Class 158 to 159 2006-07 conversion

[adrock1976]

While I am doing an audit of haulage requirements, I have noticed on the Class 158 Wikipedia page that 158800-801, 803-805, 807, 809, and 811 were the 8 158s sent for conversion.

Being as I cannot find 802, 806, 808, and 810 listed anywhere, were these the 4 158s that were split and used to make the above 8 into 3 car 159s?

 

[greatvoyager]

While I am doing an audit of haulage requirements, I have noticed on the Class 158 Wikipedia page that 158800-801, 803-805, 807, 809, and 811 were the 8 158s sent for conversion.

Being as I cannot find 802, 806, 808, and 810 listed anywhere, were these the 4 158s that were split and used to make the above 8 into 3 car 159s?

158798-814 were built as 3-car units.
158802/808 are now 2-car 158888 (SWR)/158889 (EMR).
158806/810 are with EMR as 2-car units.
Hope this helps.

 

[43096]

While I am doing an audit of haulage requirements, I have noticed on the Class 158 Wikipedia page that 158800-801, 803-805, 807, 809, and 811 were the 8 158s sent for conversion.

Being as I cannot find 802, 806, 808, and 810 listed anywhere, were these the 4 158s that were split and used to make the above 8 into 3 car 159s?

No. 158798-814 were “proper” 3 car units, and 159101-108 were taken from this batch so nothing needed splitting. 158806/810 are with EMR as two car sets. 158802/808, also as two car sets were renumbered 158888/889.

 

[adrock1976]

158798-814 were built as 3-car units.
158802/808 are now 2-car 158888 (SWR)/158889 (EMR).
158806/810 are with EMR as 2-car units.
Hope this helps.

No. 158798-814 were “proper” 3 car units, and 159101-108 were taken from this batch so nothing needed splitting. 158806/810 are with EMR as two car sets. 158802/808, also as two car sets were renumbered 158888/889.

Thanks both.

 

[JN114]

As a related tangent then - where are the Centre cars from 802/808/808/810?

 

[MCR247]

I believe the other proper 158 centre cars are with Northern (with one af GWR)

 

[greatvoyager]

As a related tangent then - where are the Centre cars from 802/808/808/810?

Centre cars from those four, as well as from 158799/812-814 currently reside in Northern 158752-759, although not in numerical order.

 

[45076]

While I am doing an audit of haulage requirements, I have noticed on the Class 158 Wikipedia page that 158800-801, 803-805, 807, 809, and 811 were the 8 158s sent for conversion.

Being as I cannot find 802, 806, 808, and 810 listed anywhere, were these the 4 158s that were split and used to make the above 8 into 3 car 159s?

this might help:

158800​		52800​	58717​		57800​		159101	REBUILT AS 159
158801​		52801​	58701​		57801​		159108	REBUILT AS 159
158802​		52802​	58702​		57802​		158888	REBUILT AS 158, CENTRE CAR IN 158755
158803​		52803​	58703​		57803​		159102	REBUILT AS 159
158804​		52804​	58704​		57804​		159103	REBUILT AS 159
158805​		52805​	58705​		57805​		159104	REBUILT AS 159
158806​		52806​	58706​		57806​			CENTRE CAR IS IN 158757
158807​		52807​	58707​		57807​		159105	REBUILT AS 159
158808​		52808​	58708​		57808​		158889	CENTRE CAR IS IN 158754
158809​		52809​	58709​		57809​		159106	REBUILT AS 159
158810​		52810​	58710​		57810​			CENTRE CAR IS IN 158753
158811​		52811​	58711​		57811​		159107	REBUILT AS 159
158812​	52812​		58712			57812​		CENTRE CAR IS IN 158756
158813​	52813​		58713			57813​		CENTRE CAR IS IN 158758.
158814​	52814​		58714			57814​	158890	CENTRE CAR IS IN 158759

 

[swt_passenger]

Historical question then, if I may…

Does anyone know if there was something odd going on when the original seventeen 3 cars were ordered or delivered?

I see from the oldest P5 book I have that in 2005 sets 158801 to 814 contained centre cars 58701-714, ie in a logical numerical order. But centre cars 58715-717 were then in 158798-800. There’s also a gap in the set numbers where sets 815-817 would have been? (That’s now explained see post#11.) Did something change with the total numbers required during build?

 

[43096]

Historical question then, if I may…

Does anyone know if there was something odd going on when the original seventeen 3 cars were ordered or delivered?

I see from the oldest P5 book I have that in 2005 sets 158801 to 814 contained centre cars 58701-714, ie in a logical numerical order. But centre cars 58715-717 were then in 158798-800. There’s also a gap in the set numbers where sets 815-817 would have been? Did something change with the total numbers required during build?

They were ordered in batches, with 114 sets in the first batch then further orders added. The 17 centre cars were ordered for Trans Pennine with the same spec as 158701-814 (i.e. Cummins 350hp engines), whereas 158815-862 had Perkins 350hp engines and 158863-872 (and 159001-022) having Cummins 400hp engines. So when the centre cars were delivered they went into Heaton based units 798-814: 815 upwards were Canton based and had different engines. 58701-714 went into sets 158801-814 presumably to make things easier with the last two digits being the same for all three cars, which left 58715-717 for 158798-800.

 

[JonathanH]

There’s also a gap in the set numbers where sets 815-817 would have been?

There isn't a gap. Those three got allocated to Wessex Trains when the Wales & West fleet was split then went to Northern. 818-841 went to Arriva Trains Wales.

Class 158 allocations all got a little complicated with the movements arising from the arrival of 170s and 185s.

 

[swt_passenger]

There isn't a gap. Those three got allocated to Wessex Trains when the Wales & West fleet was split then went to Northern. 818-841 went to Arriva Trains Wales.

Class 158 allocations all got a little complicated with the movements arising from the arrival of 170s and 185s.

Ah yes thanks, I’ve found them now, there’s a separate list of 158/0 further into the book, beyond a set of photos, which lists a few units formed into 3 car units made up of 3 driving cars.

So that’s read it all, see it, sorted…

 

[JonathanH]

ah yes, I’ve found them now, there’s a separate list of 158/0 further into the book, beyond a set of photos, which lists a few units formed into 3 car units made up of 3 driving cars.

So that’s read it all, see it, sorted…

That sounds like an out of date book! But yes, seemingly between about 2004 and 2006, 158964 and 158965 were formed of 158815, 158816 and 158817 with 158816 giving one carriage to each of the other two. These 3-cars were disbanded when the former TPE units arrived and the Perkins units were dispatched from the West.

 

[fgwrich]

Speaking of 158s, Would anybody happen to know when and why certain 158s left Scotland for TPE (now with SWR) - 158737 (880) / 742 (881) / 743 (882) / 744 (883) + 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750 (The latter now with FGW / GWR via Wessex and TPE).

 

[43096]

Speaking of 158s, Would anybody happen to know when and why certain 158s left Scotland for TPE (now with SWR) - 158737 (880) / 742 (881) / 743 (882) / 744 (883) + 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750 (The latter now with FGW / GWR via Wessex and TPE).

737 left Mar 2000
742 left Mar 2000
743 left Mar 2000
744 left Mar 2000
745 left Feb 2000
746 left Feb 2000
I think these were displaced as part of the Turbostar introduction. 737 was chosen rather than expected 741 as it had (from memory) non-standard/trial air conditioning equipment. Of course, ScotRail/Porterbrook later fitted Liebherr aircon to all 40 retained units, so it could have been retained and standardised at that point.

747-750 were not ScotRail units.

 

[D6975]

Speaking of 158s, Would anybody happen to know when and why certain 158s left Scotland for TPE (now with SWR) - 158737 (880) / 742 (881) / 743 (882) / 744 (883) + 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750 (The latter now with FGW / GWR via Wessex and TPE).

Because Scotrail had too many 150s and 158s, being displaced by 170s. The 158s initially went to Virgin and did the now deceased cross-country routes like like Portsmouth, then moved on and on - the usual cascading moves.

 

[JonathanH]

Speaking of 158s, Would anybody happen to know when and why certain 158s left Scotland for TPE (now with SWR) - 158737 (880) / 742 (881) / 743 (882) / 744 (883) + 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750 (The latter now with FGW / GWR via Wessex and TPE).

158747-158751 were never with Scotrail. They were released for CrossCountry by adjusting the Heaton / Neville Hill allocations prior to the split of North West and North East allocations within Regional Railways.

NW didn't have its own allocation of 158s as built but some of the NE units worked cyclic diagrams onto the North Wales coast. When the formal split happened, 158752-158759 went to Newton Heath but that was long after 158747-158751 went to InterCity.

158745/46 went straight from ScotRail to Wales & West. 158737/42-44 went to TPE. As already noted, the units were needed for additional capacity and Scotrail had had a delivery of 170s.

 

[fgwrich]

Thank you both for the answer. I'm surprised a handful of 158s were released first vice 150s though, but I presume it depended on what would offer the most capacity and were needed elsewhere than offloading a number of the sprinters (later released by batches of additional 170s by FSR).

I'd forgotten about 745/6 going straight from ScotRail to Wales and West - their nickname under W&W and Wessex of course being Donald and Douglas for many years, though some have slightly less politer nicknames these days.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm surprised a handful of 158s were released first vice 150s though, but I presume it depended on what would offer the most capacity and were needed elsewhere than offloading a number of the sprinters (later released

Not really surprising. The first 24 Scotrail 170s were all about heritage unit replacement but they directly replaced 158s. They went onto long distance services, cascading 158s to the Far North and shorter workings, displacing 156s to Glasgow to replace 101s and consolidating 150s in Edinburgh to replace 117s. Presumably, in April 2000, the view was that 158s could be released.

The next 170s then allowed more capacity on key express services displacing 158s.

ScotRail 150 replacement was then the third batch (170450-170461) with the 150s going to Cardiff.

 

[fgwrich]

737 left Mar 2000
742 left Mar 2000
743 left Mar 2000
744 left Mar 2000
745 left Feb 2000
746 left Feb 2000
I think these were displaced as part of the Turbostar introduction. 737 was chosen rather than expected 741 as it had (from memory) non-standard/trial air conditioning equipment. Of course, ScotRail/Porterbrook later fitted Liebherr aircon to all 40 retained units, so it could have been retained and standardised at that point.

747-750 were not ScotRail units.

Thanks - The non standard air con issue certainly sounds rather plausible. I've always wondered why 737 left while 741 remained, leaving the somewhat slightly odd gap with the remaining units at ScotRail.

 

[Neptune]

ScotRail 150 replacement was then the third batch (170450-170461) with the 150s going to Cardiff.

During the reshuffle of units around 1998 when Northern Spirit swapped 142’s for 150’s from Valley Lines they also received 150228 and 150245 from Scotrail. 245 moved on to Anglia in around 2001.

When the remaining 150’s moved from Scotrail to ATW (2004ish?) Northern took 150208 and 150284 (possibly one other too) on temporary loan. 284 was riddled with door faults if memory serves me correctly!