Nothing to be done about that now.

 

[johncrossley]

Pardon me, ticket checks are universal on buses outside London - they are done by the driver. No ticket, no ride. In fact very similar to , aside from a small number of countries mainly in Europe, everywhere else in the world, sometimes by a separate conductor.

I meant ticket checking by roving inspectors. I thought that was implied.

 

[RT4038]

I meant ticket checking by roving inspectors. I thought that was implied.

and I am comparing with your proposed system of open boarding and random checks by ticket inspectors. Roving inspections outside London are mainly for the purpose of catching theft and other irregularities by drivers, and there are more sophisticated ways of targeting miscreants nowadays, rather than random checks.

 

[johncrossley]

and I am comparing with your proposed system of open boarding and random checks by ticket inspectors. Roving inspections outside London are mainly for the purpose of catching theft and other irregularities by drivers, and there are more sophisticated ways of targeting miscreants nowadays, rather than random checks.

I'm not really advocating open boarding. It isn't really necessary with smartcard technology and two doors. Other countries use front door boarding so it isn't quite a British "quirk".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2022 ==

You may well be right, but we are where we are. No point in castigating people for not taking decisions earlier - there will be reasons why these things happened (or didn't happen) which look trivial now but weren't then. Nothing to be done about that now.

The point is that the style of operation is at least as much to do with tradition as with financing. Boarding was a lot slower before deregulation than now, when there was vastly more public funding.

 

[The exile]

What you hit at a given set of lights (where they aren't controlled in the bus's favour) is totally random, so this would even out.

More cars getting in front would make a negative difference, though, yes.

It can never even out - the best that can happen is that the bus takes the entire red phase to load and is ready to move off just as the lights turn green. That still leaves the times where it sits there during the green phase ( maybe blocking the rest of the traffic as well) and is just ready to move off as the lights turn red.

 

[820KDV]

Before Oyster, London used to sell books of bus tickets. Other operators could have implemented something similar if they had implemented flat fares. Given that many towns now have flat fares within urban areas, it sounds hard to believe that they couldn't have done that 20 years ago.

Multi-journey tickets exist outside London and have done for many years. When I was at Western National in the early 1990s we had 9 journey tickets, issued and cancelled (so there was a more detailed record than "Pass" in the system) on Timtronic machines. Issued on a square card, the first journey was printed in the centre and validated the card, subsequent journeys were printed around the edges, two per side, and no end of trouble ensued if the driver incorrectly selected left or right and the machine over printed a box! Timtronic used fares look-up so there was no need for flat fares, and when programming the fares it could be set with different zones so, as an example, in one area you might sell 9 journeys for the price of 8, but in another for the price of 7, dependant on the availability of other tickets for that journey and what you wanted to promote. Set a fare-stage specially for a school or college and you could give them a special rate, if you wanted. Slow? Yes, fairly, especially on a busy peak hour buses where such tickets were popular, but it worked, and lots of people used them.

In the latter 1990s I used multi-journey tickets via Wayfarer 3 magnetic cards, which could be unreliable, but were well used.

And in the area I now work local authority supported services offer multi-journey tickets, originally with the paper ticket inserted into a wallet with journey numbers along the edge which would be punched to cancel them. The same approach was adopted by the major independent in the area for their commercial, and originally competitive, services. Now Ticketer prints the number strip.

None of the above are Oyster, but then, none cost anywhere near what Oyster did to implement.

 

[johncrossley]

Slow? Yes, fairly

The London bus tickets I was talking about were probably quicker than Oyster. It was a book of 6 tickets where you ripped off the hexagonal bit at the end and gave it to the driver. Super low tech. No machines required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can never even out - the best that can happen is that the bus takes the entire red phase to load and is ready to move off just as the lights turn green. That still leaves the times where it sits there during the green phase ( maybe blocking the rest of the traffic as well) and is just ready to move off as the lights turn red.

One thing used to great effect on the mainland is that stops will be placed right next to traffic lights, and the bus driver pushes a button when ready to go, which causes the lights to immediately change in the bus's favour. Oxford St would be a good place to have this.

My point above was that in a traditional setup when the lights are green is totally random (as far as the bus is concerned), and thus how long it actually spends at the stop selling tickets doesn't have an effect on whether it's likely to get stuck at a red or not - it's random either way.

 

[Non Multi]

The London bus tickets I was talking about were probably quicker than Oyster. It was a book of 6 tickets where you ripped off the hexagonal bit at the end and gave it to the driver. Super low tech. No machines required.

They were called Saver tickets.

 

[JonathanH]

The London bus tickets I was talking about were probably quicker than Oyster. It was a book of 6 tickets where you ripped off the hexagonal bit at the end and gave it to the driver. Super low tech. No machines required.

Not without fraud risk...
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...gers-reminded-to-use-up-red-bus-saver-tickets

Passengers reminded to use up red Bus Saver tickets
04 June 2007
"We have had to take this action to prevent the exploitation of passengers from ticket fraudsters."
Nick Owen
Acting Head of Bus Enforcement for Transport for London
We have had to take this action to prevent the exploitation of passengers from ticket fraudsters.

Transport for London (TfL) has today (1 June) stopped selling its old design of red Bus Saver tickets and is reminding passengers they have just one month left to use existing tickets up.

From 30 June the red Bus Saver tickets will no longer be accepted on London Buses as these tickets have been replaced by a new blue design as part of an ongoing anti-fraud operation.

It is believed that sophisticated counterfeits had penetrated at least 10 per cent of the red Bus Saver ticket circulation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not without fraud risk...
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...gers-reminded-to-use-up-red-bus-saver-tickets

Yes, there was a fair bit of falsification. I wonder if this extended to the Netherlands' long-lived and successful Strippenkaart system?

The error they made was unlimited validity (also bad for accountants, as you have a potential liability line in your company accounts that will never go away - this is why gift vouchers have an expiry date). If they'd changed them every few months, there wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

But now there's no point in having stuff like this, because "tap in, tap out" contactless.