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No 10 rule breaking gatherings during 2020.

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daodao

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So what.

Loads of people will have held parties/gatherings in their private back gardens during lockdown, e.g. for the 75th anniversary of VE day.

All this fuss about Bojo is British humbug.

Putin would have dealt with the leakers effectively (or may be not - he bungled in disposing of Skripov and Navalny).

The British upper class is all about "do what I say (not what I do)" and "don't be found out", unlike (ex-HRH) Prince Randy Pandy.
 
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nw1

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I hope not but unfortunately many will have forgotten and there will be more issues that will be drive peoples voting intentions then.

Though one of these intentions will be two years of harder times economically, I suspect, and people will (hopefully) blame the incumbents - the Tories. Rightly or wrongly, incumbents normally get the blame in hard times.

At that point Starmer, or whoever is in charge of the Labour party by then, will be in with a real chance as Covid will be off the agenda I suspect and the main critique of Labour, i.e. possible support of over-harsh restrictions, will no longer be a consideration. People will I suspect welcome Labour's more 'welfare sympathetic' politics after two years of austerity from the Tories.

Unless the economy and people's personal finances do surprisingly well in the next two years, or the Tories indulge in a spending spree despite economic hard times, I now think there is a real chance the Tories will lose the next election, whether it be 'Boris' or someone else leading them by then.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Unless the economy and people's personal finances do surprisingly well in the next two years, or the Tories indulge in a spending spree despite economic hard times, I now think there is a real chance the Tories will lose the next election, whether it be 'Boris' or someone else leading them by then.
Did not such a spending spree take place at the start of their current term of office, prior to the pandemic occurring?
 

nw1

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I thought we had a referendum to make that decision?

Which was very marginal (13 people voting leave for every 12 voting remain) so there was no mandate for the hard version (no customs union, no freedom of movement either way) that we got. Johnson and May are entirely to blame for this, there are other countries in Europe which are not in the EU but do have free movement and free trade with the EU. But this isn't the thread for a discussion on this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How do you mean?

I guess he was referring to my own views on Brexit (see above) but I have answered that in my last post.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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It doesn't really matter that much who sent the invitation out. Once Johnson had turned up and stood around talking/drinking at what was clearly a party he is complicit. As the overall "boss" in no 10, his only get out would be that he went outside, saw what was happening, ordered the party to finish there and then everyone to go home. As that isn't what is being claimed, he's guilty.

Quite why you keep being so obtuse about this, I don't know. You're either defending the indefensible or are staggeringly naïve as to what happened. To remind you: Johnson is a pathological liar.
It depends if you wish to draw a comparison to the other headline at present.

Following on from your logic above, if Johnson is the overall "boss" of number 10, with the intimation you claim, then H M the Queen as the overall "boss" of the Royal family, she should be held responsible for the questionable actions of one of her sons.
 

ChrisC

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Unfortunately most people will have forgotten about this in two years time. He's only toast now if the Tory party want rid of him and i just can't see that spineless lot doing the right thing.
There will also be many people who will not forget in two years time or indeed ever. Those who stuck to the rules often during very difficult circumstances. Above all those who lost loved ones without being able to visit them in hospitals and care homes and then were not able to even attend a funeral. If someone has waved a loved one off in an ambulance never to see them again I don’t think they will ever forget.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There will also be many people who will not forget in two years time or indeed ever. Those who stuck to the rules often during very difficult circumstances. Above all those who lost loved ones without being able to visit them in hospitals and care homes and then were not able to even attend a funeral. If someone has waved a loved one off in an ambulance never to see them again I don’t think they will ever forget.
Was the stated embargo on visiting something that was a decision made by the Government under their personal evaluation of the situation occurring or was the decision that of what is described as "The Science" under the medical decisions arrived at by those highly placed medical supremos.

I very much doubt if those at Cabinet level had any medical knowledge amongst any of the ministerial departmental heads to make such a decision.

What was the prevailing view in the Labour Party at the time?
 

43096

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It depends if you wish to draw a comparison to the other headline at present.

Following on from your logic above, if Johnson is the overall "boss" of number 10, with the intimation you claim, then H M the Queen as the overall "boss" of the Royal family, she should be held responsible for the questionable actions of one of her sons.
There is something of a difference between the actions of someone in their private life and what is happening in a workplace. Johnson sets the culture for No 10 as a workplace: he is himself directly implicated in the allegations and the volume of allegations means this is about the culture as much as anything else. Whereas the Queen clearly sets a culture for the Royals, the allegations are against one individual (in their private, not working, life) not the culture of the entire Royal family.

I suspect you know this, but are being argumentative just for the sake of it.
 

nw1

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It depends if you wish to draw a comparison to the other headline at present.

Following on from your logic above, if Johnson is the overall "boss" of number 10, with the intimation you claim, then H M the Queen as the overall "boss" of the Royal family, she should be held responsible for the questionable actions of one of her sons.

Except Johnson attended at least one of the parties and the Queen did not participate in any action allegedly performed by Andrew.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Except Johnson attended at least one of the parties and the Queen did not participate in any action allegedly performed by Andrew.
I am unsure of the legal understanding on the matter of the owning resident of a property under the rules that then applied concerning the number of allowable family groups, as being the owner and resident of a property (as part of the role of Prime Ministerial residence), would that person be deemed to be in situ in their own home residence and not an invitee to an event being held there?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Though one of these intentions will be two years of harder times economically, I suspect, and people will (hopefully) blame the incumbents - the Tories. Rightly or wrongly, incumbents normally get the blame in hard times.

At that point Starmer, or whoever is in charge of the Labour party by then, will be in with a real chance as Covid will be off the agenda I suspect and the main critique of Labour, i.e. possible support of over-harsh restrictions, will no longer be a consideration. People will I suspect welcome Labour's more 'welfare sympathetic' politics after two years of austerity from the Tories.

Unless the economy and people's personal finances do surprisingly well in the next two years, or the Tories indulge in a spending spree despite economic hard times, I now think there is a real chance the Tories will lose the next election, whether it be 'Boris' or someone else leading them by then.
The current brand or Toryism has shown itself very adept at throwing money around that even Labour administrations of the past didn't even come close to emulating. The current medium term spending plan envisage the need to borrow indefinitely which is rather anathema to Tory principles of balanced budget. BoJo also will continue to throw money at anything that helps prop him up as he's only in it for himself and not bothered about what legacy he leaves financially as it will never impact him. This is former Labour space and they need to accept that the landscape has changed and come up with something new but im not sure Labour as currently constructed is capable of that. My take is we need a gang of four MkII (Wiliams/Owen/Rodgers/Jenkins 1981) to create a more centrist part which that has broader appeal to the electorate as when it comes to voting too many hover over Labour with the pencil and can't do it so at best go for Liberal Democrats thus paving the way for Tories to retain power albeit with a much reduced majority this time.
 
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Bill Blain, strategist at investment managers Shard Capital, published a piece yesterday on his Morning Porridge blog: https://morningporridge.com/blog/bl...tim-while-self-righteous-wrath-sets-the-tone/
“My chances of being PM are about as good as the chances of finding Elvis on Mars, or my being reincarnated as an olive.”


This morning: Boris apologised – but is it too late? Resolving the innumerable crises facing the UK requires political focus, and less of the politically expedient indignation being displayed in parliament. It won’t make anything better, threatens further destabilisation, and diminish the UK’s global competitiveness..


The objective of the Morning Porridge is to connect the dots on markets – so let me ask the most pertinent question today: Would you be a buyer of UK plc? Probably not.


The optics from Westminster look terrible. The prospects for the nation look even worse. Its situation normal: FUBAR!


Coronavirus was a terrible and tragic event for innumerable families. Many people are justifiably angry having watched from afar as loved ones died alone. Yet, the events in parliament yesterday were a masterpiece of staged-managed faux indignation. The self-appointed Covid Truth and Reconciliation Committee has a whole list of names pricked, queued for the tumbril, and a terminal appointment on the Tower’s chopping board – like that is going to change anything…


The problem is such grandstanding while the government is on the ropes doesn’t achieve much – except make a bad situation worse. While Boris flounders, we can forget any meaningful effort to deal with the impact of soaring Energy prices on consumers, addressing the insatiable appetite of the NHS for more and more cash to do less and less, and as for the perceived benefits of Brexit? Well, that’s a boat that’s already sailed….


None of the critical crises blighting an increasingly dysfunctional Blighty look likely to be fixed as government lurches from crisis to catastrophe.


Every politician is looking to their own survival or advancement. Prime Minister in Waiting, Rishi Sunak, made sure he was out of London and singularly failed to post support for the PM. The leader of the Scottish Conservatives wisely put the boot in with the first call to resign – knowing Scots will love him for it. Et tu Brute? As new Tory MP spilloried the prime minister in the hope they might be able to hold on to “Red Wall” seats, something extraordinary happened in Parliament yesterday: Labour party leader Sir Kier Starmer looked almost competent and actually scored some telling blows.


The latest polls say Labour is leading the Tories. There was a time that would have caused me to rejoice – but now? Years of Tory rule has shown them mired in scandal, disregard for rules, and arrogance. But Labour shows little sign of a becoming a credible government.


Unless Boris goes against his grain and gives up, the reality is little is likely to change in the short-term. Next week we’ll see a civil servant’s report into the Tory Covid Parties. It might say a few damning things, apologies will be made, and that that will be it.


What happens next will be “interesting”. It’s likely the government will lurch on from crisis to crisis for another 3 years. Boris may or may not fall. Who would really want to take on the reins of power ahead of local elections in May (where the Tories will be spanked), ahead of massive energy bills in Q2 (when the Tories will be blamed), and the possibility inflation plunges the UK into a stagflationary recession later this year?


Who knows? Maybe Boris will remain – and maybe have learnt a lesson.


Yet, improbable as it may seem, this morning I feel deeply sorry for Boris. Who would have thought a lifelong Labour voter like myself would ever say it…


Whenever the opportunity presented itself, I’ve never hesitated to do Boris down, to lambast him for all his innumerable faults, and to repeatedly call him out for the way he’s diminished the office of Prime Minister. Boris makes us look stupid and that does not make Britain a better place..


But this business of the “summer party” at Downing Street? Come on. Is it worth breaking the nation on? Let it rest…


Take off the Covid Indignation Goggles and think about it. The email sent to the 100 Downing Street Staff is entitled: Socially distanced drinks. It specifically says: “this evening”, “in the garden” and “bring your own booze”… That is not a planned party designed to mock the populace.


I can pretty much imagine how it happened. Right through the pandemic staff worked around the clock in the complex of offices beneath the Downing Street residences. On a warm, balmy May evening.. probably as they were discussing easing covid restrictions, someone thought: “it’s a lovely evening… what’s wrong with a little Distanced Social moment with colleagues in the large spacious gardens out the back.” – the same guys they’d been sitting next to all day every day.


Tell me you would not have done it yourself?


We were all depressed about Covid Lockdowns back in May 2020 – and we all remember how wonderful the weather was as we celebrated VE Day. It cheered us up as we struggled with lockdown, doing our part by not mixing with strangers. And I am sure the majority of the staff who gathered 2 meters from each other in the Downing Street Garden felt the same way that day after work drinking the prosecco they’d bought from the newsagent next to Westminster tube station.


I was probably that same week when my wife and I, and our son snuck out on my boat and spent a night moored up on a river elsewhere – out of sight and mind. It was maybe the same week I shared cheeky lagers sitting on the shore after I ran into a chum who works for a major institution while out for a walk. We all kept our moment very quiet and low-key, concerned some Corona-Nazi would report us, or create a stink.


Worse things were done during the Pandemic. There was an almighty scandal in our village when a bunch of yummy-mummies managed to get themselves and their partners vaccinated right at the start of the programme – ahead of everyone else. If they’d kept it quiet no one would care, but they boasted about it. They were foolish to brag, but they were hardly evil incarnate – which is how Boris is now being painted.


Lest we forget, Boris had a pretty bad time with Covid himself.


Yes – Boris should have known better than to go to the “socially distanced gathering”, yes, he probably should have stopped it. But if we really want to hang and quarter Boris the Buffoon.. then stop and ask… “Let he without sin cast the first stone.”


Boris is a complete Richard, but he’s what we’ve got… Have you looked at the alternatives? Sunak lacks experience, and there are questions to be asked. Javid is highly competent, but could he win? If not, and you really, really feel the need to hang Boris, I have one thing to say to you:


Yes, Prime Minister Gove..


Please…. No..
Judging by the tone of recent posts here I suspect Bill’s view is a minority one. The unwritten subtext I took from it is that Johnson is the least worst of a very poor bunch all round.
 

dosxuk

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I am unsure of the legal understanding on the matter of the owning resident of a property under the rules that then applied concerning the number of allowable family groups, as being the owner and resident of a property (as part of the role of Prime Ministerial residence), would that person be deemed to be in situ in their own home residence and not an invitee to an event being held there?
In multiple cases, Johnson has been proven and/or admitted to being present/invited to these parties.

Your defence of Johnson makes me wonder if you would be so thorough if it was the Met Police partying at Scotland Yard outside Cressida Dick's office, or if it had been SNP staff at Holyrood.
 

Crossover

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So what.

Loads of people will have held parties/gatherings in their private back gardens during lockdown, e.g. for the 75th anniversary of VE day.

All this fuss about Bojo is British humbug.

Putin would have dealt with the leakers effectively (or may be not - he bungled in disposing of Skripov and Navalny).

The British upper class is all about "do what I say (not what I do)" and "don't be found out", unlike (ex-HRH) Prince Randy Pandy.

But they've been found out and people are (rightly) a bit hacked off by the hypocricy
 

brad465

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No10 have apologised to the Queen for the two parties held before the Duke's funeral:


Downing Street apologises to the Queen for two parties held in the building the night before Prince Philip's funeral

This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.


Once again though this is another example of apologising once they were caught. I think it also cements in people's minds that the Government and associated civil service staff essentially insulted the Her Majesty, making them far less likely to forgive this.
 

GusB

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It depends if you wish to draw a comparison to the other headline at present.

Following on from your logic above, if Johnson is the overall "boss" of number 10, with the intimation you claim, then H M the Queen as the overall "boss" of the Royal family, she should be held responsible for the questionable actions of one of her sons.
Why are you constantly trying to deflect the discussion from the actual matter at hand? The ongoing problem of Prince Andrew has nothing to do with this, and indeed has its own thread.

The whole point of the thread is that there were gatherings occurring at number ten at a time when the rest of us were subject to restrictions on who we were allowed to meet, how far and how often we were allowed to travel.

It doesn't matter one iota whether anyone agreed with the restrictions or not, nor whether everyone in the general populace followed them; the problem here is that the police often acted quite swiftly when it was the plebs breaking the rules, but it appears to be acceptable for politicians, civil servants and their entourage to be able to engage in "socially distanced" drinks at a time when the rest of us were prevented from doing so.

The people in charge at Downing Street are the Cabinet Secretary and, ultimately, the Prime Minister. The buck stops with him.
 

DelayRepay

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No10 have apologised to the Queen for the two parties held before the Duke's funeral:


Once again though this is another example of apologising once they were caught. I think it also cements in people's minds that the Government and associated civil service staff essentially insulted the Her Majesty, making them far less likely to forgive this.

So they appear to have admitted that these parties did take place, and have not asked the Queen to wait for the investigation report.

The PM's spokesman said it was "deeply regrettable that this took place at a time of national mourning".

Would breaking the law not have been deeply regrettable if it had happened a week earlier when the nation was not in mourning?

Whatever each of us thinks personally about the restrictions, the purpose of the restrictions, as repeatedly stated by the government was to reduce transmission of the virus, protect the NHS and prevent unnecessary deaths. Surely breaking rules designed to prevent unnecessary deaths is regrettable at any time?

For the avoidance of doubt, I make no comment on whether the rules were necessary, appropriate, excessive, or widely complied with by others. I simply observe that the Government appears to regret offending the Queen, but does not regret breaking rules that were deemed to be necessary to save lives.
 

nw1

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Bill Blain, strategist at investment managers Shard Capital, published a piece yesterday on his Morning Porridge blog: https://morningporridge.com/blog/bl...tim-while-self-righteous-wrath-sets-the-tone/

Judging by the tone of recent posts here I suspect Bill’s view is a minority one. The unwritten subtext I took from it is that Johnson is the least worst of a very poor bunch all round.

Really not sure about the argument here. It seems to be implying that we were all going round having 'socially distanced drinks' in May 2020. Were we? Socially distanced or not this was breaking the rules, and while the rules may have been inappropriate, the PM needs to lead by example. People were treated harshly by the police for breaking rules much less important than limiting the size of social gatherings (women, park, coffee; drones, Peak District; etc...)

I don't buy the 'Labour are unelectable' argument I am afraid. As I said many may consider them rather too restriction-happy at the moment but in two years time this will not I suspect be on the agenda. Biggest risk of a further Tory victory as @Nicholas Lewis says is they go on a very-un-Tory-like spending spree. But if that happens perhaps the Tories actually want Labour to win in 2024, as then the inevitable economic problems will be delayed into the next parliament and the Tories will want to avoid the blame. Economic prudence is about the only valid reason IMO for ever voting Tory.
 

dosxuk

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I simply observe that the Government appears to regret offending the Queen
And furthermore, only when one of the people the parties were organised for admitted they had happened. It's not like this apology has come from any sense of admitting to the wrongdoing, it's only come about because their hand has been forced. Also note that the apology came from No 10, not Johnson, with his spokesperson even going as far as to say, when questioned on that, that the PM had already apologised earlier in the week.

But then since this lot have previously been found guilty of lying to the Queen, are we really surprised?
 

D6130

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Let us not stop there, but investigations should also be put into motion against any members of the public who held similar events in their owned properties and the same castigations that have been levelled at Johnson in terms of involvement in such events when the matter of people dying in care homes, etc, should be made public.
I have to say that Downing Street is not a property owned by the Prime Minister. Like Chequers, it is a public property which is leased free of charge to the incumbent PM for the duration of his/her term of office, as part of the terms and conditions of office. Therefore, IMHO, the above analagy does not hold water.
 

SuspectUsual

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The latest apology is a joke - at fave balue it is apologising only for the timing, not the parties themselves. You’d think given this stuff is lawyered to the hilt they’d maybe get the phrasing right.

And now we have Liz Truss saying “now it is time to move on”, as if the passing of three days suddenly means it’s all forgiven and forgotten. Typically tone deaf for her.
 

Eyersey468

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The latest apology is a joke - at fave balue it is apologising only for the timing, not the parties themselves. You’d think given this stuff is lawyered to the hilt they’d maybe get the phrasing right.

And now we have Liz Truss saying “now it is time to move on”, as if the passing of three days suddenly means it’s all forgiven and forgotten. Typically tone deaf for her.
I agree it's no apology at all. I will never forgive them for it.
 

greyman42

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At that point Starmer, or whoever is in charge of the Labour party by then, will be in with a real chance as Covid will be off the agenda I suspect and the main critique of Labour, i.e. possible support of over-harsh restrictions, will no longer be a consideration.
I will not forget Labours support of over-harsh restrictions and they will not be getting my vote.
 

bramling

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I agree it's no apology at all. I will never forgive them for it.

The apologies have all been of the worst sorts.

Either,

“I’m sorry, but” (in other words, not sorry at all)

or

“I’m sorry you feel this way” (in other words it’s everyone else that’s wrong).

It’s simply not good enough.
 

nw1

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The latest apology is a joke - at fave balue it is apologising only for the timing, not the parties themselves. You’d think given this stuff is lawyered to the hilt they’d maybe get the phrasing right.

And now we have Liz Truss saying “now it is time to move on”, as if the passing of three days suddenly means it’s all forgiven and forgotten. Typically tone deaf for her.

Surely Truss wants the top job? It's not in her interest to 'move on', but perhaps she's just being devious, pretending to support Johnson before figuratively stabbing him in the back.
 

bramling

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Surely Truss wants the top job? It's not in her interest to 'move on', but perhaps she's just being devious, pretending to support Johnson before figuratively stabbing him in the back.

Remember the old golden rule, he who twists the knife doesn't get the prize. Heseltine and Portillo learned that lesson, and indeed to some extent it's why Johnson backed off after Cameron resigned.

The potential replacements will all be being *very* careful, they have to tread a very fine line indeed between toeing the official line but not allowing themselves to be tainted. Notice how Sunak has been keeping a low profile recently.

Ditching Johnson isn't going to be something which happens overnight, unless of course he chooses to resign (which still appears to be an unlikely prospect, for the time being at least). If Brady gets the required number of signatures then that's still only the first stage of the process, and with the current lot of MPs I would say it's still quite possible Johnson could survive the contest; the last parliament would have been a different matter perhaps. I think what's more likely is we continue the current drip-drip-drip, similar to how things went with Major in the 1990s, and what will perhaps finally do it will be continuing poor polls, and by-election disasters, and of course the local elections in May. Meanwhile there will continue to be nerves from within the party as to whether he's fit to lead into the next election, and of course to add to that there's also the Uxbridge question. My personal view is that all these factors will, at some point, bubble over to the point that his position is untenable. I'd say if there was a palatable replacement in waiting or if Labour were performing better then we'd have been at this point already, these are perhaps the two things which are saving him - for now.
 
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brad465

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I've seen many pictures circulating around Twitter of a large number of protestors dressed as Boris Johnson outside Downing Street, reportedly chanting "My name is Boris and this is a work event". This user appears to be the mastermind:


We hired 100 Boris Johnson’s and threw a party outside Downing Street… Main channel is BACK early next week.

1642173027225.png1642173032230.png
 

greyman42

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I've seen many pictures circulating around Twitter of a large number of protestors dressed as Boris Johnson outside Downing Street, reportedly chanting "My name is Boris and this is a work event".
I assume that they all got the day off work to stage this protest?
 

GusB

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I assume that they all got the day off work to stage this protest?
You've also made the ridiculous assumption that the people in attendance work Monday to Friday, nine to five and that they need a day off in order to attend. :rolleyes:
 
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