Advice required - forgotten railcard

[RY3365]

Hello, I am looking for advice regarding a letter received from south western railway. I will try and keep this brief but the facts are as follows:

I was travelling from the army training centre to my parents house having just completed a weeks basic training. I have a valid and in date HM forces railcard and purchased my ticket at Brookwood station to Waterloo (where I was then going to get a second train from Waterloo east). I assumed I had the card in my purse but admittedly didn’t double check before I bought the ticket. On the train someone from south western railway was checking tickets and asked to see my railcard. Upon looking in my purse I realised I didn’t have it and apologised. He asked me what railcard it was and I said it was an armed forces card. He said “don’t worry” and walked off to continue inspecting other people’s tickets.

Upon arriving into Waterloo I put my ticket through the barrier but it told me to seek assistance. I then showed it to a member of staff who asked about the railcard and I explained I had forgotten it but that the ticket inspector on the train had said it was ok. He told me to go and see another member of staff at the opposite platform. I went and spoke to the relevant member of staff once again explaining the same thing. He said that the member of staff on the train is just a train guard and doesn’t have authority. He then told me to wait there. However, feeling physically and mentally drained from my training as well as extremely sleep deprived I was desperate not to miss the train to my parents house departing from Waterloo east. I therefore walked through an open barrier and continued making my way towards Waterloo east. However, the same member of staff along with another man from revenue protection approached me just as I reached the barriers at Waterloo east.

The man from revenue protection told me “you’re in big trouble” which made me feel extremely distressed. I once again repeated the same explanation and reiterated that I was desperate to get home as I was feeling exhausted especially having to travel with my heavy kit (which they could clearly see). He dismissed all of this and also repeated that the man on the train had no authority. I queried whether the policy is that you’re allowed to forget your railcard on one occasion (which I remember reading somewhere) but the revenue protection man said no this isn’t the case. I voluntarily gave my details and I asked what was going to happen. The man typing into the machine told me that I would be written to and I would then be able to provide proof of my railcard. He asked me to sign his screen but didn’t show me what I was signing. He then gave me a slip of paper. The whole process delayed me by around 20 mins so I didn’t reach my parents home in Kent until very late.

I returned back to my flat today (I’ve been staying with family over Christmas) to a letter from south western railway asking saying that “they have sufficient evidence to prosecute” but are offering me two options: 1. an out of court settlement of £114 (comprising £14 fare and £100 admin costs) which must be paid within 21 days and 2. Prosecution. Whilst this amount isn’t going to break the bank I am minded to appeal on the basis of:

1. I made an honest mistake forgetting to check I had the railcard on me. I always carry it but as I had gone on training I had removed a number of cards from my purse and hadn’t used my purse all week which had been locked away. I previously had a 16-25 railcard which was available in digital form so never had the issue of forgetting it. However the HM forces card is only available in physical form.

2. The member of staff on the train who told me it was “ok” is a south western employee and it was reasonable for me to believe he had authority to waive (on behalf of south western) the consequences of me forgetting my railcard.

3. The man who took my details and asked me to sign told me that I would just have to provide evidence of my railcard. However I have been given no opportunity to do so.

4. The settlement is completely disproportionate. The railcard fare was £9 and the full fare was £14. In addition, why am I now being asked to pay the full £14 when I’ve already paid £9 of that?

5. The manner in which I was spoken to and made to feel like a criminal was horrible. I was in tears on the train back to my parents. I don’t think this is any way to treat someone who has made an honest mistake let alone someone who is mentally and physically exhausted from training. I feel they are using this as a way to claw back revenue from COVID but whilst I sympathise I feel in this instance they are picking low hanging fruit. I enjoy travelling by train and am keen to do so to help the planet but if making an honest mistake ends up in threats of prosecution and a stressful situation it makes me think twice about using the trains in future.

I would appreciate any advice or thoughts in general. Many thanks in advance.

 

[gray1404]

The forgotten railcard rule allows you to forget your Railcard once within a year. You need to respond to the letter sticking to this point and enclosing a copy of your Railcard.

Once that element has been settled you may make a separate customer service complaint regarding the manner in which he was spoken to by the staff concerned and their lack of knowledge about the policy of the industry that allows you to forget your Railcard once in a 12-month period.

 

[RY3365]

The 21 days expires on Thursday (as I said I only received the letter today) if I respond to them providing the railcard then does the clock stop or will they proceed to prosecution?

 

[Gloster]

I am not one of the knowledgeable experts on this forum, but my understanding is that if you forget your railcard they will let you off once a year, but it must go through the penalty fare system first, after which they will say, “We’ll let you off this time.”

1 Hopefully they will understand this and not wield the big hammer.

2 You will have to put this down to misunderstanding: the guard was possibly trying to help by avoiding confusing the issue.

3 I don’t know enough to give advice on this.

4 £114 is quite low by current standards, but you may feel you shouldn’t be charged at all.

5 Unfortunately, one person’s unpleasant manner is another’s clear and formal. I would forget this unless you have very clear evidence of unsuitable behaviour.

One difficulty that may have made you position more difficult is that you walked away. However reasonable you reasons, it does not help.

My only suggestion that you check the regulations to be sure that the rule that allows one mislaid HM Forces card a year, check your card is valid and in date, and then contact them by ‘phone if possible. If you send them any correspondance make sure you include your railcard details as proof of your holding one.

Once again I must underline that I am not one of the experts.

EDIT: By the time you have to decide whether to send the payment (no post before Tuesday), the experts should have replied. If anything they say disagrees with me, believe them. (Sorry, something weird happened to my keypad and I had to break off.)

 

[gray1404]

There is no requirement for a penalty fare to be issued in order to take advantage of the forgotten railcard once a year procedure. Some train companies will issue a penalty fare and then a copy of the railcard can be produced and others won't. The issuance of a penalty fare is not a requirement.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP, if you’re a reservist (I infer this from the one week basic training!), do contact your Commanding Officer - or at least a SNCO - and let them know what has happened at an early stage. They should hopefully appreciate the heads-up and honesty even if they may chew your ear off for deciding to walk away from the member of staff.

As for the next course of action, you should pay the settlement. The “forgotten railcard” thing only strictly applies if you have been charged for a new ticket, which hasn’t happened here.

I’m minded to agree you weren’t treated very nicely and have a fair bit of sympathy. However, as a serving member of HM Forces, full time or reservist, your absolute priority is to avoid criminal action. I think you will get a better outcome by paying, speaking to your chain of command, and raising a complaint. You may wish to also contact MoneySavingExpert (who campaigned for the “forgotten railcard” thing) or a consumer journalist who can help.

If this is something you are interested in, there are a few people here - including me - who can help by proof reading your correspondence before you send it.

 

[gray1404]

I am not convinced the forgotten railcard procedure only applies when a new ticket is purchased. We see on here previously people that have sent a copy of their railcard to resolve the matter without having to purchase a new ticket at the time. Some train companies will allow you to simply produce the railcard later on without the need to issue a penalty fare or purchase a new ticket at the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am not convinced the forgotten railcard procedure only applies when a new ticket is purchased. We see on here previously people that have sent a copy of their railcard to resolve the matter without having to purchase a new ticket at the time. Some train companies will allow you to simply produce the railcard later on without the need to issue a penalty fare or purchase a new ticket at the time.

The PR around the “forgotten railcard” thing and SWR’s own site say this is a refund mechanism which applies to Penalty Fares, Unpaid Fare Notices and full fare tickets sold on board. It is not an indemnity from prosecution which is what is happening here, almost certainly because the OP walked away and was stopped again.

Train Ticket Refunds | South Western Railway

You may be due a refund on your train ticket if you are unable to travel because of cancellation or delay. Apply for a refund now.

www.southwesternrailway.com

The OP is a serving member of HM Forces and their unimpeachable integrity is paramount here. The deadline to respond is Thursday. The only responsible advice is to settle and attempt to gain resolution after the fact, something which is likely going to be easier for a consumer organisation acting on their behalf.

Pay the settlement immediately and some of us can help you go into bat once the threat of prosecution is lifted.

 

[Vespa]

In addition to the above,

There is no harm in writing with a photographic proof that you have a railcard, people forget, you couod get it refunded, for future reference I would have taken a photo of it and store on your phone, if challenged you can show this and produce your MOD90 to provide convincing reasonable defence, weakening their point of attack by making a point that any attempted prosecution is pointless as it's a forgotten railcard assuming its the first time it happened, either way the revenue inspector has no right to speak to you in a such a manner, a formal complaint would be in order.

Hope you get it sorted, it's not the end of the world.

Next time prior planning and preparation prevents poor performance. Check before prepare to move

 

[RY3365]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies! I am so glad I came across this site. There seems to bit a little divergence in views so I think I am going to do a combination of the two: humbly contact them by email and phone on Tuesday providing details of railcard and quoting the “one time forgotten” policy and then saying something along the lines of “I hope you will consider this matter closed.” If they refuse to take my representations into account then I will pay the settlement on Thursday and then seek to make a complaint.

I agree that walking away didn’t help the situation but I didn’t force my way through a barrier nor was I rude or abusive. I was merely tired and frustrated at being told to “wait here” by numerous staff members on a Friday evening when I had a connecting train. Furthermore the SW railway website specifically says that you have a right to walk away if spoken to by a member of staff although it is not quite clear in what context this applies!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

Found this on the south western railway website. Interestingly it says that the member of staff will “make it clear who they are and how things will progress” which did not happen here (I assumed I was being issued with a penalty notice). I assume that what I signed was the interview notes but I wasn’t shown what had been written down I was merely asked for a signature which again I assumed was for a penalty notice.

 

[skyhigh]

I am not convinced the forgotten railcard procedure only applies when a new ticket is purchased. We see on here previously people that have sent a copy of their railcard to resolve the matter without having to purchase a new ticket at the time. Some train companies will allow you to simply produce the railcard later on without the need to issue a penalty fare or purchase a new ticket at the time.

The forgotten railcard policy is discretionary and TOCs don't have to offer it if there's any aggravating factors- walking through the open barrier after being told to wait could clearly be viewed as an attempt not to provide details or purchase a new ticket, so it's understandable why they decided not to offer the policy.

 

[gray1404]

The forgotten railcard policy is not discretionary. It is industry policy and forms part of the contract when a Railcard is purchased.

 

[island]

The forgotten railcard policy is not discretionary. It is industry policy and forms part of the contract when a Railcard is purchased.

I've just read through the HM Forces Railcard T&C, which are the terms of the contract when a HM Forces Railcard is purchased, and haven't been able to find any reference to the forgotten railcard policy therein. So this isn't correct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

The PR around the “forgotten railcard” thing and SWR’s own site say this is a refund mechanism which applies to Penalty Fares, Unpaid Fare Notices and full fare tickets sold on board. It is not an indemnity from prosecution which is what is happening here, almost certainly because the OP walked away and was stopped again.

Train Ticket Refunds | South Western Railway

You may be due a refund on your train ticket if you are unable to travel because of cancellation or delay. Apply for a refund now.

www.southwesternrailway.com

Indeed. Had the OP co-operated and accepted a Penalty Fare or purchased a new ticket, the matter could have been resolved under the once-per-year forgotten Railcard policy. A new ticket would need to have been purchased for the onwards journey on Southeastern also.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

1. I made an honest mistake forgetting to check I had the railcard on me. I always carry it but as I had gone on training I had removed a number of cards from my purse and hadn’t used my purse all week which had been locked away. I previously had a 16-25 railcard which was available in digital form so never had the issue of forgetting it. However the HM forces card is only available in physical form.

As mentioned above, there is a once-a-year refund available in this scenario but you must co-operate with the process, which you didn't.

2. The member of staff on the train who told me it was “ok” is a south western employee and it was reasonable for me to believe he had authority to waive (on behalf of south western) the consequences of me forgetting my railcard.

As per Part B of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, individual members of staff have no authority to waive conditions of travel. Even if they did, you would have no proof that the member of staff said this.

3. The man who took my details and asked me to sign told me that I would just have to provide evidence of my railcard. However I have been given no opportunity to do so.

This is unfortunate, but doesn't act as an excuse sadly.

4. The settlement is completely disproportionate.

The settlement amount of £100 plus the fare avoided is around average, and reflects the cost to the rail companies of detecting and dealing with fare evaders.

The railcard fare was £9 and the full fare was £14. In addition, why am I now being asked to pay the full £14 when I’ve already paid £9 of that?

You haven't paid £9 "of that". You bought a ticket for £9 which was invalid for your journey, because you were unable to present the supporting Railcard. That ticket was void and the full fare is payable.

5. The manner in which I was spoken to and made to feel like a criminal was horrible.

Without wanting to be unduly harsh, you were a criminal. Failing to pay a train fare is a criminal offence.

I was in tears on the train back to my parents. I don’t think this is any way to treat someone who has made an honest mistake let alone someone who is mentally and physically exhausted from training. I feel they are using this as a way to claw back revenue from COVID

This has been the standard method of dealing with fare evaders since pre-COVID.

but whilst I sympathise I feel in this instance they are picking low hanging fruit. I enjoy travelling by train and am keen to do so to help the planet but if making an honest mistake ends up in threats of prosecution and a stressful situation it makes me think twice about using the trains in future.

Making an honest mistake doesn't normally end up in this scenario, but compounding it by trying to escape after being caught does.

I would appreciate any advice or thoughts in general. Many thanks in advance.

My strong advice is to pay the amount requested immediately and chalk it up to experience. As others mention above, you really don't want to end up with a criminal conviction if you want to continue with your career in the forces.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The forgotten railcard policy is not discretionary. It is industry policy and forms part of the contract when a Railcard is purchased.

It's not, however, immediately relevant to the OP's position: it's perhaps worth looking closely at what SWR have to say about their policy (as linked above by @AlterEgo)

Forgotten your Railcard?

If you forget your Railcard and have to pay the full fare or buy another ticket, we’ll refund the extra cost if you meet the conditions listed below. If you received a Penalty Fare or Unpaid Fare Notice for failing to show your Railcard, you can ask us to cancel it. We’ll give no more than one refund in any 12-month period.

• You must claim a refund within 28 days of the expiry date on your ticket
• You’ll need to upload a photo or scan of your Railcard and photocard, plus another form of ID that shows your full name
• Your Railcard must be valid for the day and time of travel
• You’ll need to send us the original tickets, not photocopies
• You’ll need to send us any Penalty Fare or Unpaid Fare Notice

(Source: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/train-ticket-refunds)

The OP doesn't meet the bit that I have put in italics, so for the rest to apply needs SWR to choose to apply some discretion.

I see that the OP's plan is to talk to SWR and see if they will scale down their position. This isn't a bad plan, but you need to remember that SWR can still choose to take you to court - which is probably a worse outcome than paying the fare plus costs at £114. So essentially, don't shout 'I'll see you in court' and slam the phone down.

On the specific arguments, some of them are stronger than others. FWIW, these are my thoughts:

1. I made an honest mistake forgetting to check I had the railcard on me. I always carry it but as I had gone on training I had removed a number of cards from my purse and hadn’t used my purse all week which had been locked away. I previously had a 16-25 railcard which was available in digital form so never had the issue of forgetting it. However the HM forces card is only available in physical form.

This is a strong moral argument - but not in terms of the rules. The railway expects you to carry your Railcard and bluntly you are at fault if you don't have it with you. So we'll worth arguing - but you need to accept that technically you are wrong and will need to be apologetic for your mistake.

2. The member of staff on the train who told me it was “ok” is a south western employee and it was reasonable for me to believe he had authority to waive (on behalf of south western) the consequences of me forgetting my railcard.

I think this is a strong argument: if the person who checked your ticket on the train could take no action on an invalid ticket then what purpose did the check have?

3. The man who took my details and asked me to sign told me that I would just have to provide evidence of my railcard. However I have been given no opportunity to do so.

This is an important point to make: whatever was actually said you clearly didn't understand what you were signng up to. The railway clearly weren't clear enough for you to understand everything.

. The settlement is completely disproportionate. The railcard fare was £9 and the full fare was £14. In addition, why am I now being asked to pay the full £14 when I’ve already paid £9 of that?

I don't think there's much mileage in this. On the ticket element, you didn't have a ticket which was almost ( nine fourteenths) valid - tickets are either fully valid or not at all: your ticket wasn't fully valid so it wasn't valid at all. And ultimately there's only £5 at stake on this point so it may not be worth worrying about.

On the admin costs, obviously you are being charged a round sum rather than someone having worked out exactly how much this case has cost SWR to deal with. But let's do some rough sums:

Assume that
- one person dealt with the case
- they are paid £25,000 per year
- they work 250 days (5 days a week for 50 weeks) each year

That gives them a daily cost of £100. If it takes them a day to deal with your case, that's the £100 admin charge. And if they are paid more or there are other costs (desks and computers don't come for free) then it's easy to see how £100 or so will have been racked up.

5. The manner in which I was spoken to and made to feel like a criminal was horrible. I was in tears on the train back to my parents. I don’t think this is any way to treat someone who has made an honest mistake let alone someone who is mentally and physically exhausted from training. I feel they are using this as a way to claw back revenue from COVID but whilst I sympathise I feel in this instance they are picking low hanging fruit. I enjoy travelling by train and am keen to do so to help the planet but if making an honest mistake ends up in threats of prosecution and a stressful situation it makes me think twice about using the trains in future.

You should mention this, but be prepared to be knocked back; it would be natural for the SWR staff to claim that they didn't do anything wrong, even if they were out of order - and it's also possible for people to have different views of the same conversation. But there's no harm (particularly in light of your point (3) above) in pointing out that you went away distressed - which isn't what the railway should want to happen.

You have nothing to lose by trying to negotiate: just remember that SWR could make things worse than they are at the moment so you're not in the strongest position.

 

[LowLevel]

The key with the forgotten railcard policy is that it requires you to pay for a new ticket and regularise your travel and claim it back later.

Having been reported for the offence instead I'm not sure where that leaves you with potential action but it's worth bearing in mind.

It's not helped by the guard apparently trying to do you a favour but leaving you somewhat stuck, I have to say. Authorising someone to travel without producing their Railcard when there is a policy to deal with that very issue is not helpful, particularly if they're heading into a London terminal where they're fairly likely to encounter revenue protection staff.

 

[RY3365]

The key with the forgotten railcard policy is that it requires you to pay for a new ticket and regularise your travel and claim it back later.

Having been reported for the offence instead I'm not sure where that leaves you with potential action but it's worth bearing in mind.

It's not helped by the guard apparently trying to do you a favour but leaving you somewhat stuck, I have to say. Authorising someone to travel without producing their Railcard when there is a policy to deal with that very issue is not helpful, particularly if they're heading into a London terminal where they're fairly likely to encounter revenue protection staff.

Agree. The guard was obvs using his discretion and common sense but unfortunately but it would have been a much outcome to have explained to me that I needed to purchase a new ticket but would be able to claim a refund.

I will obviously settle before the deadline if they don’t accept my proof of railcard but I always thought that to pursue a prosecution the case must satisfy the public interest test? I would be surprised if it did here but then again I suppose I’m biased!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2022 ==

The irony in all of this is that my travel expenses were always going to be reimbursed by the army. So I had absolutely nothing to gain from trying to get a discounted ticket. Small mistake on my part is now leaving me hugely out of pocket. Think I’ll definitely drive next time!

 

[_toommm_]

The key with the forgotten railcard policy is that it requires you to pay for a new ticket and regularise your travel and claim it back later.

Having been reported for the offence instead I'm not sure where that leaves you with potential action but it's worth bearing in mind.

It's not helped by the guard apparently trying to do you a favour but leaving you somewhat stuck, I have to say. Authorising someone to travel without producing their Railcard when there is a policy to deal with that very issue is not helpful, particularly if they're heading into a London terminal where they're fairly likely to encounter revenue protection staff.

You’d hope there’d be some consistency. It happened to me on Transpennine. I forgot my railcard, and was ‘caught’ on train by revenue staff, but I didn’t have the money to buy a peak time ticket from Leeds to Manchester. I emailed their revenue protection with the photo, and by the end of the day the penalty fare or whatever it was was cancelled.

 

[island]

I always thought that to pursue a prosecution the case must satisfy the public interest test?

The public interest test applies to police and CPS prosecutions, but not to private prosecutions.

 

[Vespa]

Think I’ll definitely drive next time!

Sorry this has happened to you, another customer lost to the railways.

The railway industry seems to operate in a parallel universe where different rules and culture applies, instead of being corrective, they decide to be punitive, .

There needs to be a more customer focussed reform.

 

[AlterEgo]

You’d hope there’d be some consistency. It happened to me on Transpennine. I forgot my railcard, and was ‘caught’ on train by revenue staff, but I didn’t have the money to buy a peak time ticket from Leeds to Manchester. I emailed their revenue protection with the photo, and by the end of the day the penalty fare or whatever it was was cancelled.

This is consistent with the policy though, which is to refund additional fares or cancel a UFN once a calendar year. What you did differently I assume is not try to evade RPIs, which is why the OP has ended up being reported and you haven’t.

 

[miklcct]

The key with the forgotten railcard policy is that it requires you to pay for a new ticket and regularise your travel and claim it back later.

Having been reported for the offence instead I'm not sure where that leaves you with potential action but it's worth bearing in mind.

It's not helped by the guard apparently trying to do you a favour but leaving you somewhat stuck, I have to say. Authorising someone to travel without producing their Railcard when there is a policy to deal with that very issue is not helpful, particularly if they're heading into a London terminal where they're fairly likely to encounter revenue protection staff.

So the effect of OP's case is that the forgotten railcard policy does not actually forgive one forgetting a railcard, because technically he has committed an offence by not travelling with a valid ticket, and it's in the mood of the RPI to issue a full / penalty fare (thus regularise the travel) or report to prosecution, right?

Here, can anyone explain to me, in legal terms, why doesn't the action of the train guard constitute an "authority to travel" under the railway byelaw 18(3)(iii)? What should I do if I find out that I forgot my railcard when I'm checked such that I can get a full fare / penalty fare to avoid prosecution?

 

[6Gman]

Sorry this has happened to you, another customer lost to the railways.

The railway industry seems to operate in a parallel universe where different rules and culture applies, instead of being corrective, they decide to be punitive, .

There needs to be a more customer focussed reform.

I think the incident might well have been resolved in a more "customer focussed" manner had the OP co-operated by remaining to be processed. Instead she chose to leave and to attempt to board a further service. I understand her reasons for doing so but it was hardly likely to encourage a conciliatory response from the train operator.

And if the train operator really wanted to be "punitive" they could have gone straight to prosecution without offering a settlement.

 

[jumble]

The public interest test applies to police and CPS prosecutions, but not to private prosecutions.

TFL policy seems to disagree with this view

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

6. Decision to prosecute 6.1 It is recognised that the decision to prosecute a person suspected of an offence is an important and serious one. TfL will therefore only prosecute if: a) The evidence shows that there is a realistic prospect of conviction; and b) It would be in the public interest and in the interest of justice to prosecute.

 

[island]

TFL policy seems to disagree with this view

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

6. Decision to prosecute 6.1 It is recognised that the decision to prosecute a person suspected of an offence is an important and serious one. TfL will therefore only prosecute if: a) The evidence shows that there is a realistic prospect of conviction; and b) It would be in the public interest and in the interest of justice to prosecute.

Naturally, other organizations that conduct prosecutions may choose to voluntarily apply a public interest test too, though they may not be required to by law.

As the OP is not being prosecuted by TfL, TfL's policy is irrelevant.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the incident might well have been resolved in a more "customer focussed" manner had the OP co-operated by remaining to be processed. Instead she chose to leave and to attempt to board a further service. I understand her reasons for doing so but it was hardly likely to encourage a conciliatory response from the train operator.

And if the train operator really wanted to be "punitive" they could have gone straight to prosecution without offering a settlement.

The OP had already been told by an authorised person that it was OK. For the rail industry to then go back on that seems very customer unfriendly.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP had already been told by an authorised person that it was OK. For the rail industry to then go back on that seems very customer unfriendly.

Per the original post:

Upon arriving into Waterloo I put my ticket through the barrier but it told me to seek assistance. I then showed it to a member of staff who asked about the railcard and I explained I had forgotten it but that the ticket inspector on the train had said it was ok. He told me to go and see another member of staff at the opposite platform. I went and spoke to the relevant member of staff once again explaining the same thing. He said that the member of staff on the train is just a train guard and doesn’t have authority. He then told me to wait there. However, feeling physically and mentally drained from my training as well as ext

So the barrier staff argued that there was no authorised person on the train to have permitted travel.

I’ve got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I struggle to see that on-train staff (in particular if it was the guard, which is a particular grade of staff) won’t be authorised to make decisions like this - otherwise, what’s the point of doing a ticket check on the train when everyone will be checked at Waterloo? On the other hand, if all you need to get through the barrier at your destination is to say ‘It’s OK, the staff on the train said I could travel’ then there will be people who take advantage of this. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that the OP was trying to do this - I think they have made an honest mistake.)

 

[LowLevel]

Per the original post:



So the barrier staff argued that there was no authorised person on the train to have permitted travel.

I’ve got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I struggle to see that on-train staff (in particular if it was the guard, which is a particular grade of staff) won’t be authorised to make decisions like this - otherwise, what’s the point of doing a ticket check on the train when everyone will be checked at Waterloo? On the other hand, if all you need to get through the barrier at your destination is to say ‘It’s OK, the staff on the train said I could travel’ then there will be people who take advantage of this. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that the OP was trying to do this - I think they have made an honest mistake.)

As a train guard, I would never authorise someone to travel without a Railcard on a Railcard discounted ticket. There is a clear policy in place from the train operators on how to deal with this issue - the exception being if we were advised there was a fault with the app or similar.

It is distinct from other issues as there is a policy to allow the problem to be resolved in the customer's favour should the relevant evidence be able to be produced later.

I can authorise travel with the wrong ticket, wrong route, or indeed no ticket at all depending on the circumstances at my discretion - but I'd be expected to issue an appropriate endorsement with my details - a train guard, station supervisor, revenue protection inspector etc are suitably senior persons in the customer facing hierarchy and the endorsement allows the ability for the decision to be followed up internally if it's inappropriate.

As an example of where this can go wrong recently I was working a train and a customer got on my train with an advance purchase ticket from Station A to Station C, via Station B with two different train operators (Northern and Cross Country), neither of which was mine (Call it Toc X). Their first train had been cancelled and a well meaning gateline assistant had issued an endorsement to allow them to travel on my train (I work for the same company as the gateline assistant) and then a further fourth train operator (LNER) to their destination via a totally different route to avoid them waiting an hour.

This was inappropriate as there was another train within a reasonable time period, there was no ticket acceptance in place with LNER and therefore the gateline assistant was acting beyond their authority in telling the passenger to travel that way.

Of course I passed the customer on my train as an employee of my company had lead them to believe they were travelling with authority, which there may well be a legal argument to say they were.

LNER however were now subject to a promise made by someone who was nothing to do with them, at a station they don't serve or have a facilities agreement with, and were unaware of.

I contacted my control and explained the error and they contacted LNER who graciously contacted their traincrews to pass the customer.

I also contacted the supervisor at Station A who rebriefed the gateline assistant on endorsing tickets for alternative routes.

I include the above story to highlight the issues involved with determining authorised persons and what can go wrong if employees fail to follow the correct process.

 

[spyinthesky]

My strong advice is to pay the amount requested immediately and chalk it up to experience. As others mention above, you really don't want to end up with a criminal conviction if you want to continue with your career in the forces.

A criminal conviction for this will no longer affect a career in the forces.
It may be detrimental to the Annual reporting process but will not be life changing.
I agree that paying the requested amount is the best way forward

 

[MotCO]

As a train guard, I would never authorise someone to travel without a Railcard on a Railcard discounted ticket. There is a clear policy in place from the train operators on how to deal with this issue - the exception being if we were advised there was a fault with the app or similar.

It is distinct from other issues as there is a policy to allow the problem to be resolved in the customer's favour should the relevant evidence be able to be produced later.

I can authorise travel with the wrong ticket, wrong route, or indeed no ticket at all depending on the circumstances at my discretion - but I'd be expected to issue an appropriate endorsement with my details - a train guard, station supervisor, revenue protection inspector etc are suitably senior persons in the customer facing hierarchy and the endorsement allows the ability for the decision to be followed up internally if it's inappropriate.

As an example of where this can go wrong recently I was working a train and a customer got on my train with an advance purchase ticket from Station A to Station C, via Station B with two different train operators (Northern and Cross Country), neither of which was mine (Call it Toc X). Their first train had been cancelled and a well meaning gateline assistant had issued an endorsement to allow them to travel on my train (I work for the same company as the gateline assistant) and then a further fourth train operator (LNER) to their destination via a totally different route to avoid them waiting an hour.

This was inappropriate as there was another train within a reasonable time period, there was no ticket acceptance in place with LNER and therefore the gateline assistant was acting beyond their authority in telling the passenger to travel that way.

Of course I passed the customer on my train as an employee of my company had lead them to believe they were travelling with authority, which there may well be a legal argument to say they were.

LNER however were now subject to a promise made by someone who was nothing to do with them, at a station they don't serve or have a facilities agreement with, and were unaware of.

I contacted my control and explained the error and they contacted LNER who graciously contacted their traincrews to pass the customer.

I also contacted the supervisor at Station A who rebriefed the gateline assistant on endorsing tickets for alternative routes.

I include the above story to highlight the issues involved with determining authorised persons and what can go wrong if employees fail to follow the correct process.

And the moral of this story is that the passenger, despite no fault on his own part, is likely to travel again by train, whereas the OP isn't. Isn't that a win - win all round and how it should be?

 

[SussexMan]

I enjoy travelling by train and am keen to do so to help the planet but if making an honest mistake ends up in threats of prosecution and a stressful situation it makes me think twice about using the trains in future.

I would appreciate any advice or thoughts in general.

If the alternative is driving, then before you switch away from the railway you need to consider that you could forget to renew insurance, forget to get an MOT, forget to check your tyres are legal or that your lights are all working. In addition you might not notice the speed limit or what speed you are doing. All can lead to prosecution or a Fixed Penalty and presumably another stressful situation. I think the statistics would suggest (not that I've seen any, just a hunch) that you are much more likely to get prosecuted when driving than when travelling by train.

Of course you may be thinking about using buses and coaches.