When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Curious difference between the visual and the audible. The words scrolling up the screen say ‘murderers pay for their crimes’, but he sings ‘murderers die for their crimes’.

Our folk group always sang " die for their crimes" which is apt to the next line "....even if we get it wrong sometimes"

 

[Strathclyder]

Next week: "Nobody told me blackmailing was not allowed"

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he - or one of his minions - actually came out with something like this in another attempt to save his hide. It'd be utterly pathetic if it wasn't so contemptible.

 

[MattRat]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he - or one of his minions - actually came out with something like this in another attempt to save his hide. It'd be utterly pathetic if it wasn't so contemptible.

There has been a surprising amount of 'mask off' moments from politicians around the world. They aren't even good at being 'politicians' anymore.....

 

[Strathclyder]

There has been a surprising amount of 'mask off' moments from politicians around the world. They aren't even good at being 'politicians' anymore.....

Aye, but I'd argue that most of them weren't that good at even pretending to be 'politicians' to begin with, Johnson is merely the most notorious example - at least in British politics - of this.

Actually one of the main routes to dictatorship is through populism. Look at Putin, Erdogan, Trump ... Johnson isn't as far down the path but he shows some sign of following.

I've always thought of Johnson as being the embodiement of the phrase: 'Trump, but what if he'd swallowed a 15th century dictionary'. His lack of scruples, self-awareness and morality are consistent with Trump obviously, it's just not quite as overt as the latter's brand of such odious qualities - with 45, they're about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the jaw - and are just as dangerous, if not more so.

To cap the above off, Johnson does often have the look - as a by-product of his 'delibrately looking like he's been dragged backwards through a hedge' distraction tactic - of a 3rd-rate Trump impersonator you'd find in Times Square.

Barring Trump, Erdogan is the best example of this trope in action, not to mention one of the most infuriatingly smug and self-satisfied.

 

[ainsworth74]

The discussion about the death penalty can now be found in it's own thread here.

 

[edwin_m]

Aye, but I'd argue that most of them weren't that good at even pretending to be 'politicians' to begin with, Johnson is merely the most notorious example - at least in British politics - of this.


I've always thought of Johnson as being the embodiement of the phrase: 'Trump, but what if he'd swallowed a 15th century dictionary'. The lack of scruples, self-awareness and morality are consistent with Trump obviously, it's just not quite as overt as latter's brand of such odious qualities - with him, they're about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the jaw - and are just as dangerous, if not more so.

To cap the above off, Johnson does often have the look (deliberately of course) of a 3rd-rate Trump impersonator you'd find in Times Square.

"They call him Britain Trump" - D Trump.

At least Johnson isn't a climate or vaccine denier. We have to be thankful for small mercies.

 

[MattRat]

Actually one of the main routes to dictatorship is through populism. Look at Putin, Erdogan, Trump ... Johnson isn't as far down the path but he shows some sign of following.

Putin isn't actual popular though, he just makes people think he's popular. And Biden was more popular than Trump, at least during the 2020 election. Does that also make him populist?

 

[Strathclyder]

"They call him Britain Trump" - D Trump.

At least Johnson isn't a climate or vaccine denier. We have to be thankful for small mercies.

Trump with one of his fleetingly rare cognizant observations there, he said begrudgingly.

Yeah, but even with those small mercies, it goes without saying that they do little to quell the raging tyre fire that is every other aspect of him and his premiership.

 

[The Ham]

Whilst there's a lot of fairly loyal Tories out there, the same could have been said about Labour and the Lib Dems. In the last decade they've all done stuff to significantly upset those other than their very core voters. Which I believe means that there's likely to be a lot of people who find themselves alienated from who they thought that they should vote for.

We've seen this in the Southwest going from yellow/orange to blue and likewise the former red wall seats going red to blue.

Whilst there's likely to still be anger over tuition fees for the Lib Dems, I suspect that this has reduced recently and so they have the potential to draw a lot of conservative voters to them due to the current upset with the Tories.

However I suspect that is there was an alternative fairly central party, maybe slightly left leaning, without the current baggage of the current political parties then they could do fairly well.

Whilst the Green Party could fit that description, and with a significant growing support for all things environmental, I'm not sure that they are likely to have the mass appeal yet. Mostly due to them only having one MP, so they would currently be seen as a bit of a protest vote. Of course the Lib Dems could have a similar argument placed at their door, however at least with them they have in the recent past had a half decent number of MP's.

The May local elections, where people are much more likely to "risk" voting for someone else are likely to be interesting. In that there'll be a lot of people wishing to show Boris their upset at the Parties (although there's been a level of upset about various things which have been kept back, as we were in a Pandemic, which is making the current anger worse).

For instance the issues over PPE contacts, the redecoration of the PM's flat and how that was paid for, the rolling back of the £20/week, the miss handling of Barnard Castle (which many will now put down to that none at the top seeing how toxic that was, as the perception is that those with money were all doing it - for example a lot of second homes in Cornwall were in use) and so on; I'm sure that there's plenty of other things which others could add to that list.

Boris' "I'm sorry you feel that way, "I'm sorry I was caught", or whatever other non apology he's said is likely to have only added to that upset. If he does what many see as the right thing once the Sue Grey report is produced, then the Tories could have a chance at staying in power. The problem is, what does that right thing to do look like?

Many want him out, however if that's all that happens then there's still going to be the issue of the thinking "yes he's gone, but what about others and the civil servants who must have been involved?".

Late in 2020, when working in an office was allowed, we had a work social with drinks and snacks. However we'd all gone home after work and had that "party" using online meeting software. I suspect that wasn't unique, and so to then see number 10 having an in person party is likely to be more upsetting than number 10 can understand.

Likewise at the time of the parties, my wife's work (due to being science based involving lab work, so there were often everyone fora meeting in work buildings) had all their meetings online, even when it was just a few of them. They would all have to find their own office space and then have a meeting.

Again not likely to be unique, that's before you consider the impact on children, people's mental health (personally both being on furlough and WFH for prolonged periods of time have caused me issues, which I've dealt with as they were fairly low level), or the many other sacrifices people have made at the request of the government. To then see that they've made far fewer and then not confess when they've had chance to (compare number 10 to the department for education, who just apologised when this all started out), then that's going going to be hard for them to resolve.

 

[edwin_m]

Putin isn't actual popular though, he just makes people think he's popular. And Biden was more popular than Trump, at least during the 2020 election. Does that also make him populist?

The playbook is to espouse popular policies to achieve power, then dismantle the checks and balances on the basis that they are thwarting the "will of the people", then start manipulating the levers of power. Freudian slip, nearly typed "Leavers" there...

I'd define a populist as someone who seeks to gain power by offering policies that are purely for that purpose and actively against the better interests of the country.

However I suspect that is there was an alternative fairly central party, maybe slightly left leaning, without the current baggage of the current political parties then they could do fairly well.

The SDP in the 1980s and Change UK more recently would seem to contradict that. Our voting system moreorless ensures there can only be two major parties and leaves both of them open to capture by the extremes.

 

[Kez]

The playbook is to espouse popular policies to achieve power, then dismantle the checks and balances on the basis that they are thwarting the "will of the people", then start manipulating the levers of power. Freudian slip, nearly typed "Leavers" there...

I'd define a populist as someone who seeks to gain power by offering policies that are purely for that purpose and actively against the better interests of the country.

A better treatise is given in the book National Populism by Eatwell and Goodwin. An important element to populism is that you appeal to people's belief they are not being heard and their lives are being controlled by distant elites. For Johnson, this was playing on the EU elite - as was the Brexit vote itself. (The irony being that Johnson is from the most untouchable and unlistening elite, namely that of the unelected, privately-educated, privileged British aristocratic ruling classes).

Biden made no such pleas to the 'unlistened to' and didn't evoke the idea of a distant elite and so, no, he is not a populist. You might take a look at Nicky Sturgeon though to judge whether she is.

 

[nw1]

A better treatise is given in the book National Populism by Eatwell and Goodwin. An important element to populism is that you appeal to people's belief they are not being heard and their lives are being controlled by distant elites. For Johnson, this was playing on the EU elite - as was the Brexit vote itself. (The irony being that Johnson is from the most untouchable and unlistening elite, namely that of the unelected, privately-educated, privileged British aristocratic ruling classes).

Biden made no such pleas to the 'unlistened to' and didn't evoke the idea of a distant elite and so, no, he is not a populist. You might take a look at Nicky Sturgeon though to judge whether she is.

And of course, some of us believe that under Johnson and the Tories that we are not being heard, are being governed by a small clique (will use that word rather than the more emotive "elite"), and feel deeply resentful as a result. They're only "populist" when it suits them; they only listen to "the people" when a particular subset of "the people" give them what they want, or they can exploit the fears of a subsection of "the people" to get power.

The section of "the people" who will not further their interests will be ignored at best, and ridiculed at worst.

 

[MattRat]

Biden made no such pleas to the 'unlistened to' and didn't evoke the idea of a distant elite and so, no, he is not a populist. You might take a look at Nicky Sturgeon though to judge whether she is.

My point was, populism has been warped to mean whatever someone wants it to be, not what it actually is. People can be bad without being populist.

In fact, SNP is another similar case as an example. Scottish NATIONAL Party. Remind you of anything? And yet, are they anything like what someone might associate them with?

 

[brad465]

Looks like the press/whoever wants to remove Johnson has moved onto an allegation of Islamophobia, with an ex-Minister saying they were sacked in 2020 because they're a Muslim:

Nusrat Ghani: I was sacked as a minister ‘because I was a Muslim’

A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith

www.thetimes.co.uk

(Apologies for no text copy as I'm on my phone)

This looks very concerning, and worth recalling Baroness Warsi was trying to call on the Tory party to stamp out Islamophobia, but the investigation seems to have gone quiet.

 

[MattRat]

Looks like the press/whoever wants to remove Johnson has moved onto an allegation of Islamophobia, with an ex-Minister saying they were sacked in 2020 because they're a Muslim:

Nusrat Ghani: I was sacked as a minister ‘because I was a Muslim’

A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith

www.thetimes.co.uk

(Apologies for no text copy as I'm on my phone)

This looks very concerning, and worth recalling Baroness Warsi was trying to call on the Tory party to stamp out Islamophobia, but the investigation seems to have gone quiet.

The irony being, some people might turn around and support Johnson again becuase of her. You know the type....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looks like the press/whoever wants to remove Johnson has moved onto an allegation of Islamophobia, with an ex-Minister saying they were sacked in 2020 because they're a Muslim:

Nusrat Ghani: I was sacked as a minister ‘because I was a Muslim’

A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith

www.thetimes.co.uk

(Apologies for no text copy as I'm on my phone)

This looks very concerning, and worth recalling Baroness Warsi was trying to call on the Tory party to stamp out Islamophobia, but the investigation seems to have gone quiet.

Would it not have better to have waited in posting this, as you could also have had the response from the whip concerned who confirmed that he was the whip involved and has denied the accusation.

 

[edwin_m]

Would it not have better to have waited in posting this, as you could also have had the response from the whip concerned who confirmed that he was the whip involved and has denied the accusation.

Here's the BBC version which includes both items and isn't paywalled: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60100525

According to the Sunday Times, Tory Nusrat Ghani says when she asked for an explanation it was stated her "Muslimness was raised as an issue".
Conservative Chief Whip Mark Spencer said Ms Ghani was referring to him and added her claims were completely false and he considered them defamatory.

It is of course possible that another whip also spoke to Ms Ghani and said something different.

 

[brad465]

Would it not have better to have waited in posting this, as you could also have had the response from the whip concerned who confirmed that he was the whip involved and has denied the accusation.

I was not expecting said whip to reveal themselves, or at least not as quickly as they did. Also interesting the whip not only denied it, but accused the ex-minister of defamatory, which doesn't make sense but the latter did not say any name at all.

 

[Busaholic]

Here's the BBC version which includes both items and isn't paywalled: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60100525

It is of course possible that another whip also spoke to Ms Ghani and said something different.

Here's the BBC version which includes both items and isn't paywalled: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60100525

It is of course possible that another whip also spoke to Ms Ghani and said something different.

Any barrister worth their salt would demolish Mark Spencer's statement in seconds. He is saying he recognises himself from Nusrat Ghani's comments even though he denies making those comments so is unrecognisable!! Keep digging, Mr Spencer, you prize idiot.

 

[DelayRepay]

Any barrister worth their salt would demolish Mark Spencer's statement in seconds. He is saying he recognises himself from Nusrat Ghani's comments even though he denies making those comments so is unrecognisable!! Keep digging, Mr Spencer, you prize idiot.

'Nobody told me Islamophobia was against the rules'

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course there's been talk about Tory Islamaphobia for years which resulted in what many people saw as a whitewashed report being released last year. So the fact more things have now come out really isn't a suprise. The real question is why wasn't the same attention and and media coverage that was put onto the Labour antisemitism issue put onto this too?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

'Nobody told me Islamophobia was against the rules'

When postings of this type are made, they usually are a parody of what assumed Johnson might say, even when he was not the person but a whip in the recent instance, so has this style of phrase now entered the English Language as standard usage in style?

Another similar example would be "Nobody told me antisemitism was against the rules".

 

[GC class B1]

When postings of this type are made, they usually are a parody of what assumed Johnson might say, even when he was not the person but a whip in the recent instance, so has this style of phrase now entered the English Language as standard usage in style?

Another similar example would be "Nobody told me antisemitism was against the rules".

Two points.
1. Boris Johnson is in charge of the Tory Whips
2. The Labour Party have tackled Antisemitism vigourously.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

2. The Labour Party have tackled Antisemitism vigourously.

That is just a personally-believed and held view of yours and the matter of Antisemitism in the Labour Party was not a matter that you describe over the last three decades, otherwise it would not have been a source of debate when Corbyn was party leader.

 

[GC class B1]

That is just a personally-believed and held view of yours and the matter of Antisemitism in the Labour Party was not a matter that you describe over the last three decades, otherwise it would not have been a source of debate when Corbyn was party leader.

Keir Starmer has tackled antisemitism and if I remembered correctly Jeremy Corbyn’s expulsion from the Labour Party was related to the report into Antisemitism.
I don’t understand your comment about me describing something over the last three decades. I didn’t describe anything.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Keir Starmer has tackled antisemitism and if I remembered correctly Jeremy Corning’s expulsion from the Labour Party was related to the report into Antisemitism.
I don’t understand your comment about me describing something over the last three decades. I didn’t describe anything.

Why have you brought a third party called Jeremy Corning into this discussion. Who is this person?

 

[bspahh]

Nusrat Ghani has posted this statement

STATEMENT

When I told the Prime Minister in June 2020 what had been said to me in the Government Whip's Office I urged him to take it seriously as a Government matter and instigate an inquiry. He wrote to me that he could not get involved and suggested I use the internal Conservative Party complaint process. This, as I had already pointed out, was very clearly not appropriate for something that happened on Government business - I do not even know if the words that were conveyed to me about what was said in reshuffle meetings at Downing Street were by members of the Conservative Party.

Not a day has gone by without thinking about what I was told and wondering why I was in politics, while hoping for the Government to take this seriously. Those that have not had their identity and faith questioned cannot full appreciate what it does to you. Now is not the time I would have chosen for this to come out and I have pursued every avenue and process I thought available to me, but many people have known what happened.

In my statement yesterday I was careful not to mention any names or implicate the Prime Minister. All I have wanted was for his Government to take this seriously, investigate properly and ensure no other colleague has to endure this.

I have many things that I want to achieve in politics, not least my campaigns on human rights and genocide, and I am deeply disappointed that it has come to this.

- NUSRAT GHANI MP -

 

[Busaholic]

Nusrat Ghani has posted this statement

Spencer and Johnson have a considerable foe (for this is what they've made her) there. This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back: please don't infer any disrespect in my using the word 'straw', because I have immense respect for her courage in speaking out.

 

[Typhoon]

Spencer and Johnson have a considerable foe (for this is what they've made her) there. This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back: please don't infer any disrespect in my using the word 'straw', because I have immense respect for her courage in speaking out.

I agree, I could understand if she had pushed her faith but she hasn't. I know she has spoken out about the Uyghur people (who are mostly Muslim) but their treatment is more to do with human rights and I can't see anyone in parliament defending it (although some in the government may want to keep it quiet). Caroline Nokes, on Broadcasting House (R4) and quoted in the Evening Standard online, has spoken in support (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...-caroline-nokes-emily-thornberry-b978271.html)

“And to be quite frank I’m horrified at it, because both Nus and I have sought to be good, hard-working Conservative MPs for our entire parliamentary career and to be talked about in that way, it’s horrific.”

In the same article a tweet from Steve Baker is included

That Nus could be treated like this is completely intolerable.

I value @Nus_Ghani as a great colleague and I'm appalled. We must get to the bottom of it.

Both of these are forceful, independently minded politicians who will have no difficulty at all in taking this further until it is resolved. Spencer may find that he is surplus to requirements because this will not go away easily.

Edit: Since I wrote this I have seen supporting tweets from Tom Tugendhat and former Chief Whip, Mark Harper - both MPs of standing. The commentator. Ian Dale has asked other Conservative MPs to do the same. Yje pressure is building.

 

[dgl]

And Michael Fabricant (the one that looks like a parody of himself) has been on LBC and basically said that what Nusrat has said can't be true as she does not look like a stereotypical Muslim, yes because racism is always because of how someone looks