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the 5 spare 180s. What's happening?

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northwichcat

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I thought VWC wanted to use any spare Voyagers for the proposed Birmingham New Street - Hayes & Harlington (for Heathrow) service? Or is that not going ahead?

I don't know about that service but the next WCML franchise is set to include some Pendolinos on Birmingham-London with Voyagers appearing on an enhanced Lancashire-London service, where alternative services will go to Blackpool, which isn't electrified.
 
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tbtc

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and Virgin will have 4 x new 11 car Pendolinos in storage for 18 months+. It would make sense to get those 11 car Pendolinos on to Glasgow-London now, move 4 x 9 car Pendolinos to Birmingham-Scotland services and to sublease 4 x Voyagers to either XC or TPE

I agree.

Ideal way would be to give Virgin the five 180s to provide an hourly London - Chester service (forget about Wrexham), to release all Virgin Voyagers to XC/ TPE (probably give all the five coach 221s to XC and then release four coach 220s to TPE).

Virgin gain enough DMUs to run an hourly Chester service, XC gain more five coach units, TPE gain enough 220s to replace their 170s (maybe send the nine 170s to NXEA to release their 156s to Northern/ EMT?)...

Of course, there are a number of flaws in this "cascade", especially the need to order even more 390s (to provide the additional Virgin services they are planning to use the current new 390s for), but you get the general idea...
 

MCR247

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I'm not sure you could run hourly Birmingham - Scotland with 4 390s....

But I like the rest, good idea.
 

Drsatan

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I don't know about that service but the next WCML franchise is set to include some Pendolinos on Birmingham-London with Voyagers appearing on an enhanced Lancashire-London service, where alternative services will go to Blackpool, which isn't electrified.

The Birmingham NS - Hayes service would be pretty useless since passengers would have needed to change trains at Hayes & Harlington for Heathrow anyway. I'm glad that's not going ahead.

However, when Preston - Blackpool is finally electrified, there will be no need to operate Voyagers there. Any surplus Voyagers should go to XC so their existing services can be strengthened. If XC doesn't want to use them because of their leasing costs it shows that the way of funding franchises doesn't work.
 

MCR247

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I would give Virgin enough 5 car voyagers to run London - Chester, and then give the rest to XC. I would then give Birmingham - Scotland to XC. XC would then integrate it into their network, although it unfortunately would probably be at Manchester's expense
 

Pumbaa

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I'm not sure you could run hourly Birmingham - Scotland with 4 390s....

But I like the rest, good idea.

You can't - it's allocated 7 221s, with 8 221s on the North Wales runs, including 5 throughout the day, 1 at Longsight until mid-afternoon to double up for the evening, 1 at Willesden (which is the morning service from Holyhead which joins the Wrexham portion) and 1 at Burton which runs ECS to Euston from Central Rivers, working a service from Brum FO. This swaps out a unit onto heavy maintenance at the end of the evening.

That leaves 2 at Central Rivers, 2 at Polmadie, 1 from Crewe which works the early morning service to Euston, standby at Willesden all morning, the Lancaster afternoon terminator when required and then swaps out. The second unit at Polmadie often swaps out or doubles up a Glasgow/Brum service, leaving just one or sometimes none on shed.
 

tbtc

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I would give Virgin enough 5 car voyagers to run London - Chester

It's really not far from Crewe to Chester - electrifying this section would free up five Voyagers (based on an hourly service of two hours and a couple of minutes) plus one ATW DMU. I'd have this as a priority to electrify

(you'd still need a 57 to haul a token service to Holyhead, but this used to be just one a day IIRC)
 

Pumbaa

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It's really not far from Crewe to Chester - electrifying this section would free up five Voyagers (based on an hourly service of two hours and a couple of minutes) plus one ATW DMU. I'd have this as a priority to electrify

(you'd still need a 57 to haul a token service to Holyhead, but this used to be just one a day IIRC)

To me, that would be a priority over Blackpool electrification. Personally I'd also then electrify the N Wales coast and the various smaller lines and curves to give N Wales to Liverpool/Manchester via Runcorn and South Parkway an hourly electric service, releasing half of the 175s to cascade 158s/153s as necessary elesewhere. Thus North Wales doesn't lose London links (they're well patronised) and has a good service enhancement.
 

tbtc

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To me, that would be a priority over Blackpool electrification. Personally I'd also then electrify the N Wales coast and the various smaller lines and curves to give N Wales to Liverpool/Manchester via Runcorn and South Parkway an hourly electric service, releasing half of the 175s to cascade 158s/153s as necessary elesewhere. Thus North Wales doesn't lose London links (they're well patronised) and has a good service enhancement.

If Manchester - Earlestown is wired (as part of the route to Liverpool) the that'd free up a lot of 158/175s, as you say, which would provide some well needed extra units (I don't think the Blaenau route would justify wiring though).

Cut the Cardiff - Holyhead and Birmingham - Holyhead services back to Chester, and you have a half hourly EMU from Chester to Llandudno Junction, brilliant. Plus scope for direct services from the Wirral to the WCML...
 

TheWalrus

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It's really not far from Crewe to Chester - electrifying this section would free up five Voyagers (based on an hourly service of two hours and a couple of minutes) plus one ATW DMU. I'd have this as a priority to electrify

(you'd still need a 57 to haul a token service to Holyhead, but this used to be just one a day IIRC)
Totally agree! Its 21 miles. I would run 2 hourly extensions to Holyhead, but how many 57s would be needed?
 

tbtc

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Totally agree! Its 21 miles. I would run 2 hourly extensions to Holyhead, but how many 57s would be needed?

If the wires stopped at Chester and there was a bi-hourly extension to Holyhead then it'd be about two hours each way beyond Chester, so you'd need at least a couple of 57s, probably three. Could tie it into the WAG service (which obviously works to/from Holyhead)
 

TheWalrus

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If the wires stopped at Chester and there was a bi-hourly extension to Holyhead then it'd be about two hours each way beyond Chester, so you'd need at least a couple of 57s, probably three. Could tie it into the WAG service (which obviously works to/from Holyhead)

Now theres an idea ;)
 

TomJ93

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If I had the power to control all of this, firstly i'd give Virgin the WCML franchise until 2020 with a possible extension if they meet a set criteria (on time, customer satisfaction etc). Aslong as they agreed to pay out of their own pockets to make sure every 390 has 11 cars and ever super has 7 including the recently shortened one.

Then (this is all hypothetical, i've not taken account any other factors, and I have multiplied the amount of services by 3, so a service with 2 tph would have 2 leaving each station, and two in transit requiring 6 every hour)

The London to Birmingham New Street would be every 15 minutes providing 4tph, 2 of these would continue to Wolverhampton.

London to Manchester would also recieve 4tph.

London to Liverpool 3tph

London to Glasgow 2tbh with one extended to Edinburgh

Birmingham to Glasgow 1tph and would coincide with the arrival of the Edinburgh train to allow B'ham passengers to join the service.

London to Chester 2tph with oe extension to Holyhead every other hour. No trains would run to Wrexham. Both of these trains would be the newly lengthened Super Voyagers, and if possible one of these would be an extension to the Birmingham train providing the West Midlands with new destinations.

London to Blackpool would be a Super Voyager service with 1tph.

10 Super Voyagers can be transferred to XC and these will not be lengthened as Arrivia should lengthen their entire fleet out of their own pockets.

(If anyone knows a better way of working out how many trains are needed please tell me, thanks!)
 

tinselworm

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could do with some more trains on the bristol-taunton area, last year there were so few trains that they were running a class 67 service with 4 MKIIs as there were no more DMU's!
 

Aictos

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All well and good cascading left right and centre but Virgin Rail, First Group, Stagecoach etc...need more space with respect to ordering trains ie Virgin stated they wanted to buy x amount of coaches at no risk to the taxpayer so why not take the chance and let them go ahead.

If Virgin were able to order more and longer 390s then it might lead to their diesel fleet being surplus which could set the ball rolling so everyone's a winner including the now Cinderella of the rail network: Northern!
 

northwichcat

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a token service to Holyhead, but this used to be just one a day IIRC

Pre-December 08 it used to be 5tpd between Holyhead and London with none starting and terminating at Chester and they were all booked to be 390s, which got transferred to run the additional Manchester-London via Wilmslow services. I've listed the current level of service below.

Services to Holyhead/Bangor from London:
08:10 Euston-Bangor
09:10 Euston-Holyhead
16:10 Euston-Bangor
17:10 Euston-Holyhead
18:10 Euston-Holyhead
19:10 Euston-Holyhead

Most of the above leave Euston as a pair of Voyagers, splitting at Chester with one portion continuing to Wales and the other portion forming the next Chester-London service.

Services to London from Holyhead/Bangor:
04:50 Holyhead-London
05:51 Holyhead-London
06:55 Holyhead-London
08:55 Holyhead-London
12:24 Bangor-London
13:58 Holyhead-London
20:20 Bangor-London

Virgin also run a 20:10 Holyhead-Chester service if you're wondering how they can have five services to Holyhead and only four from Holyhead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I had the power to control all of this, firstly i'd give Virgin the WCML franchise until 2020 with a possible extension if they meet a set criteria (on time, customer satisfaction etc). Aslong as they agreed to pay out of their own pockets to make sure every 390 has 11 cars and ever super has 7 including the recently shortened one.

Then (this is all hypothetical, i've not taken account any other factors, and I have multiplied the amount of services by 3, so a service with 2 tph would have 2 leaving each station, and two in transit requiring 6 every hour)

The London to Birmingham New Street would be every 15 minutes providing 4tph, 2 of these would continue to Wolverhampton.

London to Manchester would also recieve 4tph.

London to Liverpool 3tph

London to Glasgow 2tbh with one extended to Edinburgh

Birmingham to Glasgow 1tph and would coincide with the arrival of the Edinburgh train to allow B'ham passengers to join the service.

London to Chester 2tph with oe extension to Holyhead every other hour. No trains would run to Wrexham. Both of these trains would be the newly lengthened Super Voyagers, and if possible one of these would be an extension to the Birmingham train providing the West Midlands with new destinations.

London to Blackpool would be a Super Voyager service with 1tph.

10 Super Voyagers can be transferred to XC and these will not be lengthened as Arrivia should lengthen their entire fleet out of their own pockets.

(If anyone knows a better way of working out how many trains are needed please tell me, thanks!)

One major problem with your plan is a lack of paths. Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly is at full capacity at peak times, while Acton Bridge-Winsford is double track and has to take all Liverpool/Preston/Scotland to Birmingham and London services so 3tph between Liverpool and London, as well as enhanced North West and Scotland services is really out of the question. I imagine there would be West Midlands pathing problems as well.

You're also proposing increases in capacity on some routes which are well above what is needed. Instead of the current 9 carriages per hour between Liverpool and London you're proposing 33, while 44 would be excessive for Manchester to London. If you asked people in Manchester and Liverpool where they'd most like 35 extra carriages to go very few people would say London services, most would say Liverpool-Norwich, North TPE, South TPE, Manchester-Scotland, Manchester-Blackpool and local stoppers.
 
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YorkshireBear

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would it be that difficult to order another 15 11 car pendlinos

15 is alot but i mean any number
 

Aictos

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Everything is possible, as long as you want to spend money on it.

Also depends on the DfT etc...would they be happy if a TOC said they wanted to spend their own money on longer or more trains not likely seeing as the DFT weren't too chuffed with First buying some power cars and coaches outright.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for investment but I don't see why the DfT has to micro manage so much when it ought to set some basic requirements of what is required and leave it at that.

Why have any 9 car 390s left, surely for maintenance purposes it would be better to order enough 390s to be in a position to cascade 220s/221s but also by ensuring they're all the same length making it easier for diagramming.

Yes I know some stations won't be able to take 11 car 390s which is where SDO comes into play.
 

tbtc

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would it be that difficult to order another 15 11 car pendlinos

15 is alot but i mean any number

If we want to do it, we should do it whilst the production lines are able to continue production (rather than have to start from scratch again). Strike whilst the iron is hot!
 

Aictos

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If we want to do it, we should do it whilst the production lines are able to continue production (rather than have to start from scratch again). Strike whilst the iron is hot!

I quite agree and we should learn from our past mistakes such as not going for a 4th coach for the 185s etc...
 

tbtc

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I quite agree and we should learn from our past mistakes such as not going for a 4th coach for the 185s etc...

At a pinch I can defend ordering three-coach 185s and four-coach Voyagers, but I definitely can't defend the failure to order additional coaches to build on the increased passenger numbers.

Whilst it's probably naive to ask for all new stock to be extra-long, we need to ensure that there is scope for additional coaches to be added later.

To go back to the original point, if the production line for 180s had been kept open we might see more 180s and longer 180s built (with lessons learnt from the problems with the initial units, maybe a subclass of 180/1s?)
 

NXEA!

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Just an idea, couldn't Virgin order a fleet of 'mini' Pendolinos? For instance, order 20 5/6 car sets to displace the Voyagers on Birmingham-Scotland and Euston-Chester/Wrexham/Holyhead services, with 57's hauling the diesel legs, which would make use of this underused fleet. These Voyagers could then move to XC, with possibly some left over 220's moving onto Nottingham-Cardiff services displacing around (not sure of the amount of diagrams) hopefully) ten 170's to NXEA to displace the 156's to Northern/EMT. Also I'd tag an order of about 5-10 sets onto this original 20, and use these sets to make Manchester-Edinburgh/Glasgow a Virgin (or whoever wins the franchise) route once the North-West lines are wired up which are utilised for this service, thus freeing up how ever many sets used by TPE to double up and strengthen their existing services. I realise there's probably many flaws with my plan as I don't know exact diagram numbers, and NXEA would be left with a tiny fleet of 5 153's, but like I said, just an idea. :lol:
 

MCR247

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Money, and they wouldn't get a return on the investment considering they'd probably never even see the new stock....

That's why, if say the next franchise was 30 years long, and the TOC had inadequate stock, they could buy some themselves, and make a return
 

danfitz123

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FGW is the wrong place for them in my opinion. I think they should go to ATW on the Manchester-Milford Haven services. That would speed the service up a bit.

1 post to go till 100 :)
 
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