Railway definition of 'commuting'

[Fawkes Cat]

Is the use of a H M Forces Railcard for this type of journey allowed? From the conditions of issue:

7. The Railcard can only be used for non-duty (leisure) travel only. Commuting between home and place of duty, work or education is not available.

From what I understand, this journey was a commute from a place of duty/education to home - so the Railcard discount should not have been applied in the first place. Not sure how commonly TOC's prosecute for this though (I assume highly unlikely).

I think the “commuting restriction” applies to the traditional meaning of commuting, ie regular daily travel, the sort of thing you’d often use a season for.

Going back to a remote home address, eg the parents, for a weekend during a course, or a main leave period, isn’t commuting. (Despite many people referring to the weekly commute, I think the word is being misused in that context.)

I take a different view. The railcard is for leisure use; a journey to/from a place of work is not a leisure use. Whether that travel is daily, weekly or irregular is, I suspect, irrelevant. Indeed it could be a one-off journey.

I've started a separate thread here as this may be a point of general interest but of no particular help to the OP in the original thread.

Do we have an agreed railway definition of 'commuting'? If not, does the Cambridge definition (the first one to pop up when I Google 'definition commuting') help at all:

the activity of travelling regularly between work and home:

I note the presence of the word regularly. So does this mean that a one time trip to a place of work isn't commuting?

 

[py_megapixel]

The two schoolboy errors - double "only" and the fact that "not available" appears to refer to the wrong thing (it's not the travel that isn't available - it's the railcard discount!) - suggest that you have already given this more thought than whoever wrote that condition to start with...

 

[RY3365]

Interestingly whilst the official terms and conditions simply refer to commuting, the national rail website refers to a “regular travel”:

Discover Savings with Railcards | National Rail

Unlock the Best of British Rail Travel with National Railcards. Discover Exclusive Discounts, Seamless Booking, and Unforgettable Journeys. Embrace the Joy of Exploring.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[6Gman]

The two schoolboy errors - double "only" and the fact that "not available" appears to refer to the wrong thing (it's not the travel that isn't available - it's the railcard discount!) - suggest that you have already given this more thought than whoever wrote that condition to start with...

The condition is poorly written as though the only possible options are leisure travel and commuting.

 

[RY3365]

The two schoolboy errors - double "only" and the fact that "not available" appears to refer to the wrong thing (it's not the travel that isn't available - it's the railcard discount!) - suggest that you have already given this more thought than whoever wrote that condition to start with...

Good spot! It is essentially saying that you can never return home!

 

[6Gman]

Interestingly whilst the official terms and conditions simply refer to commuting, the national rail website refers to a “regular travel”:

Discover Savings with Railcards | National Rail

Unlock the Best of British Rail Travel with National Railcards. Discover Exclusive Discounts, Seamless Booking, and Unforgettable Journeys. Embrace the Joy of Exploring.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

And that wording is even worse! It seems to say that irregular travel to work is eligible, but regular travel isn't.

So if you travel to work every Monday and Tuesday you can't use the railcard, but if it's irregular (Monday & Tuesday this week, only on Wednesday second week, Tuesday & Friday the third week) you can!

I don't think that's what it's meant to say, but it is what it says!

 

[swt_passenger]

How I used my Forces railcard when I had one, back in the early 80s.
I come from Newcastle, but I lived in my own house near Southampton, where my family lived. in 1980/81 I “worked“ on a ship based in Plymouth for 18 months or so. If the ship was in port I went “home” to Southampton at the weekend. This was not considered duty travel, and I definitely did not consider it “commuting”. Back then we also had a number of leave travel warrants, I think 4 per year, and a number of “separated service” travel warrants, 8 I think. So on some weekends or leave periods travel was paid for by warrant, but even that wasn’t considered duty travel. On any other weekends when I had no warrant to use, I used my railcard to discount the fare.

I take the view that simplistic definitions based on modern usage of “commuting” eg the so called weekly commute, do not really apply to forces leave travel.

 

[spyinthesky]

There should be no requirement for commuting for HM Forces. Home should be their duty station and other allowances/exceptions are given for those that do not live at the duty station.

 

[swt_passenger]

There should be no requirement for commuting for HM Forces. Home should be their duty station and other allowances/exceptions are given for those that do not live at the duty station.

That’s correct, if you live in private accommodation, or service accommodation that’s remote from the daily workplace, there are other daily travel allowances. If you travel for duty purposes there are means to pay in advance or refund afterwards.

The discussion seems to be about wrongly using the term commuting for optional travel to another address for short or long leave.

 

[py_megapixel]

And that wording is even worse! It seems to say that irregular travel to work is eligible, but regular travel isn't.
So if you travel to work every Monday and Tuesday you can't use the railcard, but if it's irregular (Monday & Tuesday this week, only on Wednesday second week, Tuesday & Friday the third week) you can!

That distinction is really strange. To me, "frequent" and "regular" have different meanings. Regular means recurring at the same intervals, for example on the same days of the week. Frequent means occurring often, but not necessarily at even intervals. So my understanding was that the appearance of Halley's Comet is regular and not frequent, while road traffic collisions are frequent but not regular.

However, it seems to have become increasingly common to use "regular" to mean "frequent", and indeed, some dictionaries now even include that as a definition, adding ambiguity in all kinds of places.

 

[Horizon22]

'Regularly' is a bit of a red-herring especially with WFH growing in prevalance and maybe only going into an office or place of work once/twice a week. It is still a consistent journey between the same two locations for the purpose of work, just less often.

 

[Haywain]

There should be no requirement for commuting for HM Forces. Home should be their duty station and other allowances/exceptions are given for those that do not live at the duty station.

That's not entirely true. There are service personnel who work in central London and live outside of London commuting on a daily basis.

 

[andrew749]

I might be totally wrong about this, but I wonder whether the restriction on use for 'commuting' is because there are no time restrictions (other than a minimum fare of £12 between 04:30 and 09:59).

 

[kristiang85]

That's not entirely true. There are service personnel who work in central London and live outside of London commuting on a daily basis.

I presume this is what the condition is aimed at (ie the office based MoD personnel) rather than those coming home from training periods or deployments.

 

[spyinthesky]

That's not entirely true. There are service personnel who work in central London and live outside of London commuting on a daily basis.

I used the word should as living outside the duty station area limits is a personal choice and may not attract some benefits. Those that are permitted to live away are generally of Officer status who certainly during my 28 years experience are the ones twisting the rules.
Some of these will benefit from other travel allowances.
All that said I never once came across anyone who was prevented from using their railcard for any journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

I presume this is what the condition is aimed at (ie the office based MoD personnel) rather than those coming home from training periods or deployments.

The condition explicitly says no duty travel, it does not just disbar commuting alone.

 

[spyinthesky]

The condition explicitly says no duty travel, it does not just disbar commuting alone.

Travelling to and from home to normal place of work is not duty travel.
If a MOD employee is required to travel from the duty station to another then the expenses are covered by other means ie a Rail Warrant or other means at public expense.
If a MOD employee is forced to live outside the boundary of their duty station (20 miles I think) travel costs are also covered by other expenses such as a mileage allowance. This is where the commuting rule would kick in so the use of the railcard in this example would break the conditions if used.

 

[robbeech]

I suppose it is possible that the existence of this thread may be a prompt to adjust the wording of the railcard so it is clearer what is and what isn’t allowed. It’s entirely possible that any current ambiguity will be removed which MAY result in people not being able to use the card for some things they have historically used it for.

 

[miklcct]

I suppose it is possible that the existence of this thread may be a prompt to adjust the wording of the railcard so it is clearer what is and what isn’t allowed. It’s entirely possible that any current ambiguity will be removed which MAY result in people not being able to use the card for some things they have historically used it for.

I believe that the HMRC has already defined what commuting is so that it can be directly referenced.

 

[matt_world2004]

I believe avanti west coast and GTR do 75% discounted tickets for tfl staff that can only be used for commuting.

I'm.quoting from memory but I believed that it defined commuting as travelling to a fixed place of work . Which would have if taken literally have excluded a lot of shift based operational staff

 

[Haywain]

I believe avanti west coast and GTR do 75% discounted tickets for tfl staff that can only be used for commuting.

I'm.quoting from memory but I believed that it defined commuting as travelling to a fixed place of work . Which would have if taken literally have excluded a lot of shift based operational staff

Applications for such season tickets are signed off by TfL, and are only for the National Rail journey.

 

[etr221]

The origin of the term 'commuter' (and hence it's derivatives) came from concept of 'commuting' (reducing) fares paid by regular travellers, by them buying a season ticket.
So my understanding would be that commuting covers regular journeys from normal home to normal place of work. Other 'home' to'work' journeys, where either or both are 'not normal', which are not regular, are - I would say - not 'commuting', but nor are they 'leisure'. And the other consideration is how long it might be before a place beomes 'normal' - I would suggest less than week - perhaps three days, when it becomes 'most' of a week.

I believe that the HMRC has already defined what commuting is so that it can be directly referenced.

I think HMRC's definition is based on distinguishing normal home-to-work journeys (not a tax deductable expense) from 'business' journeys made on behalf of employer (tax deductable).

 

[py_megapixel]

So my understanding would be that commuting covers regular journeys from normal home to normal place of work. Other 'home' to'work' journeys, where either or both are 'not normal', which are not regular, are - I would say - not 'commuting', but nor are they 'leisure'. And the other consideration is how long it might be before a place beomes 'normal' - I would suggest less than week - perhaps three days, when it becomes 'most' of a week.

Which meaning of "regular" are you using here? (See my post #10)

 

[Marton]

I think HMRC's definition is based on distinguishing normal home-to-work journeys (not a tax deductable expense) from 'business' journeys made on behalf of employer (tax deductable).

There are many complications and tax cases on commuting. The relevant material is at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ordinary-commuting-and-private-travel-490-chapter-3

the biggest complications seem to relate to multiple workplaces.

 

[AY1975]

How can they enforce this rule anyway?