8-car Class 700 on Peterborough to Horsham service

[Fincra5]

It may be the case that 8 vice 12 is rarer *now*, but it wasn’t before March 2020. At the moment there’s the luxury of a number of 12-car peak services not running, in particular many of those to Littlehampton or East Grinstead.

As regards Welwyn, it takes 15 mins to get from Belle Isle to Blackfriars. With a roughly 15 minute turnaround booked in the normal timetable, this puts each train onto its opposing path the other side of the river.

Meanwhile, here is the math:

As per the abortive May 2020 timetable:
6x Blackfriars - Sevenoaks 700/0 diagrams, TB427, TB430, TB433, TB434, TB435, TB443.
11x GN 700/0 diagrams, TB445, TB446, TB447, TB448, TB449, TB450, TB451, TB452, TB453, TB454, TB455.
Of the 11x GN diagrams, TB447 and TB454 stabled midday at Hornsey, TB452 stabled midday at Welwyn CS. This makes the total number of units for the Welwyn peak extras equal 3x.

This gives 6x units for Blackfriars - Sevenoaks, 3x units for King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City, and 8x units for King's Cross - Cambridge. Total - 17x.


If we now take a typical pair of Welwyn Garden City - King's Cross and Blackfriars - Sevenoaks services (helpfully they even keep a similar reporting number either side of the Thames):
2Y05 0532 Welwyn Garden City - King's Cross (arr 0606)
9Y05 0616 Blackfriars - Sevenoaks (arr 0727)
9Y10 0745 Sevenoaks - Blackfriars (arr 0859)
2Y10 0906 King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City (arr 0942)
This gives a complete Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City rounder of 4 hrs 30 mins including turnrounds.

As can be seen, were the service to be all day then the 0942 arrival would then form a hypothetical 1002 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks. To spell it out:
0532 - diagram 1
0602 - diagram 2
0632 - diagram 3
0702 - diagram 4
0732 - diagram 5
0802 - diagram 6
0832 - diagram 7
0902 - diagram 8
0932 - diagram 9
1002 - diagram 1 ... and so on.

Mysteriously enough, this adds up to 9x diagrams, the same as 3x King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City + 6x Blackfriars - Sevenoaks.

Meanwhile, to confirm the remaining King's Cross - Cambridge service makes 8x units:
2C20 1121 King's Cross - Cambridge (arr 1254)
2C37 1327 Cambridge - King's Cross (arr 1450)- forms 2C36 1521 King's Cross - Cambridge

1121 - diagram 1
1151 - diagram 2
1221 - diagram 3
1251 - diagram 4
1321 - diagram 5
1351 - diagram 6
1421 - diagram 7
1451 - diagram 8
1521 - diagram 1 ... and so on..

As stated above, this adds up to 8x diagrams.

Add together 9x for Welwyn Garden City-Sevenoaks and 8x for King's Cross-Cambridge, and this totals up to...

Total - 17x; the same total as 6x Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks, 8x King's Cross - Cambridge and 3x King's Cross - Welwyn Garden City.


For interest, in the same timetable, 55/60 700/0 were diagrammed running duties each day, versus 51/55 700/1. Two interesting take-aways from that, firstly the 700/1s have a slightly more demanding utilisation, and secondly where are any units for Cambridge-Maidstone going to come from?

Good Maths However, the Sevenoaks - Welwyn GC doesn't replace the Kings Cross - Cambridge Stoppers.(AFAIK)

None of this however, adds up to needing more 12/700s versus the current amount. Also the Timetable is slighty different to that of March 2020...

I doubt the Cambridge - Maidstone would ever start but likely to be 8 cars, as a replacement for the Kings Cross - Cambridge Stoppers.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Not sure if this falls in to any of rare, very rare or riotously rare - 8-car 700029 is on this evening's 1624 Peterborough to Horsham service.

It's the first time I've seen a RLU on such a service. I know RLU's on Bedford to Gatwick / Brighton services are a daily occurrence, and I know they also worked some King's Cross to Peterborough services during the chaos of 2018 on the GN, but this is the first time I've seen one on a Peterborough - Horsham.

Does anybody know how unusual today's working is?

Thanks.

What's an RLU?

Edit - found in post #20 the answer.

 

[bramling]

Good Maths However, the Sevenoaks - Welwyn GC doesn't replace the Kings Cross - Cambridge Stoppers.(AFAIK)

Indeed. So with Welwyn-KX and Blackfriars-Sevenoaks it’s 8+3+6=17 or with Welwyn-Sevenoaks it’s 8+9=17. So no increase in 700/0 requirements over May 2020.

None of this however, adds up to needing more 12/700s versus the current amount. Also the Timetable is slighty different to that of March 2020...

That depends if one wants to eliminate 700/0 operation from Bedford-Gatwick/Brighton. There don’t appear to be enough 700/1s to achieve that. Not based on pre-Covid timetables at any rate.

The original May 2020 timetable was meant to eliminate 700/0s from Cambridge-Brighton, there previously being one SX diagram. The Covid timetables did that instead, however 8-cars do still appear.

I doubt the Cambridge - Maidstone would ever start but likely to be 8 cars, as a replacement for the Kings Cross - Cambridge Stoppers.

I can’t see how it can start, as it would appear Maidstone’s 700s are employed serving Rainham instead. It might be possible to release a couple of 700/0s by pushing up 700/1 use above 51/55, but to free up the 4 or so 700/0 required for Maidstone it would be getting to something like 57/60 and 53/55, based on pre-Covid timetables at least. I’d suggest this is too tight with reliability as it’s been.

Worth re-iterating that with Maidstone unlikely to happen, KX-Cambridge doesn’t need to be 700 at all. That’s 8x 700/0 diagrams, or to put it another way, 8x 700/0s that didn’t need to be built!

With 8-cars continuing to be diagrammed on otherwise 12-car routes, I’d say this indicates too many 700/0 and insufficient 700/1.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I was on a 8 car unit yesterday, whether replacement or planned I can’t tell. Perhaps, and only perhaps, so that, as Norwood Junction stopper, it did not leave any carriages off the end. Quite full, fortunately the previous service had been a few minutes late so this one’s shorter formation did not affect one’s ability to get a seat.

 

[jopsuk]

Worth re-iterating that with Maidstone unlikely to happen, KX-Cambridge doesn’t need to be 700 at all. That’s 8x 700/0 diagrams, or to put it another way, 8x 700/0s that didn’t need to be built!

if there's 8x700/0 on the Cambridge-Kings Cross stopper, then there at least needs to be something else to run that. There's not enough 387s in the GN fleet (or 379s if some of the rumours are more than just enthusiast "it would make sense" speculation).

 

[bramling]

if there's 8x700/0 on the Cambridge-Kings Cross stopper, then there at least needs to be something else to run that. There's not enough 387s in the GN fleet (or 379s if some of the rumours are more than just enthusiast "it would make sense" speculation).

379 to GN is slightly more than a rumour, though I don’t think it’s confirmed for definite yet.

As regards those 8x 700/0s. It does demonstrate the inherent inflexibility of the 700 concept. Essentially with plans having changed a little from when the fleet was procured (add Rainham, remove Tattenham Corner, Caterham and Maidstone) it’s a case of having had to make things fit.

As I’ve said before, pre Covid GN had 21x 365 for (IIRC) 17x diagrams. Were a further 16x diagrams added to cover for the Cambridge 700/0s, that would have given 33x diagrams for the 40-strong 365 fleet. Almost a perfect fit, subject to finding a solution for the short platforms between Royston and Cambridge.

 

[Fincra5]

379 to GN is slightly more than a rumour, though I don’t think it’s confirmed for definite yet.

As regards those 8x 700/0s. It does demonstrate the inherent inflexibility of the 700 concept. Essentially with plans having changed a little from when the fleet was procured (add Rainham, remove Tattenham Corner, Caterham and Maidstone) it’s a case of having had to make things fit.

As I’ve said before, pre Covid GN had 21x 365 for (IIRC) 17x diagrams. Were a further 16x diagrams added to cover for the Cambridge 700/0s, that would have given 33x diagrams for the 40-strong 365 fleet. Almost a perfect fit, subject to finding a solution for the short platforms between Royston and Cambridge.

379s will be making their way to GN, in Time.

I've heard of 387/3s from C2C, eventually, to work Peak Additionals that 365s would have.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Indeed. So with Welwyn-KX and Blackfriars-Sevenoaks it’s 8+3+6=17 or with Welwyn-Sevenoaks it’s 8+9=17. So no increase in 700/0 requirements over May 2020.



That depends if one wants to eliminate 700/0 operation from Bedford-Gatwick/Brighton. There don’t appear to be enough 700/1s to achieve that. Not based on pre-Covid timetables at any rate.

The original May 2020 timetable was meant to eliminate 700/0s from Cambridge-Brighton, there previously being one SX diagram. The Covid timetables did that instead, however 8-cars do still appear.



I can’t see how it can start, as it would appear Maidstone’s 700s are employed serving Rainham instead. It might be possible to release a couple of 700/0s by pushing up 700/1 use above 51/55, but to free up the 4 or so 700/0 required for Maidstone it would be getting to something like 57/60 and 53/55, based on pre-Covid timetables at least. I’d suggest this is too tight with reliability as it’s been.

Worth re-iterating that with Maidstone unlikely to happen, KX-Cambridge doesn’t need to be 700 at all. That’s 8x 700/0 diagrams, or to put it another way, 8x 700/0s that didn’t need to be built!

With 8-cars continuing to be diagrammed on otherwise 12-car routes, I’d say this indicates too many 700/0 and insufficient 700/1.

Probably the last thing on people's minds right now but is the Welwyn Sevenoaks Service still going ahead in May? i read elsewhere the the ECML changes were postponed but unsure if this bit might going ahead as a standalone might still happen give that as described it's really implementing the orignal plan rather than change per se....

 

[ungreat]

8 vice 12 is not that uncommon. Can catch you out going through the core though..!!

 

[DanNCL]

Probably the last thing on people's minds right now but is the Welwyn Sevenoaks Service still going ahead in May? i read elsewhere the the ECML changes were postponed but unsure if this bit might going ahead as a standalone might still happen give that as described it's really implementing the orignal plan rather than change per se....

That'll depend on if the pathing of it was dependent on the other ECML changes going ahead. The ECML changes were "deferred" largely down to opposition to the proposals for services at Retford and North of York, so not inconceivable to think they might have tried to incorporate the new Thameslink service, but far from guaranteed that they will have done either.

 

[Verulamius]

In terms of swapping between the TL and GN side, in the morning peak some Horshams head west to Bedford rather than Peterborough. That presumably gives some flexibility?

 

[bramling]

That'll depend on if the pathing of it was dependent on the other ECML changes going ahead. The ECML changes were "deferred" largely down to opposition to the proposals for services at Retford and North of York, so not inconceivable to think they might have tried to incorporate the new Thameslink service, but far from guaranteed that they will have done either.

Welwyn - Sevenoaks is all catered for in the timetable, and has been since May 18. Indeed ISTR one WTT actually had the services in there.

As to whether it happens from May, that will depend on GTR and whether all the relevant training is complete.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2022 ==

In terms of swapping between the TL and GN side, in the morning peak some Horshams head west to Bedford rather than Peterborough. That presumably gives some flexibility?

It is a way of getting units on and off the GN side, otherwise the Horsham - Peterborough units are quite captive, the bulk of the units stabling at Peterborough Spital or Horsham Field sidings, which locks them onto the same service group the following day.