CrossCountry Voyager Refreshment *Purely Speculation*

[NoOnesFool]

CrossCountry Voyagers are a success of the modern railway. Their interiors and unique appearance has proven popular and driven the increase in passenger demand. However, after 20 years of use, I wonder if perhaps they are due an image refresh. The interiors are of the same style in Standard Class and partially in First Class as when they were introduced in 2002. I might add that this is the now defunct Virgin Trains style. This is purely speculative discussion but do you think these magnificent trains are due a refreshed image? Perhaps the carpets, interior and exterior paint could be given a 2022 style Refreshment. The oak wood effect was great for many years I'm sure, but do you think the time has come for a more current design? I know that the franchise operator could possibly* be changed soon, but I wonder if a franchise specific style could be established, a set colour scheme that stays the same regardless of the operating company. I believe Northern and LNER have a similar method of style. Perhaps the toilet smell could be addressed, I wonder if the engineering team could move the toilet to the other side of the cubicle, thus moving it away from the heating and air conditioning. I don't think this would alter the crash worthiness of the body structure, perhaps you know differently...? Of course, these trains offer a pleasant journey overall, I just wonder if the passenger experience might be improved by giving them their own brand, as opposed to the 2002 Virgin one. Let us know your thoughts by voting in the poll and commenting below!

*Speculation only

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the toilet smell could be addressed, I wonder if the engineering team could move the toilet to the other side of the cubicle, thus moving it away from the heating and air conditioning.

That is very unlikely as the exhaust arrangements would need to be changed to change the shape of the cubicle. Is there room to move the necessary pipework? Could a wheelchair still have the right amount of space?

The interiors are of the same style in Standard Class and partially in First Class as when they were introduced in 2002.

I'm sure the seat covers have been replaced numerous times in that period. There is no chance the originals would still be in tact. Maintaining broadly the same image has led to less waste of replacing interiors purely for the sake of image.

Maybe something will have to be done but the interior decor isn't that off-putting.

I wonder if a franchise specific style could be established, a set colour scheme that stays the same regardless of the operating company.

The Arriva branding isn't particularly prominent so the XC image might remain broadly unchanged regardless of the operating company.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I'm sure the seat covers have been replaced numerous times in that period. There is no chance the originals would still be in tact. Maintaining broadly the same image has led to less waste of replacing interiors purely for the sake of image.

Thanks, I know the seat covers and carpets were replaced around 9 years ago, they used the same design then, I wonder if perhaps now might be the time for a new design. Interesting thoughts though, I guess their space age style is timeless to some!

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The Arriva branding isn't particularly prominent so the XC image might remain broadly unchanged regardless of the operating company.

I suppose it would be nice from a nostalgia point of view to retain the red roofs and claret interior walls. They are certainly calming, and the lack of LED lighting is a positive for me!

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks, I know the seat covers and carpets were replaced around 9 years ago, they used the same design then, I wonder if perhaps now might be the time for a new design. Interesting thoughts though, I guess their space age style is timeless to some!

I suppose it would be nice from a nostalgia point of view to retain the red roofs and claret interior walls. They are certainly calming, and the lack of LED lighting is a positive for me!

Don't get me wrong. There are some big decisions to make about both the Voyagers and the XC operation as a whole but I am not sure that now is the right time to be making those decisions. The problem seems to be that the design features of the Voyagers are fairly much 'locked in' by the way they were originally specified - eg how the 'shop' ended up as a luggage rack because there wasn't anything else that could be done with the area.

 

[skyhigh]

CrossCountry Voyagers are a success of the modern railway

Too short, not enough of them, poor utilisation of space and smelly...?

In my opinion as long as the interior is in good condition (which they mostly seem to be to me) the style doesn't really matter to me. I don't think it matters that they're still the same style that Virgin left them with.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Too short, not enough of them, poor utilisation of space and smelly...?

In my opinion as long as the interior is in good condition (which they mostly seem to be to me) the style doesn't really matter to me. I don't think it matters that they're still the same style that Virgin left them with.

The First Class does still have a luxurious feel for sure. Arriva had a great idea with introducing travelling cleaners to keep them looking tidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The First Class does still have a luxurious feel for sure. Arriva had a great idea with introducing travelling cleaners to keep them looking tidy.

They do share the same seats as the Pendolino, and the 1st ones are really very good.

 

[David Goddard]

Love them or loathe them, the Voyagers are here to stay for at least another decade, and if they are looking tired then yes they will need a refresh.
Avanti have now refreshed their Voyagers and they look pretty good, still a sense of the original Virgin style interior but as long as it looks modern and clean then thats fine.
Its widely speculated that the Avanti 221s will join their sisters at Cross Country when they are displaced by the new bi-mode trains, and so it would be a natural progression for Cross Country's fleet to follow a similar process when the time is right. The West Coast 221 interior hardly shouts out "Avanti" so would be perfectly acceptable for use on Cross Country, and so makes sense for the other sets to follow suit.

 

[greatvoyager]

Love them or loathe them, the Voyagers are here to stay for at least another decade, and if they are looking tired then yes they will need a refresh.
Avanti have now refreshed their Voyagers and they look pretty good, still a sense of the original Virgin style interior but as long as it looks modern and clean then thats fine.
Its widely speculated that the Avanti 221s will join their sisters at Cross Country when they are displaced by the new bi-mode trains, and so it would be a natural progression for Cross Country's fleet to follow a similar process when the time is right. The West Coast 221 interior hardly shouts out "Avanti" so would be perfectly acceptable for use on Cross Country, and so makes sense for the other sets to follow suit.

I second this completely, particularly as the refresh on Avanti has made them look very smart, without doing anything too drastic.

 

[Wynd]

Refresh being the operative word.

Perhaps someone might enlighten me as to why they would be tarted up as opposed to outright scrapped and replaced with something fit for purpose.

 

[XAM2175]

They absolutely do need a thorough cleaning and a tasteful refurbishment wouldn't go astray either.

If it were to be reasonably certain that they had a good decade or so left in service I'd also suggest that they:

1. Investigate replacing several of the universal lavatories with smaller ones, now that the PRM TSI clearly doesn't require that many be provided; and
2. Replace the Pendolino seats in second class with models with thinner backs, and reconfigure the seating layout to provide a few more table groups. This will improve legroom and also make the saloon feel a bit more open and spacious; and
3. Clean all the windows, and fix all the ones with broken seals.

 

[quantinghome]

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

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Or failing that take the interiors back to the metal and completely refit, as GNER did with their Mark 3 and 4 carriages in Project Mallard.

 

[greyman42]

Refresh being the operative word.

Perhaps someone might enlighten me as to why they would be tarted up as opposed to outright scrapped and replaced with something fit for purpose.

I used them a fair bit during lockdown and when they are fairly empty and you can pick your seat, they are actually a decent train.

 

[Wynd]

I used them a fair bit during lockdown and when they are fairly empty and you can pick your seat, they are actually a decent train.

Try them on a summer bank holiday weekend. Its revolting.

 

[Senex]

Try them on a summer bank holiday weekend. Its revolting.

But then so is most modern rolling-stock. The problem with the Voyagers has always been inadequate accommodation through trying to cram as many seats as possible plus the facilities that had come to be expected of InterCity plus a whole host of gigantic lavatory-spaces into too few coaches. Perhaps if the original idea of having the non-tilt part of the fleet as loco-hauled stock had been followed .... In terms of performance, the Voyagers do exactly what they were designed to do — except for holding comfortably all the people who were attracted to the enhanced service. With their high acceleration they minimise the time-penalty of frequent stops and restriction-plagued routes, and with the 125-mph top speed they can fit in happily on the ECML. But are there any routes away from XC they could sensibly go to, except perhaps for TP — but then that is now to be electrified throughout (we hope)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then so is most modern rolling-stock.

Is it? Ignoring for the moment the Fainsa Sophia and its Marmite nature, the on-board environment on 80x, Mk5 coaches, 397s and 180s is markedly better, and 222s are slightly better, e.g. in having a more usable size/shape of overhead luggage rack.

I am not sure 4 Voyager coaches with a 67 on the end would have been considerably better than without. I don't find them excessively noisy anyway - most of the flaws relate to other things - toilets, layout, small luggage racks, unreliable reservation displays etc.

 

[Senex]

Is it? Ignoring for the moment the Fainsa Sophia and its Marmite nature, the on-board environment on 80x, Mk5 coaches, 397s and 180s is markedly better, and 222s are slightly better, e.g. in having a more usable size/shape of overhead luggage rack.

I am not sure 4 Voyager coaches with a 67 on the end would have been considerably better than without. I don't find them excessively noisy anyway - most of the flaws relate to other things - toilets, layout, small luggage racks, unreliable reservation displays etc.

I think the modern first class is pretty good save for the failure to line up seats and windows (and the whole 220-series is poor on this, with Voyagers especially bad). It's standard class where I think things feel so much more cramped and as a passenger you feel stuffed in without even enough knee or elbow space — and generally with a pretty poor view out — and on the overcrowded trains there never seem to be enough (working) toilets. On the mechanical side, I'm no great lover of any DMUs with their underfloor engines, but amongst them all the Bombardier 220 series and the Siemens 185s have always impressed me with their performance.

I don't think a 67 on 4 Voyager coaches would have been significantly better than a Voyager, but as I understand it, the performance specification didn't lay down any 4-coach requirement, let alone a requirement that the coaches be the same as those to be used in the tilters.

As to the noise question, I think that's much worse externally than internally in any case. Try attempting to listen to change-of-platform notifications on Sheffield station when you have two or three 220-types in the station. Or ask the citizens of Scarborough about iding 67s. Is such a thing as a genuinely quiet high-performance diesel possible at all, I wonder?

 

[D6130]

Or ask the citizens of Scarborough about iding 67s.

Err....68s at Scarborough!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is such a thing as a genuinely quiet high-performance diesel possible at all, I wonder?

The answer to that is to stop idling the things, and instead shut them down whenever they are not moving. One engine would be plenty enough to keep the lights on, and a shore supply even better. DB have shut down diesel engines immediately on arrival since the 1990s or earlier, we are way behind.

If the railway won't sort that out itself, it needs legislating.

 

[Wynd]

Is such a thing as a genuinely quiet high-performance diesel possible at all, I wonder?

Azumas seem pretty quiet.

 

[fgwrich]

That is very unlikely as the exhaust arrangements would need to be changed to change the shape of the cubicle. Is there room to move the necessary pipework? Could a wheelchair still have the right amount of space?

It can be done - Virgin / Bombardier surprisingly managed to fix this on their West Coast sets, and I think, put out a bit of a fanfare about this during their reconfiguration and refresh.

One feature that would be nice to see the back of is the cream 'cigarette stain' ceilings. Smart cool white lighting and ceilings please. As well as a repaint of the rather tired and bashed vestibules.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I don't think a 67 on 4 Voyager coaches would have been significantly better than a Voyager, but as I understand it, the performance specification didn't lay down any 4-coach requirement, let alone a requirement that the coaches be the same as those to be used in the tilters.

This is something I'm very interested in. Admin are welcome to move this to a separate thread if they see fit. As I understand it, the Class 220s were originally planned to be locohauled coaching stock, bound for former MK2 & Class 47 worked routes. The Class 47 was a locomotive and MK2s were coaching stock, that were built before HST coaches, these ran on the CrossCountry franchise up until around 2002-3 and had no rear loco or DBSO!

I wonder if aesthetics were the sole reason that Virgin/SRA decided to introduce 220s instead of loco hauled units. I am under the impression the decision for a whole Voyager fleet was made late in the day in 1998, although I welcome corrections on this!

Was it originally locohauled MK2 on the Poole/Southampton/Reading - Newcastles and the Virgin Challenger HST on the Penzance-Aberdeen (and intermediate services) services? I seem to recall Loco MK2s running through Leeds, which I always assumed was for Cornish/Devonian to Scotland services.

 

[swt_passenger]

It can be done - Virgin / Bombardier surprisingly managed to fix this on their West Coast sets, and I think, put out a bit of a fanfare about this during their reconfiguration and refresh.

One feature that would be nice to see the back of is the cream 'cigarette stain' ceilings. Smart cool white lighting and ceilings please. As well as a repaint of the rather tired and bashed vestibules.

As I suggested in a thread a couple of years back, the ceilings must have been modelled to look like a downmarket smokers pub with no ashtrays…

 

[Nova1]

The refurbed Avanti West Coast Voyagers are very good.

 

[NoOnesFool]

As I suggested in a thread a couple of years back, the ceilings must have been modelled to look like a downmarket smokers pub with no ashtrays…

They must have been very stylish when first introduced, but I completely agree that they now conjur up an image of a smoking room.

Personally, I'd like to see them painted over with silver or perhaps the CrossCountry claret colour and the rest of the ceiling and walls painted bright white but with the original warm coloured light bulbs.

The Class 220 and 221 are great units. If CrossCountry gave them a little more TLC then they could be amazing. I have to say the purple vestibule ceiling reminds me of a McDonald's restaurant circa 2005! Perhaps if the vestibule wall panels were painted white instead of silver and the ceilings painted dark grey, it would prove a marked improvement. I must say the vestibule carpets have held up splendidly since they were fitted 9 or so years ago.

 

[quantinghome]

They must have been very stylish when first introduced, but I completely agree that they now conjur up an image of a smoking room.

Personally, I'd like to see them painted over with silver or perhaps the CrossCountry claret colour and the rest of the ceiling and walls painted bright white but with the original warm coloured light bulbs.

The Class 220 and 221 are great units. If CrossCountry gave them a little more TLC then they could be amazing. I have to say the purple vestibule ceiling reminds me of a McDonald's restaurant circa 2005! Perhaps if the vestibule wall panels were painted white instead of silver and the ceilings painted dark grey, it would prove a marked improvement. I must say the vestibule carpets have held up splendidly since they were fitted 9 or so years ago.

They really weren't. Cheap and nasty was the verdict at the time - very Virgin brand. The impracticalities of the internal layout were immediately obvious. The trains managed the rare feat of having comparatively few seats per coach, yet simultaneously being very cramped and having virtually no useable luggage space. They're like a tardis in reverse.

Individual reading lights and window blinds were welcome additions. Innovations like the on-train audio entertainment were quickly dispensed with.

Mechanically, the trains seem to be OK. The amount of diesel power means they accelerate quickly compared to previous generations of diesel. But the claim that the trains would be as quiet as loco-hauled was quickly found not to be the case. The tilting function on the 221s was an expensive failure and abandoned.

Personally, I find them OK if not heavily loaded. Unfortunately that is rarely the case.

Also no train should smell of wee. That's a fairly basic requirement in my view.

However, provided the underlying mechanicals are still in good order, there's nothing that can't be solved by taking the interior back to the bare metal shell and doing a complete refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mechanically, the trains seem to be OK. The amount of diesel power means they accelerate quickly compared to previous generations of diesel. But the claim that the trains would be as quiet as loco-hauled was quickly found not to be the case. The tilting function on the 221s was an expensive failure and abandoned.

It's still used on the Avanti sets and works fine. It just makes them a bit heavy and is an additional maintenance overhead for XC who operate on hardly any sections of line where it is relevant.

However, provided the underlying mechanicals are still in good order, there's nothing that can't be solved by taking the interior back to the bare metal shell and doing a complete refurb.

Even the "Coach D" layout on Avanti shows that they can be reasonably pleasant if you will take the capacity hit.

 

[quantinghome]

It's still used on the Avanti sets and works fine. It just makes them a bit heavy and is an additional maintenance overhead for XC who operate on hardly any sections of line where it is relevant.

It may work technically but it was basically useless on the XC network. Presumably Virgin were planning to use it more extensively.

Even the "Coach D" layout on Avanti shows that they can be reasonably pleasant if you will take the capacity hit.

Indeed - and what a hit. 52 seats. An old-style Mark 3 carriage was the same 23m length yet had 76 seats (not all table seats, but decently spaced nonetheless).

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed - and what a hit. 52 seats. An old-style Mark 3 carriage was the same 23m length yet had 76 seats (not all table seats, but decently spaced nonetheless).

To be fair, an equivalently laid out Mark 3 carriage only had 72 seats (and 64 if the seats are aligned to the windows). The Voyager carriage we are discussing has the shop as well (although you will point out that the Mark 3s had two toilets).

 

[greatvoyager]

It may work technically but it was basically useless on the XC network. Presumably Virgin were planning to use it more extensively.

Birmingham-Scotland via WCML used to be part of XC services before 2007, and units were used interchangeably on the two franchises so tilt probably was more use back then.