Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Bald Rick]

The transition period will be an issue though as legacy air pollution related health issues will take a while to fade

a £40bn a year issue for a few decades, yes.

 

[DustyBin]

That is a bit of a red herring actually.

Once you take into account the health care costs of air pollution and the extravagant subsidies to the oil industry, then savings from much lower energy costs for the Government once we go 100% renewables the gap is tiny.

The transition period will be an issue though as legacy air pollution related health issues will take a while to fade

I just can't see them not introducing some kind of tax or road charging. What you're saying may well be true but the benefits won't be felt for years (decades I suspect) which is going to leave a considerable funding deficit. As you know I no longer have a company car, but if I were to swap from my old 520d to a Model 3 the financial benefit would be absolutely huge. It seems too good to be true in the long term!

Edited to add that by "long term" I actually mean beyond the next twelve months.

 

[ashkeba]

The ones near me are definitely just "tap your card". However, installing an app takes a few seconds, and after a few times you'd have all of them there and ready.

and a phone with limited memory and a load of badly-written apps phoning home and draining battery.

Do any chargers not charge a higher punishment rate for paying by contactless card rather than their app?

 

[Bletchleyite]

and a phone with limited memory and a load of badly-written apps phoning home and draining battery.

With the current price of EVs and relative lack of a used market unless you like Nissan Leafs (Leaves?), they are very much not of interest to those who are in the budget mobile phone market. Almost all current EV drivers will have either the latest iPhone or a premium Android device. To that market, a few more charging apps are no more of a concern than a few more parking apps.

By the time EVs are mass-market, so will be mobile phones with that sort of capability. As people basically throw them in the bin after their contract ends, two to three-year-old smartphones can be had for almost free.

"But I don't want a new phone" / "But a collection of apps on my phone upsets me" => an EV is not presently for you.

 

[AM9]

and a phone with limited memory and a load of badly-written apps phoning home and draining battery.

Do any chargers not charge a higher punishment rate for paying by contactless card rather than their app?

Maybe if you are planning on having that same basic smartphone for the next 10-20 years. Otherwise, amongst the cost of preparing to own and use an EV, you might just be able to upgrade the phone to one suitable for the 2020s.

 

[jon0844]

I can't imagine many EV customers not having a reasonably recent smartphone. For one thing, Android Auto/Apple CarPlay is almost always the best way to manage navigation, music streaming and other apps. If you haven't tried either, I recommend it (or watch countless YouTube videos to show them in use).

Secondly, apps don't generally suck loads of power or phone home all the time. Speaking for Android (and Apple will be even stricter) there are rules on how and when an app can communicate - as battery consumption is critical - and often the phone will go into sleep mode and wake periodically for comms to take place (and for things like notifications, it will poll for updates at regular intervals). Not only can you limit this further, by turning off background data or limiting individual apps to run in the background at all, but you can see the power consumption. Many phones will even warn you of an app taking more power than expected, and you can remove permissions for certain things too.

Frankly, modern smartphones (or older ones on fairly recent OS builds from the last few years) will not just drain your battery unless you're sideloading questionable apps or disabling power management options/putting the phone in 'extreme' mode (something gamers might do, but not anyone else).

What drains the battery? Using the screen, especially at a high brightness level. That's the biggest killer by far, at least on phones with huge displays and where you're using hours of screen on time to consume media, browse, play games etc. Even using mobile data is a lot less of an issue, and with faster 4G and 5G phones you send data more efficiently (better encoding) and quicker, so power consumption is kept to a minimum there too.

Assuming you're a fairly light user, which someone with a budget phone may well be, you've little to worry about unless you bought a phone with a tiny battery or it's old enough that the battery has seen better days and may need to be replaced.

Something like the Samsung A12, with a 5,000mAh battery, would be ideal - and there are loads of alternatives from the likes of Xiaomi, Realme and Honor that would work brilliantly for very little money... some promising 3 years of OS updates and 4 years of security updates - almost getting to Apple iPhone levels of support (for peanuts).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think most people with this kind of objection are people the EV market is simply not ready for yet - people for whom value for money is a priority, and who put great weight on not replacing items they have frequently. They probably drive a petrol car maybe 5-10 years old and use a old, low-specification Android handset that they have had for years and bought used even back then.

Those people are all very well, but it will be at least 10 years before the EV market has developed such that they will feel it is for them. And that's fine - EVs would always "filter through" in this way, and it's good for the market for them to continue buying used petrol cars, because if petrol cars suddenly have zero value, that means those who own them and want to trade up to an EV may not be able to afford to do so.

Diesels on the other hand we probably don't want to filter through like that, so a scrappage scheme would be of value at some point fairly soon, even if only for those people to switch to used petrols. It's possible my current car is my last ICE car, but not 100% certain, however I am quite confident it is my last diesel car - there is a small chance of a petrol hybrid creeping in between depending on prices in about a year's time.

 

[jon0844]

I think the number of EV car sales last year (as a percentage of overall sales) suggests the migration might be a lot quicker than anyone expected - especially those rolling out charging infrastructure who need to catch up. Maybe the petrol 'shortages' and the price rises became the stick to encourage people to change sooner than they otherwise might.

Petrol and diesel prices have come down a bit recently, but I think the mindset now is that energy prices are going to continue to rise and rise - and while that means electricity going up too, I think people feel they have more control. Plus, for now, electric cars are loads cheaper to run - so that gives a bit more of a buffer for further price hikes.

The ranges on modern EVs are also reducing that battery anxiety problem. For a lot of people, they're now looking at buying a car they can charge maybe just once a week, or simply trickle charge every day to always start a drive at 100%. Those who can't charge at home will also feel less concerned if they can charge when they're out shopping etc.

 

[Shrop]

The ones near me are definitely just "tap your card". However, installing an app takes a few seconds, and after a few times you'd have all of them there and ready.

Out of interest then, how many different apps would you recommend, so that I have say a 90%+ chance that wherever I might turn up, I can use their charge point? Also, roughly how much per KWh would I be likely to pay? (I pay around 6p overnight at home, but around 22p if I need to use daytime electricity).

 

[reddragon]

Instavolt covers fast food places and Gridserve motorway services and MFG are contactless
Podpoint via an app for Tesco, co-op and many other car parks
Shell is via a RFID that you can also register for Geniepoint chargers at Morrisons

Avoid BP and old Ecotricity chargers

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest then, how many different apps would you recommend, so that I have say a 90%+ chance that wherever I might turn up, I can use their charge point? Also, roughly how much per KWh would I be likely to pay? (I pay around 6p overnight at home, but around 22p if I need to use daytime electricity).

Surely you would just install them as you went along, as I do for parking apps?

 

[bspahh]

Assuming you're a fairly light user, which someone with a budget phone may well be, you've little to worry about unless you bought a phone with a tiny battery or it's old enough that the battery has seen better days and may need to be replaced.

Something like the Samsung A12, with a 5,000mAh battery, would be ideal - and there are loads of alternatives from the likes of Xiaomi, Realme and Honor that would work brilliantly for very little money... some promising 3 years of OS updates and 4 years of security updates - almost getting to Apple iPhone levels of support (for peanuts).

I would also make sure that you have some internet data allowance, and do not rely on using a WiFi hotspot.

There was an article in A to B magazine https://www.atob.org.uk/ where they did a 250 mile journey with a electric van with a range of ~80 miles. It all worked eventually, but they had to use a variety of charging networks. Sometimes these used a contactless debit card, but for ones that used an app, they had to use WiFi hotspots, which was more hassle.

 

[AM9]

I would also make sure that you have some internet data allowance, and do not rely on using a WiFi hotspot.

There was an article in A to B magazine https://www.atob.org.uk/ where they did a 250 mile journey with a electric van with a range of ~80 miles. It all worked eventually, but they had to use a variety of charging networks. Sometimes these used a contactless debit card, but for ones that used an app, they had to use WiFi hotspots, which was more hassle.

But for somebody who has bought an EV and wants to charge away from home, a pretty modest mobile contract with more than enough data allowance would cost no more that £6 per month. With 4G often better than wi-fi, especially outdoors, that cost would be negligible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would also make sure that you have some internet data allowance, and do not rely on using a WiFi hotspot.

What on earth is the point* in having a smartphone with no data allowance? Literally the whole point of a smartphone is to use Internet services on the move. If you aren't going to do that, save your money and get a dumbphone with a week's battery life for £10.

I venture that the number of people who presently own or lease an EV, or are likely to do so in the next 2-3 years or so, who do not have a reasonable smartphone with a data allowance is either 0 or incredibly close to it.

The niche exceptions people come up with in this forum make my mind utterly boggle. Who's spending £30K+ on a new EV (there's hardly any used market yet) and doesn't have a decent spec smartphone with a data contract?

* OK, some kids get parental hand-me-downs with no contract to effectively use as a small tablet, but kids don't drive EVs.

 

[AM9]

What on earth is the point* in having a smartphone with no data allowance? Literally the whole point of a smartphone is to use Internet services on the move. If you aren't going to do that, save your money and get a dumbphone with a week's battery life for £10.

I venture that the number of people who presently own or lease an EV who do not have a reasonable smartphone with a data allowance is either 0 or incredibly close to it.

* OK, some kids get parental hand-me-downs with no contract to effectively use as a small tablet, but kids don't drive EVs.

I think the arguments about smartphnoes for charger apps is just another bit of negative point scoring by those who refuse to acknowledge the change to EVs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the arguments about smartphnoes for charger apps is just another bit of negative point scoring by those who refuse to acknowledge the change to EVs.

That's exactly what it is. And the answer for those people is that EVs are not presently for them, and they should continue to buy and drive used petrol (not diesel, unless they are Euro 6) cars for now, keeping the used market going and enabling the progressive changeover.

The problem in this thread is that people are confusing "an EV is not presently for me" with "EVs are a bad idea".

 

[DustyBin]

I've got to say the concerns over downloading apps, internet connectivity, phone battery life etc. etc. seem rather spurious!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got to say the concerns over downloading apps, internet connectivity, phone battery life etc. etc. seem rather spurious!

Downloading apps is a bit of a faff. But before long, if you download them as you go along, you'll have a full set, and then it's not a problem any more. It's exactly the same as parking apps if you, like I, prefer that method of paying for parking (its big advantage being that you can add extra time if it runs out). Or bus company apps, or taxi apps or whatever.

 

[Meerkat]

I think the point is it is harder than just driving into any petrol station you see, and all adds to the time disadvantage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the point is it is harder than just driving into any petrol station you see, and all adds to the time disadvantage.

It's just different. On a long journey you should take a decent break, and you just combine it with that. And you can't plug your petrol car in overnight at home, so most of the time, if you have off road parking, you won't need to plug in anywhere other than each night at home.

 

[bspahh]

That's exactly what it is. And the answer for those people is that EVs are not presently for them, and they should continue to buy and drive used petrol (not diesel, unless they are Euro 6) cars for now, keeping the used market going and enabling the progressive changeover.

The problem in this thread is that people are confusing "an EV is not presently for me" with "EVs are a bad idea".

The people who wrote the article in A to B are completely sold on the environmental side of owning an electric vehicle, not so much on the joys of a smartphone. However, I daresay, they now have some data allowance on the phone they use for the charging apps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The people who wrote the article in A to B are completely sold on the environmental side of owning an electric vehicle, not so much on the joys of a smartphone. However, I daresay, they now have some data allowance on the phone they use for the charging apps.

That may be so, but my point is that EVs are so expensive that people buying them in the near future will just have a decent smartphone with a data contract by default. A lot of them will even have work phones.

EV ownership, unless you're into old Nissan Leafs as a runaround, is not presently a thing compatible with the idea of thrift. Yet.

 

[reddragon]

I think the point is it is harder than just driving into any petrol station you see, and all adds to the time disadvantage.

EV get home plug in, go indoors, wake up unplug drive off. No deviation, time & cost wasted going to a Petrol Station to get hands dirty, queue up to fill / pay etc

When out, pull up to charger, activate, plug in, go for a cuppa, come back end session, unplug & leave.

Hmm, I know what is easier here!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2022 ==

That may be so, but my point is that EVs are so expensive that people buying them in the near future will just have a decent smartphone with a data contract by default. A lot of them will even have work phones.

EV ownership, unless you're into old Nissan Leafs as a runaround, is not presently a thing compatible with the idea of thrift. Yet.

I fitted in the thrifty old banger category without a smart phone.

Bought EV due to mileage & saved money, fussed with charging, gave up & got smart phone.

Done deal !!

 

[py_megapixel]

"But a collection of apps on my phone upsets me" => an EV is not presently for you.

That's only really a concern on the Apple side, where for reasons I don't understand, they insist upon every installed app appearing on the homepage. With Android it's perfectly possible to install apps and have them wait out of the way, never actually appearing until you actually go looking for them.

As people basically throw them in the bin after their contract ends, two to three-year-old smartphones can be had for almost free.

I have just purchased a second-hand Galaxy S9 in very good condition for slightly over £100. Literally an eighth of what Samsung would have wanted for it new. eBay had no shortage of Android flagships of the same age priced similarly, while iPhones were a little more expensive but still well under £200.

As for the device itself, it takes anything I can throw at it. I'm not sure what advantage I would have gained from buying a brand new phone for the same price as the second-hand one. It was as a choice between the S9 and something newer but at the low end, such as a Nokia, Samsung A-series or maybe one of the Chinese manufacturers. The only discernible disadvantage of an older phone compared to a new one seems to be the battery having degraded somewhat, but even if I used it intensively for a day I think I'd still have enough charge left to get away with travelling home on an e-ticket (or, in this case, activating an EV charging point)

I assume the people who are selling these are upgrading to new flagships, but I struggle to understand what the point of them is (other than to provide a good stream of second-hand ones a few years later!) as even my old Moto G pretty much did everything that was needed of it without ever slowing down; the only reason I replaced it was because it was physically damaged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's only really a concern on the Apple side, where for reasons I don't understand, they insist upon every installed app appearing on the homepage. With Android it's perfectly possible to install apps and have them wait out of the way, never actually appearing until you actually go looking for them.

That is no longer the case with iOS, though I forget when it changed. iOS's "desktop" now works pretty much the same way as Android's, though the full app list appears a bit differently.

 

[Starmill]

I think the arguments about smartphnoes for charger apps is just another bit of negative point scoring by those who refuse to acknowledge the change to EVs.

Indeed.

How many people use the nectar app now instead of the plastic card, now nearly all of the features have migrated to it? The Lidl Plus app was never available in any format but the app. Even Morrisons closed down their rewards scheme and replaced it with in-app vouchers. How many people do you get furiously railing against not being able to get the offers at Sainsbury's or Lidl? None, they just accept that either they don't get the offers, or they shop elsewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2022 ==

Downloading apps is a bit of a faff.

It is. But people will do it for their supermarket(s) of choice without thinking about it nowadays. Same for their train ticket seller of choice. Really no difference to the charger schemes.

But on the wider scale I think that the thing that needs to be most borne in mind is this: all urban driving is bad. All new-build cars are bad. Electric vehicles are less bad than petrol or diesel vehicles, but they are still bad. Those challenges are at government and international level, though, not at the level of a consumer choosing which car they will be buying.

 

[jon0844]

But for somebody who has bought an EV and wants to charge away from home, a pretty modest mobile contract with more than enough data allowance would cost no more that £6 per month. With 4G often better than wi-fi, especially outdoors, that cost would be negligible.

Now that many cars have integrated 4G (perhaps even 5G now), do any allow you to manage the charging apps via the car itself - rather than your smartphone?

 

[reddragon]

Now that many cars have integrated 4G (perhaps even 5G now), do any allow you to manage the charging apps via the car itself - rather than your smartphone?

Yes, Tesla do and I think some up market ones do as well

 

[The Ham]

In terms of phones you can buy a new phone with a half decent specification, so my latest phone cost £140 has a 5,000mha battery and 128gb of storage (my previous phone had just 16gb). Combined that's plenty of space for apps and enough battery life to allow a two day trip without charging.

That's about what two tanks of fuel cost for our car, but should last for at least 3 years before it needs to be replaced.

As such as long as the EV saves at least £1 for each 200 miles then that saving would offset the cost of buying such a phone.

 

[Meerkat]

EV get home plug in, go indoors, wake up unplug drive off. No deviation, time & cost wasted going to a Petrol Station to get hands dirty, queue up to fill / pay etc

When out, pull up to charger, activate, plug in, go for a cuppa, come back end session, unplug & leave.

Hmm, I know what is easier here!

If you have a drive.
At a petrol station you don't have to have the cuppa.