Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[seagull]

Petrol get home, go indoors, wake up, drive off. No delay, time wasted having to plug in, unplug.

When out, pull up to pump, fill up, pay at pump with card, leave.

Hmm, I know what is easier here!

(Ok, ok, I'm pulling your leg a bit, but just playing devil's advocate on this pro-EV thread too for fun)

Some interesting posts in recent days/weeks. I'm actually inclined to think that purely on cost grounds, none of us will ultimately save a penny going electric, as the government will get their pound of flesh one way or the other. But once I take the plunge I would like to think I'll be doing it partly as "my bit" to help our environment and reduce pollution, so a better result even if the costs stay the same.

Of course the debate about the environmental costs of producing electric vehicles is ongoing too - we may solve one problem and create another, but that's life and always has been the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At a petrol station you don't have to have the cuppa.

On a long drive, you should be taking a good break at least once, which is plenty of time for a cuppa. If you're not presently taking decent breaks on long trips, well, that's a side-benefit of EVs to make you do so.

On a short drive, you won't need to charge. For pootling around town, just plugging in each time you go to the supermarket, gym or whatever would be plenty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2022 ==

Some interesting posts in recent days/weeks. I'm actually inclined to think that purely on cost grounds, none of us will ultimately save a penny going electric, as the government will get their pound of flesh one way or the other. But once I take the plunge I would like to think I'll be doing it partly as "my bit" to help our environment and reduce pollution, so a better result even if the costs stay the same.

Agreed. Even if they are more expensive, we should still switch. Heat pumps are more expensive than gas boilers (though will get cheaper over time, just like EVs).

 

[Starmill]

(Ok, ok, I'm pulling your leg a bit, but just playing devil's advocate on this pro-EV thread too for fun)

It's not an unequivocally pro-EV thread it's worth clarifying.

The view that EVs are very nearly as much of a problem as other vehicles is also somewhat represented. Essentially EVs are there to solve only the tailpipe emissions.

Policy should be designed to get people to give up their cars completely where their lifestyles are already in line with, or close to, a car club only or completely car free one. EVs are a solution for the rest of the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Policy should be designed to get people to give up their cars completely where their lifestyles are already in line with, or close to, a car club only or completely car free one. EVs are a solution for the rest of the country.

Cars cause most harm in urban areas (both through ownership in areas without off street parking and through use). This is why I am tending against general road pricing to replace fuel duty, and towards urban congestion charging and parking space taxation, as this puts the charge on the most harmful car use. You might also consider a motorway toll as worthwhile to encourage long journeys onto rail.

 

[ashkeba]

Instavolt covers fast food places and Gridserve motorway services and MFG are contactless
Podpoint via an app for Tesco, co-op and many other car parks
Shell is via a RFID that you can also register for Geniepoint chargers at Morrisons

Avoid BP and old Ecotricity chargers

And does the contactless cost the same?

That is what I really wanted to know, more than a load of insults about my months-old smartphone being too old and suggestions that it should somehow be immune to badly-written apps.

 

[jon0844]

I did explain that there aren't really badly written apps like there used to be. Don't confuse that with crappy user interfaces (many car parking apps are shocking) but they aren't battery killers or crashing phones.

 

[Shrop]

So far as I can work out, I pay around 6p per kWh overnight at home, but around 22p if I need to use daytime electricity. My PHEV takes 11kWh from empty, ie 66p, which provides 22 miles, or 3p per mile. This changes to around 10p per mile if I charge the car during using daytime electric rates, which is actually not all that much less than the cost of petrol, which for my car is around 14p per mile.
The installation of apps, which I understand from some people in this thread should be easy, is one thing, as is having to hang around during the charging process, but my question here is what might I actually expect to pay at charging stations whilst I'm away from home?

 

[JohnMcL7]

That's only really a concern on the Apple side, where for reasons I don't understand, they insist upon every installed app appearing on the homepage. With Android it's perfectly possible to install apps and have them wait out of the way, never actually appearing until you actually go looking for them.


I have just purchased a second-hand Galaxy S9 in very good condition for slightly over £100. Literally an eighth of what Samsung would have wanted for it new. eBay had no shortage of Android flagships of the same age priced similarly, while iPhones were a little more expensive but still well under £200.

As for the device itself, it takes anything I can throw at it. I'm not sure what advantage I would have gained from buying a brand new phone for the same price as the second-hand one. It was as a choice between the S9 and something newer but at the low end, such as a Nokia, Samsung A-series or maybe one of the Chinese manufacturers. The only discernible disadvantage of an older phone compared to a new one seems to be the battery having degraded somewhat, but even if I used it intensively for a day I think I'd still have enough charge left to get away with travelling home on an e-ticket (or, in this case, activating an EV charging point)

I assume the people who are selling these are upgrading to new flagships, but I struggle to understand what the point of them is (other than to provide a good stream of second-hand ones a few years later!) as even my old Moto G pretty much did everything that was needed of it without ever slowing down; the only reason I replaced it was because it was physically damaged.

Batteries are a gamble on older phones, I've seen some that can last a while and others that don't last long at all and on most phones it's difficult to replace the battery so that's one factor.

Like anything in life it's diminishing returns for the more you spend but also with pretty anything in life, some people like to spend more for devices they like. I did actually upgrade from a Note 9 (much the same as the S9) to a Galaxy Fold 2 (although paid well below half price for a brand new one) and it's a significant update, the obvious advantage is the massive internal screen which remains a comfortable size to use unlike a more hefty tablet and I find it fantastic making the Note 9 feel cramped. Beyond the large screen though it has noticeable improvements in the screen itself with the 120Hz refresh and better colour plus the cameras are better individually and offer an ultra wide. While I do have a lot of high end camera equipment I still find the cameras on the phone very useful.

I use the phone heavily daily so it's well worth spending the money to get one that works much better for my use and since we're on the topic of electric cars, it certainly wouldn't be worth me spending huge amounts of money to purchase a newer car. to replace my ten year old one Range anxiety is well down the list of reasons why I'm not considering an electric car, the almost complete lack of estates and purchase prices are much higher up the list. However in ten years or so when I'm likely to be replacing my next car I'm sure the choice will be much better and an electric car may then be a consideration. The bike handles most of my transport needs it's significantly better than an electric car for the job.

 

[reddragon]

And does the contactless cost the same?

That is what I really wanted to know, more than a load of insults about my months-old smartphone being too old and suggestions that it should somehow be immune to badly-written apps.

They all price the same whatever method you use, its BP Pulse that has huge price differentials and the worst reliability / customer service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

So far as I can work out, I pay around 6p per kWh overnight at home, but around 22p if I need to use daytime electricity. My PHEV takes 11kWh from empty, ie 66p, which provides 22 miles, or 3p per mile. This changes to around 10p per mile if I charge the car during using daytime electric rates, which is actually not all that much less than the cost of petrol, which for my car is around 14p per mile.
The installation of apps, which I understand from some people in this thread should be easy, is one thing, as is having to hang around during the charging process, but my question here is what might I actually expect to pay at charging stations whilst I'm away from home?

With a combo of Octopus Go and solar I pay 1p per mile

 

[Shrop]

Cars cause most harm in urban areas (both through ownership in areas without off street parking and through use). This is why I am tending against general road pricing to replace fuel duty, and towards urban congestion charging and parking space taxation, as this puts the charge on the most harmful car use. You might also consider a motorway toll as worthwhile to encourage long journeys onto rail.

Ha ha, next you'll be suggesting the our Government actually thinks seriously about charging cars for the damage they do! I would agree with you that charging for harmful car use would be a good thing, but as a country I don't think we have the ability, nor the will, to do it meaningfully or fairly. There will never be agreement on fairness about paying to drive, politicians will always see getting involved in private car travel as a potential vote loser and something only to be done when they're really forced into it, and even then they just tinker at the edges, often getting it wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ha ha, next you'll be suggesting the our Government actually thinks seriously about charging cars for the damage they do! I would agree with you that charging for harmful car use would be a good thing, but as a country I don't think we have the ability, nor the will, to do it meaningfully or fairly. There will never be agreement on fairness about paying to drive, politicians will always see getting involved in private car travel as a potential vote loser and something only to be done when they're really forced into it, and even then they just tinker at the edges, often getting it wrong.

They are forced into it - the loss of tax revenue from the EV switch will be in the billions if they don't do it, and people won't accept that sort of income tax hit.

 

[Shrop]

They are forced into it - the loss of tax revenue from the EV switch will be in the billions if they don't do it, and people won't accept that sort of income tax hit.

That's my point though, when they're forced into it they get it seriously wrong. One example is the crazy way that cycle routes are provided in order to tick an environmental concern box, eg. on shared use footways where cyclists have to give way to every private driveway. The result is that any cyclist other than one being escorted by a parent, simply carries on using the road along with other vehicles. Another example is the widespread encouragement of diesel cars a few years ago, shortly before saying they'll be phased out altogether. I do wonder what will happen when they realise that EV batteries actually involve a lot of producing and ultimately disposal, there's much more to it than just having a nice pollution free vehicle whilst it's in use, and of course electricity charges are about to rocket too. Meanwhile, how many TV and other adverts do you see telling you that walking and cycling are good for your health, and for your finances, in comparison with how many you see promoting cars?

 

[Meerkat]

On a long drive, you should be taking a good break at least once, which is plenty of time for a cuppa. If you're not presently taking decent breaks on long trips, well, that's a side-benefit of EVs to make you do so.

On a short drive, you won't need to charge. For pootling around town, just plugging in each time you go to the supermarket, gym or whatever would be plenty.

I don't want to sit around in a service station (nor have the stress of hoping the service station has a charger free). And it isn't relevant for a 2 or 3 hour journey each way to a destination with no chargers.

So now you have to find a charger and muck about with apps every time you stop! Its clearly more inconvenient than having a petrol car (which if you just do local trips you might only fill up once every two or three weeks so can pick the most convenient time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't want to sit around in a service station (nor have the stress of hoping the service station has a charger free). And it isn't relevant for a 2 or 3 hour journey each way to a destination with no chargers.

So now you have to find a charger and muck about with apps every time you stop! Its clearly more inconvenient than having a petrol car (which if you just do local trips you might only fill up once every two or three weeks so can pick the most convenient time.

If you only do local trips you'll only need to charge an EV once a week. If you have off road parking, you'd just do that at home.

 

[reddragon]

I don't want to sit around in a service station (nor have the stress of hoping the service station has a charger free). And it isn't relevant for a 2 or 3 hour journey each way to a destination with no chargers.

So now you have to find a charger and muck about with apps every time you stop! Its clearly more inconvenient than having a petrol car (which if you just do local trips you might only fill up once every two or three weeks so can pick the most convenient time.

In normal life I charge at home, no wasted trips to service stations.

On long trips I drive up to a charger, plug in & go for a break roughly every 2-3 hours.

 

[Meerkat]

If you only do local trips you'll only need to charge an EV once a week. If you have off road parking, you'd just do that at home.

That's the problem - lots of people don't have off road parking or wont have a charger unless their landlord is forced to install one (not sure how freeholders will behave for installations, my current one would be OK in theory but concerned about legal issues, the old one would have found any reason to charge me loads of admin fees)

 

[reddragon]

That's the problem - lots of people don't have off road parking or wont have a charger unless their landlord is forced to install one (not sure how freeholders will behave for installations, my current one would be OK in theory but concerned about legal issues, the old one would have found any reason to charge me loads of admin fees)

Those without drives will suffer for a long while yet unless you have available cheap overnight charging nearby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the problem - lots of people don't have off road parking or wont have a charger unless their landlord is forced to install one (not sure how freeholders will behave for installations, my current one would be OK in theory but concerned about legal issues, the old one would have found any reason to charge me loads of admin fees)

However, there would still be huge benefits to everyone if every car owner who does have off road parking was to switch. I believe I checked this and more houses have off road parking than not. And a lot of them are in inner city areas where it might be worth considering not owning at all and joining a car club instead.

This Forum has a habit of finding minority situations for which something won't work and using it to rubbish the concept. With cars, if you were to switch everyone but those minorities to EVs the benefits would be massive, just as the benefits of getting every smartphone or PC+printer owner to use e-tickets for their train travel are massive even if you still have a few people who always pay cash and have an old Nokia who won't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

Those without drives will suffer for a long while yet unless you have available cheap overnight charging nearby.

Or they'll charge during e.g. their weekly supermarket trip. It'll cost more, but that's offset against the fact that housing without off road parking is usually quite a lot cheaper than housing with it.

Generally people use cars to go to places, and when they do they mostly park in a car park for a period of at least half an hour but often much longer (often all day, e.g. at work or a railway station). Increasingly, car parks will be provided with charging facilities.

It's not an non-issue (but houses without off road parking pose lots of issues generally, and perhaps it's time to revisit how car ownership is handled in those areas entirely, with e.g. lots of encouragement of joining a car club instead of owning more than one car per household, say), but it's not a killer, either. I do have a driveway, but if I didn't I'd still be considering an EV as my next car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

I don't want to sit around in a service station (nor have the stress of hoping the service station has a charger free). And it isn't relevant for a 2 or 3 hour journey each way to a destination with no chargers.

So, I do personally do this quite often - drive from MK to the Peak District (about 2.5 hours), do a day's walking or climbing, and drive back.

It's not unpleasant to go for a drink or even a meal with the people I've been doing those activities with before the long drive. That's your charging opportunity.

Or let's say I've gone to camp there, stopping off for breakfast or lunch on the way back (depending on the time I leave) is not at all unpleasant and also brings benefit to the local economy. Again, there's your charging opportunity.

 

[jon0844]

There are now cars that can charge to 80% in about 18 minutes. I'm sure they'll be able to optimise things further to get down to 15 or maybe even 10 minutes.

I know that you can often pull into a petrol station, fill up, pay at pump and be gone in 3 or 4 minutes, but quite often you'll queue for a pump, the pump may be slower because the other side is dispensing, and then a queue to pay inside (oh and you may even need to faff with an app for your loyalty points).

Filling a tank isn't instantaneous either! New petrol stations with loads of charging bays will mean that those minutes normally spent filling can be better spent walking around, having a coffee or popping to the toilet. If you need to fill your tank and then do any of those things too, you've reduced the time saving even further.

We aren't there yet, but that's how the industry is going so it will be that way - and those putting liquid fuel in will look rather antiquated.

 

[Meerkat]

I believe I checked this and more houses have off road parking than not.

I would be interested to see that stat, as it sounds unlikely (possibly due to off street parking not necessarily meaning your own drive or allocated parking space). It also presumably doesn't account for having more cars than off road spaces. I'm sure you will respond by saying we need to stop this, but thats where the concept hits political reality.

This Forum has a habit of finding minority situations for which something won't work and using it to rubbish the concept.

You have a habit of deciding that people who have different situations are minorities! And almost taking it as a personal slight against the concept - you can support the concept of a move to EVs without agreeing that the infrastructure is suitable and convenient.

Or they'll charge during e.g. their weekly supermarket trip. It'll cost more, but that's offset against the fact that housing without off road parking is usually quite a lot cheaper than housing with it.

If there is a charger free, and again political reality hits - motorists have a lot of political clout and that would be even more so if those hardest hit were the poorest (like anti HS2 NIMBYs suddenly deciding they love ancient woodland!)

It's not unpleasant to go for a drink or even a meal with the people I've been doing those activities with before the long drive. That's your charging opportunity.

Or let's say I've gone to camp there, stopping off for breakfast or lunch on the way back (depending on the time I leave) is not at all unpleasant and also brings benefit to the local economy. Again, there's your charging opportunity.

But you have now made those two things linked - you have to get the car, go to the food spot, and hope they have a spare charger. When we go walking the nice food break is the lunch (when we can have a pint or two) not at the end when we want to get home.
My personal issue would be with football trips. I dont want to add on even longer to the travel time being bored in a service station, and its hard enough finding parking so there is very little chance of finding parking near the ground with a charger.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

but quite often you'll queue for a pump

I almost never queue for a pump

New petrol stations with loads of charging bays will mean that those minutes normally spent filling can be better spent walking around, having a coffee or popping to the toilet.

If you are queueing for petrol pumps then the petrol station will not have the extra space needed to charge those cars. And how long do you spend in the loo!
PS I am not a millenial - I don't have to drink coffee at every possible moment!

 

[jon0844]

As long as there's money to be made from offering charging facilities, as EVs become the norm, charging won't be an issue because everyone will want to get in on it.

That's why the issue of charging won't exist in the future, because businesses won't want to miss out on the business opportunities, or indeed to lose custom from people not going to their establishment because they can't charge there (I refer to countryside pubs, camps etc - not your local One Stop).

I remember getting a contactless payment card back in 2007 and using it within the trial areas, and many people thought they'd never take off. Cash was still king and so on. They would be too open to fraud etc.

Now in 2022, who doesn't take cards? I know a few small businesses who refuse to take cards and they're virtually one in a million.

Even friends who pay me do so by a bank transfer and wouldn't dream of going to a cash machine.

Whatever excuses people can think of for saying EVs aren't the future won't stop it from happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be interested to see that stat, as it sounds unlikely (possibly due to off street parking not necessarily meaning your own drive or allocated parking space). It also presumably doesn't account for having more cars than off road spaces. I'm sure you will respond by saying we need to stop this, but thats where the concept hits political reality.

And that's where car clubs come in. On most terraced streets there's room for each house to have one small car alongside their own house, with a few of them ending up round the corner alongside the "long side" of the houses. The problems occur when a household has more than one. Yet a good many households need something like 1.2 cars - most of the time one suffices but sometimes a second one is useful. This is where car clubs come in.

You have a habit of deciding that people who have different situations are minorities!

As one example, people who don't use debit cards or smartphones are a minority - an absolutely tiny one in 2022 and getting smaller all the time as those people, who tend to be older, pass away.

When considered objectively, and with small and manageable lifestyle tweaks, most cars could be replaced by an EV. If a few aren't, that matters much less, as you still get a huge reduction in pollution at the point of use. The main barrier is realistically the purchase price as there is not yet a viable second hand market unless a Nissan Leaf suits your needs.

But you have now made those two things linked - you have to get the car, go to the food spot, and hope they have a spare charger. When we go walking the nice food break is the lunch (when we can have a pint or two) not at the end when we want to get home.

It's a minor tweak to your day so an asthmatic kid isn't suffering as much from your particulates.

My personal issue would be with football trips. I dont want to add on even longer to the travel time being bored in a service station, and its hard enough finding parking so there is very little chance of finding parking near the ground with a charger.

It'd be better if people used public transport or the organised away coaches for football trips anyway - the large number of cars often parked on-street in areas not well suited for that causes no end of problems. So if this pushes you not to drive, good. A bit like it's a good, not a bad, thing if those drivers who think they can still be properly attentive after doing a 4-5 hour stretch non-stop are prevented from doing so.

 

[jon0844]

If you are queueing for petrol pumps then the petrol station will not have the extra space needed to charge those cars. And how long do you spend in the loo!
PS I am not a millenial - I don't have to drink coffee at every possible moment!

Other beverages are available, but I think you're somewhat missing the point.

Filling a car isn't instant and if a car can be charged to almost full in 15 minutes, or enough for another 100 miles in under 10, the difference is slight.

That you never queue is great. I'd say the biggest factor is the time you fill up, so I'll usually aim for doing so at night - but when I was on the road during the day for long trips, it means inevitably having to do a fill up at a motorway service station.

I'd usually just put in £5 and do a cheaper fill later, meaning the fill up was quicker but I still had the same time to pull off the motorway, queue to pay and get back on. I guess if BP charges stupid money for EV charging, you may get people doing the same - just charge for 5 minutes and add 50-60 miles at a premium and use a cheaper charger later on.

Charging time isn't the issue now, it's the availability of chargers and so far this year I've seen literally hundreds of new charging bays brought into service or going into service soon. By the time I buy an EV, I will have almost no fear - and also the benefit of starting off every day with a car offering a full 'tank'.

 

[The Ham]

I would be interested to see that stat, as it sounds unlikely (possibly due to off street parking not necessarily meaning your own drive or allocated parking space). It also presumably doesn't account for having more cars than off road spaces. I'm sure you will respond by saying we need to stop this, but thats where the concept hits political reality.

As with all things there's a range of answers from 25% without somewhere to charge their car:

As fleets go electric, nearly 25% of drivers don’t have anywhere to charge them. - Field Dynamics

In our last article, we discussed the impact fleets are going to have on EV ownership. In case you need a recap, 2019 saw 1,711,000 new vehicles registered to corporations. Electric Vehicles (EVs) are becoming an increasingly popular choice among companies as they try to align their fleets with...

www.field-dynamics.co.uk

Through to 40% don't have a driveway:
https://www.sidmartinbio.org/how-many-houses-in-uk-have-driveways/

Although on the latter or should be noted that the estimate is that 28% of fossils with a car don't have a driveway.

That's two sources which ultimately provide a similar answer where is broadly a 30:70 split, so about double the number of households have off street parking than don't (where a car is owned by that household).

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's two sources which ultimately provide a similar answer where is broadly a 30:70 split, so about double the number of households have off street parking than don't (where a car is owned by that household).

Thanks.

Even replacing 70% of the country's car fleet with EVs (allowing newer ICE cars to filter down as used, so those who don't have a driveway drive newer, less polluting ICE cars) would bring massive benefits, so that sounds good to me.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Reducing car usage is far more achievable and vastly more beneficial than changing people to electric cars and keeping most of the problems cars cause on our streets but judging by the very car centric responses here and some of the staggering anti-cyclist responses elsewhere on this forum the answer to the thread title is clearly an emphatic yes sadly. It's just baffling seeing the streets increasingly jam packed with cars now and seeing people argue the solution is more cars.

 

[AM9]

... If you are queueing for petrol pumps then the petrol station will not have the extra space needed to charge those cars. And how long do you spend in the loo!
PS I am not a millenial - I don't have to drink coffee at every possible moment!

The much more likely situation will be a considerable rise in the retail price of petrol (and definitely diesel). That might be through market forces as sales drop, and for sure with duty/tax disincentives to push private and commercial owners towards EVs. That doesn't mean that garages will have empty pumps for the few remaining ICV drivers, - more a case of most garages shutting down, unless they decide to develop a charging business there although only certain locations will be suitable for that.
By then the whole fuelling situation will have been reversed with ICV drivers maybe getting range anxiety and having to queue for pump access.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

Reducing car usage is far more achievable and vastly more beneficial than changing people to electric cars and keeping most of the problems cars cause on our streets but judging by the very car centric responses here and some of the staggering anti-cyclist responses elsewhere on this forum the answer to the thread title is clearly an emphatic yes sadly. It's just baffling seeing the streets increasingly jam packed with cars now and seeing people argue the solution is more cars.

It's certainly looking like car ownership will be reduced, particularly two and three-car households where with the introduction of an EV it becomes a vehicle for multiple users to drive. Given the issues already upon those living in areas where all vehicles are parked outside their owners' houses meaning that streets are almost permanently single track roads with a parallel car park opn each side, the concept of a family vehicle supported occasionally by a 'car club' vehicle as @Bletchleyite suggests will come as a relief to many in that situation.

 

[Bald Rick]

Reducing car usage is far more achievable and vastly more beneficial than changing people to electric cars

it really isn’t. If it was, we’d have reduced car usage right now rather than nearly half a million EVs on the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reducing car usage is far more achievable and vastly more beneficial than changing people to electric cars

No, it's not. It's really not. Switching people to EVs is much easier than getting them to change their whole lifestyle around public transport or cycling. Though you'd not know, given how many "antis" on here won't even take a short break on their long journeys so they can switch.

This is getting like the thread on speeding up bus journeys. It's not one or the other, it's both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

It's certainly looking like car ownership will be reduced, particularly two and three-car households where with the introduction of an EV it becomes a vehicle for multiple users to drive. Given the issues already upon those living in areas where all vehicles are parked outside their owners' houses meaning that streets are almost permanently single track roads with a parallel car park opn each side, the concept of a family vehicle supported occasionally by a 'car club' vehicle as @Bletchleyite suggests will come as a relief to many in that situation.

Car clubs can also allow people to "trade down" for the main vehicle (which has several benefits - less electricity used, less on-road parking space used, reduced cost to purchase meaning switching to EV is more affordable). If they only need a small to medium car for daily use, why own a large one to use it a few times a year when you can get a large one or a van from the car club when you need that?

Yes, I'm tall and so I need a lot of space for me, but the "boxy" small cars* have plenty of space for the driver if I could pick up a medium van "on spec" nearby for 20 quid for a few hours for collecting big purchases or going to the tip.

* There aren't as many "boxy" city cars as there were, but there's that weird Nissan, the Ford Tourneo Courier (which is Fiesta based but vertically stretched) and I had a Vauxhall Agila (Suzuki Wagon version) years ago which was great for a small car for a tall driver, as well as the Citroen Nemo and the Peugeot version, and I think a Fiat equivalent too.

 

[The Ham]

Reducing car usage is far more achievable and vastly more beneficial than changing people to electric cars and keeping most of the problems cars cause on our streets but judging by the very car centric responses here and some of the staggering anti-cyclist responses elsewhere on this forum the answer to the thread title is clearly an emphatic yes sadly. It's just baffling seeing the streets increasingly jam packed with cars now and seeing people argue the solution is more cars.

Indeed, which is why encouraging cycling, walking, use of public transport and car clubs are all good things to do.

On car clubs some have found that one car removes 18 from nearby streets (although 10-12 is now typically) even if that's 1 car club car for 500 cars that's still a reduction in cars by 2%, which brings benefits to everyone (including those who retain their cars as it's then easier to park).

it really isn’t. If it was, we’d have reduced car usage rather than nearly half a million EVs on the road.

Individually no it's not, however if the money being spent on maintaining the status quo (i.e. road building, charging points, etc.) was spent on getting more car clubs to be rolled out, providing better public transport and the like then it could (for the amount of carbon reduction achieved) be easier to reach net zero than mostly relying on EV's (which at best currently are circa 50% reduction vs ICE's when you look at while life emissions)