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XC HST Failure Sun 2/1/22

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Amlag

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Today's 1227 Plymouth to Edinburgh HST lost 70 minutes between Ivybridge and N.Abbot where it was terminated and eventually ran empty back to Plymouth at about 1600.
Does anyone know the details of this failure, which would have caused considerable disruption to hundreds of peoples travel plans ?
 
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800001

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Today's 1227 Plymouth to Edinburgh HST lost 70 minutes between Ivybridge and N.Abbot where it was terminated and eventually ran empty back to Plymouth at about 1600.
Does anyone know the details of this failure, which would have caused considerable disruption to hundreds of peoples travel plans ?
Power car issues, lost 1 power car, got it working, then it shut down again. Terminated to return to depot.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Today's 1227 Plymouth to Edinburgh HST lost 70 minutes between Ivybridge and N.Abbot where it was terminated and eventually ran empty back to Plymouth at about 1600.
Does anyone know the details of this failure, which would have caused considerable disruption to hundreds of peoples travel plans ?

Hundreds of people’s plans is probably an overstatement, the train was restarted right time from Bristol TM so anybody north of there would have been unaffected and for those on board they were transferred onto a GWR service for Bristol running directly behind and then on the next XC service.
 

43096

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Today's 1227 Plymouth to Edinburgh HST lost 70 minutes between Ivybridge and N.Abbot where it was terminated and eventually ran empty back to Plymouth at about 1600.
Does anyone know the details of this failure, which would have caused considerable disruption to hundreds of peoples travel plans ?
Power car 43285 suffering from PEFR (Power Earth Fault Relay) trips in notch 4 and above. Other power car 43239 also reported not in the best of health: no notch 5 due to high water temperature fault.
 

DanNCL

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Hundreds of people’s plans is probably an overstatement, the train was restarted right time from Bristol TM so anybody north of there would have been unaffected and for those on board they were transferred onto a GWR service for Bristol running directly behind and then on the next XC service.
Depends how many people were left behind by the 4 car Voyager that replaced the HST.

That said, it’s no worse than XC’s current weekday situation!
 

Grecian 1998

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I was onboard this service heading for Bristol. Whilst I had made for coach G as usually the quietest coach with most space, I doubt there were 100 people onboard.

Train left Plymouth on time. It was noticeably slower than usual climbing Hemerdon bank. It seemed to lose speed until grinding to a halt at Bittaford next to the Horse and Groom. After setting off again around 15 minutes later it was announced there would be an extended stop at Totnes for the driver to try to fix a technical fault.

After a long stop at Totnes the doors were closed and the train set off for a metre before halting again. It then set off properly about 5 minutes later but ground to a halt climbing Dainton bank. The first couple of times the brakes were released the train slid backwards and the brakes were immediately reapplied. Eventually the train managed to set off at very low speed with jolts every 10 seconds and the guard announced a fitter would be joining us at Newton Abbot. The train then came to a halt again. After another delay it set off at what felt like below walking pace until it finally reached the summit at Dainton tunnel before rapidly picking up speed on the descent into Newton Abbot. It was then announced the train would be terminating at NAbbot which surprised absolutely no-one as far as I could see.

The following GWR Penzance - Cardiff service was now 60 minutes late due to being unable to pass the afflicted XC service. It therefore had all of its stops between Taunton and Bristol cut except the metropolis of Parson Street (due to needing to pick up fans who'd been to Bristol City v Millwall at Ashton Gate). This was handy for me as I live nearby, but no-one else. It had quite a long stop at Taunton - I assume to make sure anyone needing intermediate stations had left to await the following Penzance - Cardiff service, which was only 15 minutes behind by this point.

The above account is entirely the product of my own memory and may therefore be flawed or inaccurate.

Not an ideal journey. I'm glad I wasn't in a hurry and had a novel to read, but I appreciate many others couldn't say the same.
 

nat67

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Not running daily at the moment is causing the power cars to suffer more. So likely more failures.
 

Wyrleybart

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Not running daily at the moment is causing the power cars to suffer more. So likely more failures.

But is also providing ample time for the fitters to rectify faults like the one on 43239 which is rumoured to have been afflicting the power car for the three months. Granted, it wouldn't help if the power car spent the week at Neville Hill or Craigenitinny because the DfT are choosing not to use them, but that is what fleet controllers are paid to do. As has been said elsewhere, taking 14 months to perform an E exam on a power car highlights the issues. Wonder how long an E exam takes on a GWR power car.
 

HamworthyGoods

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As has been said elsewhere, taking 14 months to perform an E exam on a power car highlights the issues. Wonder how long an E exam takes on a GWR power car.

The delays to the exam on that power car was supply chain issues waiting for obsolete parts to be specially manufactured, this is common with older rolling stock which is no longer supported for parts.
 

Amlag

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But is also providing ample time for the fitters to rectify faults like the one on 43239 which is rumoured to have been afflicting the power car for the three months. Granted, it wouldn't help if the power car spent the week at Neville Hill or Craigenitinny because the DfT are choosing not to use them, but that is what fleet controllers are paid to do. As has been said elsewhere, taking 14 months to perform an E exam on a power car highlights the issues. Wonder how long an E exam takes on a GWR power car.

There is one word that comes to mind; Laira.

Look at the consistently excellent record of fleet maintenance, cleaning, servicing and availability for service of DMUs cared for by the Exeter St D Depot over many years.
 

Horizon22

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I was onboard this service heading for Bristol. Whilst I had made for coach G as usually the quietest coach with most space, I doubt there were 100 people onboard.

Train left Plymouth on time. It was noticeably slower than usual climbing Hemerdon bank. It seemed to lose speed until grinding to a halt at Bittaford next to the Horse and Groom. After setting off again around 15 minutes later it was announced there would be an extended stop at Totnes for the driver to try to fix a technical fault.

After a long stop at Totnes the doors were closed and the train set off for a metre before halting again. It then set off properly about 5 minutes later but ground to a halt climbing Dainton bank. The first couple of times the brakes were released the train slid backwards and the brakes were immediately reapplied. Eventually the train managed to set off at very low speed with jolts every 10 seconds and the guard announced a fitter would be joining us at Newton Abbot. The train then came to a halt again. After another delay it set off at what felt like below walking pace until it finally reached the summit at Dainton tunnel before rapidly picking up speed on the descent into Newton Abbot. It was then announced the train would be terminating at NAbbot which surprised absolutely no-one as far as I could see.

The following GWR Penzance - Cardiff service was now 60 minutes late due to being unable to pass the afflicted XC service. It therefore had all of its stops between Taunton and Bristol cut except the metropolis of Parson Street (due to needing to pick up fans who'd been to Bristol City v Millwall at Ashton Gate). This was handy for me as I live nearby, but no-one else. It had quite a long stop at Taunton - I assume to make sure anyone needing intermediate stations had left to await the following Penzance - Cardiff service, which was only 15 minutes behind by this point.

The above account is entirely the product of my own memory and may therefore be flawed or inaccurate.

Not an ideal journey. I'm glad I wasn't in a hurry and had a novel to read, but I appreciate many others couldn't say the same.

To be fair, that's a fairly accurate account of what happened. There was some requirements for the BTP at Bristol of that GWR service as someone had not taken too kindly for the delay. The train was obviously held outside Totnes, while the XC occupied the platform. It might have been prudent to have just skipped Totnes and carried on, but hindsight is a wonderful thing!
 

43096

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The delays to the exam on that power car was supply chain issues waiting for obsolete parts to be specially manufactured, this is common with older rolling stock which is no longer supported for parts.
That's just making excuses. It's not as if the content of the exam is a surprise, nor is the date when a vehicle is due to stop a surprise - or at least it shouldn't be in any vaguely competent organisation. 14 months for an F exam (a 3 week job for Laira when they had a full fleet) is just utterly unacceptable. I doubt XC are impressed (or shouldn't be) that they have had to lease two extra power cars to cover Laira's incompetence.
 

HamworthyGoods

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That's just making excuses. It's not as if the content of the exam is a surprise, nor is the date when a vehicle is due to stop a surprise - or at least it shouldn't be in any vaguely competent organisation. 14 months for an F exam (a 3 week job for Laira when they had a full fleet) is just utterly unacceptable. I doubt XC are impressed (or shouldn't be) that they have had to lease two extra power cars to cover Laira's incompetence.

You have missed my point - that power car was stopped for months waiting for the necessary parts, the previous manufacturer had gone out of business and there was difficult sourcing a replacement supplier.

Nothing to do with Laira’s competence or not.

Getting parts for legacy fleets are becoming increasingly difficult without adding on the current supply chain issues countrywide. It’s not easy with bespoke parts when you have them ordered and they just don’t turn up. A similar issue has arisen with the ‘small’ toilets in turbos, hence many being locked out.
 

northernbelle

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That's just making excuses. It's not as if the content of the exam is a surprise, nor is the date when a vehicle is due to stop a surprise - or at least it shouldn't be in any vaguely competent organisation. 14 months for an F exam (a 3 week job for Laira when they had a full fleet) is just utterly unacceptable. I doubt XC are impressed (or shouldn't be) that they have had to lease two extra power cars to cover Laira's incompetence.
So what's changed? Because the organisation and depot responsible hasn't.

It's the hazard of trying to keep life-expired rolling stock in front line service - I don't see other GWR stock stopped for 14 months for a routine exam.
 

87015

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So what's changed? Because the organisation and depot responsible hasn't.

It's the hazard of trying to keep life-expired rolling stock in front line service - I don't see other GWR stock stopped for 14 months for a routine exam.
Careful not allowed to say anything negative about GWR there trainspotters won’t like it.
 

Wyrleybart

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You have missed my point - that power car was stopped for months waiting for the necessary parts, the previous manufacturer had gone out of business and there was difficult sourcing a replacement supplier.

Nothing to do with Laira’s competence or not.

Getting parts for legacy fleets are becoming increasingly difficult without adding on the current supply chain issues countrywide. It’s not easy with bespoke parts when you have them ordered and they just don’t turn up. A similar issue has arisen with the ‘small’ toilets in turbos, hence many being locked out.
I am not sure I have understood your point actually. What you are suggesting is that an XC power car has been stopped for fourteen months because necessary new parts for it are no longer obtainable. By comparison, I presume none of the "Castle" power cars have been stopped for anywhere near that long.

As "43096" has hinted, the DfT have had to underwrite the lease of two more power cars to XC because of the GWR way of fleet maintenance. I was told that XC trailers normally run twice the exam miles of the power cars. Therefore the 11th and 12th powercars procured last year (207 and 239) were so that a pair of powercars could wraparound a trailer set halfway through it's exam free period, so that the second pair would be due exam at the same time as the trailers. So for example 357 and 384 would takeover XC01 halfway through it's cycle - get examed and work XC01 until replaced halfway through the next exam period by a fresh pair, wash and repeat.

The consolation is that with the XC HSTs now running just 1/7th of their normal mileage there should be a maintenance "holiday" to allow Laira staff even more time to batter the fleet back together, if only they can get whatever made. I just wonder how on earth Laira managed with those 2+8s to Paddington and back before Hitachis took over.
 

irish_rail

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The trouble is too many staff were given redundancy at Laira when the HSTs finished and much experience and manpower was lost.
But supply chain issues accentuated by brexit and covid play there part.
 

Bluejays

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Slightly interested by the original post, lots of failures every day all around the country. Was there something about this one that made you suspicious ?

Poor form from GWR if they are neglecting the xc sets at Laira. I've been impressed with how well the gwr Castle sets have held up on the constant stopping duties they have.
 

43096

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The trouble is too many staff were given redundancy at Laira when the HSTs finished and much experience and manpower was lost.
Effectively, Laira have bid for work that they can't deliver - not very clever.

In fact, Laira is the wrong depot for XC HSTs. The nature of the diagrams means that nothing starts or ends its day there, which means one set is tied up as a swap-out set which really leaves only three usable sets at any one time. Once Craigentinny had decided they didn't want them, then either Heaton or Neville Hill (the premier HST depot, of course) would have been much better bets. I'd be willing to bet that Neville Hill wouldn't have taken 14 months for an F exam.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I am not sure I have understood your point actually. What you are suggesting is that an XC power car has been stopped for fourteen months because necessary new parts for it are no longer obtainable. By comparison, I presume none of the "Castle" power cars have been stopped for anywhere near that long.

This was a heavy exam, none of which have been taking place at the moment on the GW power cars.
 

43096

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This was a heavy exam, none of which have been taking place at the moment on the GW power cars.
I've no idea where you get that from, but it's utter nonsense. Major exams are taking place currently on the GWR fleet. E, F and G exams all being undertaken currently on the GWR power cars: 43094 is just off an E exam and at least 43187/189 are stopped for G exam.

Given that there is a backlog now piling up on GWR cars as well, that suggests there is a problem at Laira: as "irish_rail" says, they've let too many staff go. A totally self-inflicted wound.
 

DanNCL

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The delays to the exam on that power car was supply chain issues waiting for obsolete parts to be specially manufactured, this is common with older rolling stock which is no longer supported for parts.
Both London Underground and Tyne & Wear Metro have to maintain fleets of the same age and don’t have this same issue with part availability - they saw the issue coming and began making the parts in house. I don’t know about LU, but this practise is certainly still in place on the Tyne & Wear Metro even after Stadler took over maintenance and it remains effective - with the exception of scrapped 4022, all Metrocars moved under their own power in 2021, and almost all of them carried passengers, which is quite an achievement for a fleet of that age

Parts availability doesn’t have to be an issue, it’s only an issue when it isn’t planned for and preventative action isn’t taken, which it appears Laira haven’t.

But is also providing ample time for the fitters to rectify faults like the one on 43239 which is rumoured to have been afflicting the power car for the three months. Granted, it wouldn't help if the power car spent the week at Neville Hill or Craigenitinny because the DfT are choosing not to use them, but that is what fleet controllers are paid to do. As has been said elsewhere, taking 14 months to perform an E exam on a power car highlights the issues. Wonder how long an E exam takes on a GWR power car
The lack of HST work on XC during the week is down to crewing issues caused by the expiry of the rest day working agreement with ASLEF, it wasn’t a DFT decision.

Effectively, Laira have bid for work that they can't deliver - not very clever.

In fact, Laira is the wrong depot for XC HSTs. The nature of the diagrams means that nothing starts or ends its day there, which means one set is tied up as a swap-out set which really leaves only three usable sets at any one time. Once Craigentinny had decided they didn't want them, then either Heaton or Neville Hill (the premier HST depot, of course) would have been much better bets. I'd be willing to bet that Neville Hill wouldn't have taken 14 months for an F exam.
Not only did they bid for work they couldn’t deliver but undercut competition that could deliver too. Northern bid to do the work at Heaton, which would have been a much better option and unlike Laira, Heaton did have the capacity with the Grand Central HSTs having just been withdrawn at the time.

What makes it even more puzzling is that at the time the bids were made both XC and Northern were Arriva companies, so one would have thought it’d have been beneficial for Arriva to keep the work with one of their own companies rather than contracting it out to First.

Neville Hill would have been a non starter as it was full at the time and remains full now, the space vacated by the withdrawal of the EMR HST fleet was almost immediately taken up by 91+Mark 4 sets made homeless from Bounds Green, under near identical circumstances to the XC HSTs leaving Craigentinny (Hitachi not wanting to maintain anything that they didn’t build themselves for any longer than contractually obliged to).
 

Grumpy Git

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Given that there is a backlog now piling up on GWR cars as well, that suggests there is a problem at Laira: as "irish_rail" says, they've let too many staff go. A totally self-inflicted wound.

I'd bet someone got a nice bonus for meeting their budget on the staff cuts though!
 

Wyrleybart

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The lack of HST work on XC during the week is down to crewing issues caused by the expiry of the rest day working agreement with ASLEF, it wasn’t a DFT decision.

We will have to disagree on that point. The cessation of the RDW agreement is a handy reason to use, except when the squaddies were released from base for Christmas leave !!.
 

DanNCL

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We will have to disagree on that point. The cessation of the RDW agreement is a handy reason to use, except when the squaddies were released from base for Christmas leave !!.
It does make a difference, no rest day working (which the railway industry as a whole is far too dependent on) means fewer staff at work that sign HSTs, which we know to be an issue in Birmingham. The last thing anyone needs is a HST making it to New Street then clogging up a platform for ages as nobody who signs the traction is ready to take the train onwards.

Could the DFT have made more of an effort to sort this out? Absolutely, but the blame lies with XC and ASLEF more than it does with the DFT.
 
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