Bulleid diesel reconstruction

[randyrippley]

Just looking at the Wiki entry for class 40, I hadn't realised how many have survived. Possibly too many.
Given the popularity of the 10000 rebuild project, there would seem to be a demand for rebuilding lost types, so how about converting one of the spare 40's to a "new" 10203?
The engine, underframe, bogies are all there in the donor. Just needs a new bodyshell. Far simpler and cheaper to do than the 10000 rebuild.
Only question is which one to convert? D200 isn't doing much at the moment, and being oldest is probably closest to the Southern diesels, so would seem the obvious choice.
What do people think?

 

[zwk500]

D200 is part of the National Collection, so good luck getting that one out of the shed!

What would be the value of 10203 given the 10000 rebuild and preserved Class 40s? We are now at a point in railway preservation where it will become increasingly expensive to maintain and operate existing preserved locos, let alone build new replicas. Is it really of value to the railway story in the way that the A1/60163 project was or could the money be better spent on other preservation projects? Preservation groups will need to think long and hard about what parts of the railway history they wish to tell, and how those aspects can best be shown.

 

[Gloster]

And the people who are keen on building and maintaining replica (or any) locos are getting older, retiring and dying off. The pool of people to do the work is shrinking and that of the hardcore enthusiasts, who will pay (directly or indirectly) for the work is also getting smaller. We should be concentrating on maintaining what we have, even to the extent of weeding the stock (how many 9F do we need?), rather than adding another loco which will cost a bomb, have a few years of glory and then become a millstone.

 

[John Luxton]

Just looking at the Wiki entry for class 40, I hadn't realised how many have survived. Possibly too many.
Given the popularity of the 10000 rebuild project, there would seem to be a demand for rebuilding lost types, so how about converting one of the spare 40's to a "new" 10203?
The engine, underframe, bogies are all there in the donor. Just needs a new bodyshell. Far simpler and cheaper to do than the 10000 rebuild.
Only question is which one to convert? D200 isn't doing much at the moment, and being oldest is probably closest to the Southern diesels, so would seem the obvious choice.
What do people think?

Personally I think it is a great idea it would just really be a rebodying job. Always thought the design of 10203 was much more aesthetically pleasing than the bonneted class 40s.

 

[Cowley]

I don’t see any of the class 40 groups wanting to get rid of one of their class 40s let alone the NRM with pioneer D200. There’d be absolute outrage!
40118 is probably the class member with the lowest profile (and is the only one yet to run in preservation) but even that is making good progress and the quality of workmanship is superb:

https://m.facebook.com/40118loco/

 

[Neptune]

Only question is which one to convert? D200 isn't doing much at the moment, and being oldest is probably closest to the Southern diesels, so would seem the obvious choice.
What do people think?

D200 being the pioneer of the class has far more historic value even stuffed and mounted in the NRM than a replica of 10203.

In fact there are only 7 class 40’s in preservation out of 200 locos so I wouldn’t say it’s too many when you compare it to other classes. It’s not like the ten a penny class 37 being rebuilt as a Baby Deltic.

 

[Mack91]

Just looking at the Wiki entry for class 40, I hadn't realised how many have survived. Possibly too many.

I don't see how 3.5% of a class making it into preservation could be seen as too many!

Personally, I don't see the point in trying to recreate a loco that has been lost. No matter how close the finished product is, it will never be the original. I'd understand a continuation, such as 60163, as that has brought a previously lost type back, without trying to sell it as a specific loco that it isn't.

I'd also be willing to bet that more people would be interested in seeing the seven remaining Class 40s be a success in preservation than see one be lost as a donor to something else.

 

[2392]

Rather than using one of the surviving class 40s. This could perhaps have been an ideal project the now scrapped remains of 45015. Principally the frames and running gear. Depending of course on what sort of state they were in, other than rusted beyond use and little more than scrap..... Just a thought.

 

[Cowley]

Rather than using one of the surviving class 40s. This could perhaps have been an ideal project the now scrapped remains of 45015. Principally the frames and running gear. Depending of course on what sort of state they were in, other than rusted beyond use and little more than scrap..... Just a thought.

Funnily enough I think I actually said that on here myself a few years ago.

 

[Western Sunset]

Maybe 2022 could be the year when heritage railways have a good clear-out of some of the rotting stock littering their yards and sidings, which will never get restored.

 

[randyrippley]

Rather than using one of the surviving class 40s. This could perhaps have been an ideal project the now scrapped remains of 45015. Principally the frames and running gear. Depending of course on what sort of state they were in, other than rusted beyond use and little more than scrap..... Just a thought.

wrong frames, wrong bogies, wrong engine, wrong electrics

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

I don't see how 3.5% of a class making it into preservation could be seen as too many!

Personally, I don't see the point in trying to recreate a loco that has been lost. No matter how close the finished product is, it will never be the original. I'd understand a continuation, such as 60163, as that has brought a previously lost type back, without trying to sell it as a specific loco that it isn't.

I'd also be willing to bet that more people would be interested in seeing the seven remaining Class 40s be a success in preservation than see one be lost as a donor to something else.

Seven locos is probably five too many. They're not all going to attract interest. One class 40 is much like any other barring cosmetics.
But a new build of 10203 would enable people to see a representation of the key loco in BR's dieselisation project. It was the jumping-off point for all the twin-cab EE designs, and for the competing Sulzer type 4 designs.
In it's own way, 10203 ushered in a new era of UK locomotive design, just as much as Rocket did

 

[zwk500]

wrong frames, wrong bogies, wrong engine, wrong electrics

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==


Seven locos is probably five too many. They're not all going to attract interest. One class 40 is much like any other barring cosmetics.
But a new build of 10203 would enable people to see a representation of the key loco in BR's dieselisation project. It was the jumping-off point for all the twin-cab EE designs, and for the competing Sulzer type 4 designs.
In it's own way, 10203 ushered in a new era of UK locomotive design, just as much as Rocket did

If your point is about how it led to the development of new designs, why is taking one of those developments and giving it a facelift a good way to tell the story? If there's key areas of the design to highlight, a cutaway replica in a museum setting would be more appropriate surely?

 

[randyrippley]

If your point is about how it led to the development of new designs, why is taking one of those developments and giving it a facelift a good way to tell the story? If there's key areas of the design to highlight, a cutaway replica in a museum setting would be more appropriate surely?

So convert D200 with a reworked body into a cutaway representation of 10203?
Doesn't look like it will ever run again, so at the moment it's a waste of storage space. Mechanically it's the closest to the Bullied locos so should need the least work.

 

[Western Sunset]

So convert D200 with a reworked body into a cutaway representation of 10203?
Doesn't look like it will ever run again, so at the moment it's a waste of storage space. Mechanically it's the closest to the Bullied locos so should need the least work.

Do you have something against D200?

 

[zwk500]

So convert D200 with a reworked body into a cutaway representation of 10203?
Doesn't look like it will ever run again, so at the moment it's a waste of storage space. Mechanically it's the closest to the Bullied locos so should need the least work.

I appreciate your passion for 10203 but this is no longer a productive discussion.

 

[Mack91]

So convert D200 with a reworked body into a cutaway representation of 10203?
Doesn't look like it will ever run again, so at the moment it's a waste of storage space. Mechanically it's the closest to the Bullied locos so should need the least work.

That "waste of storage space" is the pioneer of the first production class of express diesel locomotives in this country, so it seems more appropriate for it to be in a museum representing the Class 40s than it would to try and make it look like a prototype it became an evolution of.

 

[Spamcan81]

Just looking at the Wiki entry for class 40, I hadn't realised how many have survived. Possibly too many.
Given the popularity of the 10000 rebuild project, there would seem to be a demand for rebuilding lost types, so how about converting one of the spare 40's to a "new" 10203?
The engine, underframe, bogies are all there in the donor. Just needs a new bodyshell. Far simpler and cheaper to do than the 10000 rebuild.
Only question is which one to convert? D200 isn't doing much at the moment, and being oldest is probably closest to the Southern diesels, so would seem the obvious choice.
What do people think?

Gets my vote but D200 is probably not the best suggestion you could have made for the one to be converted.

 

[birchesgreen]

Just looking at the Wiki entry for class 40, I hadn't realised how many have survived. Possibly too many.
Given the popularity of the 10000 rebuild project, there would seem to be a demand for rebuilding lost types, so how about converting one of the spare 40's to a "new" 10203?
The engine, underframe, bogies are all there in the donor. Just needs a new bodyshell. Far simpler and cheaper to do than the 10000 rebuild.
Only question is which one to convert? D200 isn't doing much at the moment, and being oldest is probably closest to the Southern diesels, so would seem the obvious choice.
What do people think?

Don't you think D200 is a tad historic itself?

One of the others may have merit though i suspect their owners may be a bit hestitant. Class 40s are very popular locos in preservation/galas so i doubt there will be anything suitable. The idea to create a new 10203 would be interesting though, i'd love to see it for sure.

 

[Neptune]

D200 as mentioned by several people is extremely historic in its own right and is the only survivor of the first 10 prototypes. D200 is part of the National Collection at the National Railway Museum and just because it isn’t a runner doesn’t mean that it has any less value as an exhibit.

Just because it has the most similarities to 10203 doesn’t mean that it should be rebuilt into it. 10203 is a very niche locomotive, I can understand 10000 being recreated using a class 58 as a basis but rebuilding the pioneer class 40?

Do you remember (or even know of) all the effort that went to digging it out of storage at Carlisle Kingmoor in 1983 and getting it back on the mainline and into the National Collection?

Would it be an idea to have a display alongside D200 about the development of 10203 and how it transformed into the class 40. Better than having yet another highly expensive new build project that will take years to complete and that’s only if interest/money don’t run out which for something like this I suspect it would, followed by years of banging their heads against the wall because they’ve destroyed a historically important locomotive from the National Collection.

I still don’t see how 7 out of 200 locos is too many.

 

[zwk500]

The idea to create a new 10203 would be interesting though, i'd love to see it for sure.

How much would you be willing to pay per month to realise it?

Would it be an idea to have a display alongside D200 about the development of 10203 and how it transformed into the class 40.

This, 100%.

 

[birchesgreen]

How much would you be willing to pay per month to realise it?

I'd pay to see it at a gala, i don't subscribe to any more preservation funds as already maxed out on others already...

 

[43096]

I'd pay to see it at a gala, i don't subscribe to any more preservation funds as already maxed out on others already...

Paying to see it at a gala doesn’t really make it viable does it?

Essentially you’re saying it’s a good idea as long as someone else pays for it.

 

[Neptune]

I'd pay to see it at a gala, i don't subscribe to any more preservation funds as already maxed out on others already...

Therein lies the problem. There are so many different preservation projects going on that eventually everyone must say no financially.

For me there are too many new build projects on the go when these same people spending time and money on them could be focussing their time and money on current locos/coaches/wagons that are sat rusting away in sidings. I guess there’s less vanity in restoring an old industrial loco or a brake van though even though the rewards would be pretty much the same.

I’m not actually convinced that all the current new build projects will even complete.

 

[birchesgreen]

Paying to see it at a gala doesn’t really make it viable does it?

Essentially you’re saying it’s a good idea as long as someone else pays for it.

OK if you are going to be that way about it, its a rubbish idea then. OK now?