Advice required - forgotten railcard

[gray1404]

Shall await an update from you in due course.

 

[Robski]

I was travelling from the army training centre to my parents house

This might be slightly off topic, but is the use of a H M Forces Railcard for this type of journey allowed? From the conditions of issue:

7. The Railcard can only be used for non-duty (leisure) travel only. Commuting between home and place of duty, work or education is not available.

From what I understand, this journey was a commute from a place of duty/education to home - so the Railcard discount should not have been applied in the first place. Not sure how commonly TOC's prosecute for this though (I assume highly unlikely).

 

[swt_passenger]

This might be slightly off topic, but is the use of a H M Forces Railcard for this type of journey allowed? From the conditions of issue:

From what I understand, this journey was a commute from a place of duty/education to home - so the Railcard discount should not have been applied in the first place. Not sure how commonly TOC's prosecute for this though (I assume highly unlikely).

I think the “commuting restriction” applies to the traditional meaning of commuting, ie regular daily travel, the sort of thing you’d often use a season for.

Going back to a remote home address, eg the parents, for a weekend during a course, or a main leave period, isn’t commuting. (Despite many people referring to the weekly commute, I think the word is being misused in that context.)

 

[Robski]

I think the “commuting restriction” applies to the traditional meaning of commuting, ie regular daily travel, the sort of thing you’d often use a season for.

Going back to a remote home address, eg the parents, for a weekend during a course, or a main leave period, isn’t commuting. (Despite many people referring to the weekly commute, I think the word is being misused in that context.)

Ah, I see. I stand corrected.

 

[RPI]

Quoted from the Railcards website managed by RDG:

"What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?​

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge."

It would seem counter productive to deviate from that. GWR's own website states an additional fare should be paid to be refunded on production and certainly doesn't imply that the standard operating procedure is straight to MG11:

"If you forgot or mislaid your valid Railcard and were unable to produce it when requested but can produce it at a later date, get in touch with us within 28 days of your journey. We will arrange reimbursement of any additional charge incurred; for one claim in any 12 month period. We will need to see the Railcard, and all relevant journey tickets."

Sorry, I should have been clearer, the process of issuing an MG11 is if dealt with by an RPI, a Penalty Fare/Unpaid Fare Notice or TIR should be submitted by a Ticket Examiner/Gateline and same (minus the Penalty Fare) for guards, the reason being is that all of these options do not involve the customer being out of pocket at any point unless it turns out that they don't have a railcard.

 

[Horizon22]

Another reason I wish management would push the importance of endorsements to staff. I always work on the principle that if I'm contradicting something that is in writing, I also need to provide my statement in writing, unless the information I'm supplying is also publicly accessible to the customer - IE ticket acceptance information appearing on line for example.

Definitely an important factor, otherwise we get into the issue of "he said, she said", which is exactly what happened here. The action of the guard which although it seemed helpful to the OP at the time and that there would be no issue was actually rather unhelpful. I can imagine revenue protection get "the guard said it was fine" multiple times a day and is one of their top excuses. In a previous role, I used to ensure that the senior members of the TOC station team had a stamp or headed paper available to give an endorsement to give some element of "authority" to the next TOC / station when there was some sort of requirement for it (was probably only used a few times a month).

The guard was in the wrong for not following policy, but ultimately whilst Revenue Protection may appear a bit forceful (they're kinda like Traffic Wardens, not often are people fans!) they were simply following their process. It then goes beyond them to appeal to SWR with the railcard and pictire.

I think this will probably have a positive outcome as it's very rarely we see issues with HM Forces Railcards here and its normally very obvious when they're being used and the OP seems to have done all the right things.

 

[spyinthesky]

Ah, I see. I stand corrected.

If a Forces member is required to travel for duty a rail warrant is issued by the MOD which is then exchanged for valid travel. The duty traveller is not required to pay anything.
If travelling form duty station to (home) parents or anywhere else they so wish then the traveller pays for discounted travel with railcard. An Armed Forces home address is that of their Married Quarter address or Single living quarters in Barracks.

 

[island]

I think this will probably have a positive outcome as it's very rarely we see issues with HM Forces Railcards here and its normally very obvious when they're being used and the OP seems to have done all the right things.

I cannot agree with this, walking out the gate whilst being dealt with by staff was not the right thing to do.

 

[RPI]

I cannot agree with this, walking out the gate whilst being dealt with by staff was not the right thing to do.

Likewise, many HM Forces railcard issues get dealt with (Lympstone Commando is on my patch so talking from experience).

 

[simonw]

I cannot agree with this, walking out the gate whilst being dealt with by staff was not the right thing to do.

Especially as the OP has stated that it was their intention to continue their train journey with, presumably, the invalid ticket.

 

[RY3365]

Especially as the OP has stated that it was their intention to continue their train journey with, presumably, the invalid ticket.

Sorry to be clear, I didn’t continue with an invalid ticket. The ticket I held was to Waterloo and I then used contactless to continue my journey from Waterloo East.

 

[simonw]

Sorry to be clear, I didn’t continue with an invalid ticket. The ticket I held was to Waterloo and I then used contactless to continue my journey from Waterloo East.

Fair enough, although I would have thought a ticket to your final destination from Brookwood, rather than two tickets would have been the normal way to pay for the journey.

 

[RY3365]

Fair enough, although I would have thought a ticket to your final destination from Brookwood, rather than two tickets would have been the normal way to pay for the journey.

Ordinarily yes but at the point I bought my ticket I was undecided about whether I would be returning to my own flat in London or to my parents house - decided on the latter in the end so I could be fed and watered

 

[6Gman]

I think the “commuting restriction” applies to the traditional meaning of commuting, ie regular daily travel, the sort of thing you’d often use a season for.

Going back to a remote home address, eg the parents, for a weekend during a course, or a main leave period, isn’t commuting. (Despite many people referring to the weekly commute, I think the word is being misused in that context.)

I take a different view. The railcard is for leisure use; a journey to/from a place of work is not a leisure use. Whether that travel is daily, weekly or irregular is, I suspect, irrelevant. Indeed it could be a one-off journey.

Also the OP states in #16 that the fare would be reimbursed by (ultimately) the Ministry of Defence. As such I don't think it can be regarded as leisure use.

My personal view (and I stress this is a personal view with which others may disagree) is that - if I were the OP - I would settle for the £114, chalk it down to experience, and hope the TOC doesn't go digging for possible previous use in this way.

(This is not a criticism of the OP - we all skim read "terms & conditions" - but it may well be that the railcard has been misused, if this is indeed misuse, on previous occasions.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed it is probably not wise to try to do too much digging as the railcard was being used for duty travel and not for leisure use.

7. The Railcard can only be used for non-duty (leisure) travel only. Commuting between home and place of duty, work or education is not available.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also the OP states in #16 that the fare would be reimbursed by (ultimately) the Ministry of Defence. As such I don't think it can be regarded as leisure use.

Ah, now I’d completely missed that bit, which makes my original point wrong.

But the thing is though, leisure travel itself is not as clear cut, because for most people who join the armed forces they now live where they work during the week, but usually retain family connections elsewhere that they consider home. A journey to that original home location for leave is definitely not duty travel. But this topic risks starting a new discussion…

 

[spag23]

Fair enough, although I would have thought a ticket to your final destination from Brookwood, rather than two tickets would have been the normal way to pay for the journey.

I've found that once you interchange onto TfL, using an Oyster or contactless can be cheaper than a TOC point-to-point or Travelcard, especially if your plans are likely to change.

 

[XAM2175]

The railcard is for leisure use; a journey to/from a place of work is not a leisure use. Whether that travel is daily, weekly or irregular is, I suspect, irrelevant. Indeed it could be a one-off journey.

Indeed it is probably not wise to try to do too much digging as the railcard was being used for duty travel and not for leisure use.

I would be minded to view the word "home" in the conditions as applying to the holder's ordinary place of residence, so this would hinge on where that is for the OP.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

FWIW, I've started a separate thread on what 'commuting' means for railway purposes: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railway-definition-of-commuting.226767/

 

[AlterEgo]

I would be minded to view the word "home" in the conditions as applying to the holder's ordinary place of residence, so this would hinge on where that is for the OP.

You can’t use it for duty travel, full stop. If the OP was on duty and being paid you can’t use the railcard to go to or from there. You can’t use it to go from Aldershot to your mum’s any less than you can use it to go from Aldershot to your own house. The travel is clearly duty travel - the OP having been at training and having been paid for it. There is no ambiguity about this as far as I can see.

 

[XAM2175]

The travel is clearly duty travel - the OP having been at training and having been paid for it. There is no ambiguity about this as far as I can see.

Ah, I apologise - I overlooked the fact that they'd been at training.

 

[Haywain]

You can’t use it for duty travel, full stop. If the OP was on duty and being paid you can’t use the railcard to go to or from there. You can’t use it to go from Aldershot to your mum’s any less than you can use it to go from Aldershot to your own house. The travel is clearly duty travel - the OP having been at training and having been paid for it. There is no ambiguity about this as far as I can see.

Indeed, and this is reinforced by the fact that the cost of travel was being reimbursed by the MoD. It seems the OP has incurred considerable inconvenience and, potentially, considerable expense through attempting to save the MoD around £5.

 

[spag23]

Indeed, and this is reinforced by the fact that the cost of travel was being reimbursed by the MoD. It seems the OP has incurred considerable inconvenience and, potentially, considerable expense through attempting to save the MoD around £5.

When I worked for a large organisation, "duty" journeys were defined as those within my normal (or extended) working hours, eg between different work premises. I could claim employer reimbursement for these. Furthermore, if anything untoward were to happen to me on such a journey, it would have qualified as an "accident at work". The commute wholly between home and office would qualify for neither of these benefits. On such journeys I was not "on duty" (ie being paid); so it wasn't a duty journey.

On the work/leisure issue, when I buy baking potatoes, I will not tolerate the supermarket barring me from slicing them into chips, on the grounds that they would lose out by not selling me their more expensive oven ready chips. But such restrictions seem to be the philosophy of the TOCs in barring passengers from certain activities at either end of their journey. Once someone has paid for the product, be it a vegetable or a journey, it's none of the supplier's business what the customer does after leaving their premises.

 

[Haywain]

Once someone has paid for the product, be it a vegetable or a journey, it's none of the supplier's business what the customer does after leaving their premises.

It is when supply of the railcard and how it will be used is part of an agreement with the employer, and is an employment benefit.

 

[RY3365]

The forgotten railcard rule allows you to forget your Railcard once within a year. You need to respond to the letter sticking to this point and enclosing a copy of your Railcard.

SWT have responded and closed the matter with NFA. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

SWT have responded and closed the matter with NFA. Thanks for all your help.

That's good news. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[gray1404]

That's great news. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[WesternLancer]

SWT have responded and closed the matter with NFA. Thanks for all your help.

All credit to SWT in this instance.

 

[jumble]

SWT have responded and closed the matter with NFA. Thanks for all your help.

I would like to think that whoever looked at it wants to show their appreciation for what you do for your country