22 wagons run away at Toton, 17-1-21

[Taunton]

It seems surprising that there is no division of procedures between sidings which are flat, as most are, and sidings on a sufficient gradient that vehicles can run away when the brakes leak off. If nothing else, with these sidings on such a slope, they should surely have been provided with different and more robust trap points than they had, turning any runaway into the lineside and possibly having substantial buffers.

 

[GC class B1]

Chocks are only meant to hold and already stationary train...they are not designed to stop a train that is moving or stop a movement that is being hauled/pushed. Even a handbrake won’t do that unless it has a working handbrake interlock mechanism.

I don’t understand what you are saying. A handbrake can only be applied when the wagon is stationary. How would you expect the ‘interlock’ to work?

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It seems surprising that there is no division of procedures between sidings which are flat, as most are, and sidings on a sufficient gradient that vehicles can run away when the brakes leak off. If nothing else, with these sidings on such a slope, they should surely have been provided with different and more robust trap points than they had, turning any runaway into the lineside and possibly having substantial buffers.

The requirement to direct a derailed vehicle or vehicles away from the running lines is a reasonable outcome from any review of the effectiveness of catch points.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately whilst you use traditional Westinghouse-derived air brakes, this sort of incident is only a bad judgement call away.

Especially given the time it takes to apply dozens of handbrakes..... by hand.

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I don’t understand what you are saying. A handbrake can only be applied when the wagon is stationary. How would you expect the ‘interlock’ to work?

ECP brakes would allow powered application and release of "hand brakes" and monitoring of hand brake status.

 

[John Webb]

It seems surprising that there is no division of procedures between sidings which are flat, as most are, and sidings on a sufficient gradient that vehicles can run away when the brakes leak off. If nothing else, with these sidings on such a slope, they should surely have been provided with different and more robust trap points than they had, turning any runaway into the lineside and possibly having substantial buffers.

One of the main points raised in the report is that NR's assessment of the trap points was primarily based on a train being hauled by a loco. Therefore TWPS or the like on the loco would halt the train if the exit signal was passed and the trap point was a 'back-up'. Much less attention was paid by NR to the possibility that wagons would run away on their own as happened in this instance. Clearly NR will have some rewriting to do!

 

[O L Leigh]

ECP brakes would allow powered application and release of "hand brakes" and monitoring of hand brake status.

...or even just a spring actuated parking brake, as used on modern MU stock.

(Disclaimer: I'm not a freight driver so accept there may be reasons why this cannot be done.)

 

[GC class B1]

Ultimately whilst you use traditional Westinghouse-derived air brakes, this sort of incident is only a bad judgement call away.

Especially given the time it takes to apply dozens of handbrakes..... by hand.

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ECP brakes would allow powered application and release of "hand brakes" and monitoring of hand brake status.

If they are powered parking brakes then they are not ‘handbrakes’. wagons generally don’t have electric power supplies..

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...or even just a spring actuated parking brake, as used on modern MU stock.

(Disclaimer: I'm not a freight driver so accept there may be reasons why this cannot be done.)

See my post number 33.

 

[HSTEd]

If they are powered parking brakes then they are not ‘handbrakes’. wagons generally don’t have electric power supplies..

ECP braked vehicles do have electrical power supplies given that the service brake is electronically controlled.

FRA is currently funding trials on a handbrake that retains the handbrake wheel but can also be actuated electrically when needed - either by push button on vehicle side or by an ECP brake.

 

[GC class B1]

Standards usually prohibit the use of compressed air stored on vehicles for brake supply purposes to be used for any other purpose.

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ECP braked vehicles do have electrical power supplies given that the service brake is electronically controlled.

FRA is currently funding trials on a handbrake that retains the handbrake wheel but can also be actuated electrically when needed - either by push button on vehicle side or by an ECP brake.

Yes but wagons don’t have electrical supplies so ECP brakes are not a realistic option. A more realistic option is to revert to a two pipe air brake system and fit spring applied parking brakes.

 

[O L Leigh]

See my post number 33.

Thank you.

I will just mention that spring actuated parking brakes are also used on tread-braked units. The assembly is contained in the brake cylinder, so it doesn't really matter what type of brake it is attached to. Also, it doesn't preclude having a handle to wind the parking brake off, as this is often required to be done on the depot to move vehicles and/or units around. The mechanism for this need not be particularly complicated.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes but wagons don’t have electrical supplies so ECP brakes are not a realistic option. A more realistic option is to revert to a two pipe air brake system and fit spring applied parking brakes.

Retrofitting all the wagons back to two pipe operation is going to cost almost as much as moving to ECP brake operation - with retrofit kits now available in the US - and the latter gets you all the other benefits of ECP operation.

EDIT:

Although ultimately the question we have to ask here is "Who pays?" whatever your technical solution is.

 

[GC class B1]

A more reasonable option

Retrofitting all the wagons back to two pipe operation is going to cost almost as much as moving to ECP brake operation - with retrofit kits now available in the US - and the latter gets you all the other benefits of ECP operation.

EDIT:

Although ultimately the question we have to ask here is "Who pays?" whatever your technical solution is.

what are the benefits of ECP operation? All locos on Network Rail are equipped with the UIC two pipe air brake. If the proposal is to supply the electrical energy from the locomotives I suspect that voltage drop will be a problem as was found on first generation DMUs. If the wagons are to be fitted with generators then the cost will be enormous not taking into account the cost of modifying a large number of locos for at least initially a smaller number of wagons or the interoperability limitations. The cost of fitting another pipe, reservoir, valves and headstock cocks will be negligible compared to fitting an ECP brake.

 

[HSTEd]

what are the benefits of ECP operation?

Instantaneous brake application and release [freight trains with multiple unit braking performance!], real time monitoring of brake systems [no more Caledonian sleeper style runaways], real time confirmation of train formation, distributed multiple working, fully graduated control.
And in this situation,you can remotely control any other equipment you desire to place on the vehicle.

All locos on Network Rail are equipped with the UIC two pipe air brake. If the proposal is to supply the electrical energy from the locomotives I suspect that voltage drop will be a problem as was found on first generation DMUs.

It's in service with 12,000 foot long freight trains without issue!
Modern electronics and trickle-charged batteries on the vehicles means voltage drop is not a serious problem.

 

[GC class B1]

Instantaneous brake application and release [freight trains with multiple unit braking performance!], real time monitoring of brake systems [no more Caledonian sleeper style runaways], distributed multiple working, fully graduated control.
And in this situation,you can remotely control any other equipment you desire to place on the vehicle.


It's in service with 12,000 foot long freight trains without issue!
Modern electronics and trickle-charged batteries on the vehicles means voltage drop is not a serious problem.

Thanks for that. Yes my understanding is the main advantage with ECP braking is on very long trains. We don’t have very long freight trains in this country and with our infrastructure we never will. I worked in Australia for a while where they have a similar system but the infrastructure and method of operating there is more like in the USA.

The UIC brake has fully graduated control, unlike in the USA, and a spring applied parking brake would be fail safe. The cost will never be justified and proper operating instructions will ensure safe operation Of a UIC brake. With regard to the Caledonian sleeper incident, the privatised railway had dispensed with a BR requirement that would have prevented the incident.

I don’t see any benefit in multiple unit type brake operation on freight trains as apply and release times are not the major factor. Braking distance is the major element of the stopping distance when using passenger timings because of the lower speeds and lower braking rates of freight trains

 

[GB]

I don’t understand what you are saying. A handbrake can only be applied when the wagon is stationary. How would you expect the ‘interlock’ to work?

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The requirement to direct a derailed vehicle or vehicles away from the running lines is a reasonable outcome from any review of the effectiveness of catch points.

I was replying to someone who observed the holding potential of a chock overcome when a train movement is being attempted…they are not designed to stop that…even the compression in all the buffers when released can cause a wagon to roll over a chock. I was then saying a handbrake won’t stop a train that is attempting to be moved either unless it has a working handbrake interlock as even just one of those will vent the brake pipe and won’t allow the train to build its air and thus will not be able to be moved. None of that is relevant in this specific case as it didn’t involve a loco or an authorised train movement.

 

[Ken H]

Surely there is a role for dowty retarders in yards with a gradient. Surely they could have slowed the train down even if they didn't stop it, thus making the derailment less severe and of less danger to running lines.

 

[TPO]

Spring applied parking brakes normally use Main Reservoir Pipe air to release them. It is possible to use them on single piped vehicles and they can be release manually without air being supplied, but there are a number of disadvantages. Most wagons have tread brakes and mechanically applied parking brakes (handbrakes) are a fairly simple solution.

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I don’t understand what you are saying. Most wagons are fitted with handbrakes it will be local preference whether they are used. I wonder if they use chocks at Toton because they don’t trust the handbrakes.

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Scotches and chocks are alternative names for the same item. Scotches was always the official name in the past but dilution in the privatised railway has resulted in incorrect terminology with the associated risk of confusion.

Some possible reasons to use scotches instead of handbrakes (off the top of my head) in a freight yard:

(1) I have seen photos of older wagons with brakes so badly maintained (slack adjuster rusted solid and blocks worn) that even with the handbrake wound hard on, the blocks were an inch from the wheels. Bear in mind that the FOC operating the wagons may not be the owner, ECM or maintainer of them......

(2) Some continental practice is not to use (or have) handbrakes. So, if you have a yard which receives traffic from the continent, you may be better off having a "scotch not handbrake" rule so that you don't get caught out.

(3) DB are German-owned, so the continental culture may be an influence

(4) On some types of wagon it can be difficult to see if the brakes are on/off and if a handbrake is hard on and cannot be budged (without putting air through then exhausting it) then more chance of a handbrake being left on, whereas the long-handled scotches are much easier to (a) see and (b) consistently remove.

I don't work Toton so I don't know which of those (if any) reasons is relevant to them. But there are some sound reasons why a yard may have a "scotches vice handbrakes" rule.

TPO

 

[Dr Hoo]

Surely there is a role for dowty retarders in yards with a gradient. Surely they could have slowed the train down even if they didn't stop it, thus making the derailment less severe and of less danger to running lines.

I'm not at all sure that permanent retarders are suitable for a yard that is basically used for placing, stabling and preparing full trains with locomotives attached and with regular movements in both directions.

Not to mention that fact that the Dowty equipment was very expensive to install and maintain. Did you ever visit Tinsley, Bescot or wherever to see the amount of hydraulic oil that had leaked out?

Could you suggest a few yards (perhaps abroad) that use the system for the purpose that you describe?

 

[Ken H]

I'm not at all sure that permanent retarders are suitable for a yard that is basically used for placing, stabling and preparing full trains with locomotives attached and with regular movements in both directions.

Not to mention that fact that the Dowty equipment was very expensive to install and maintain. Did you ever visit Tinsley, Bescot or wherever to see the amount of hydraulic oil that had leaked out?

Could you suggest a few yards (perhaps abroad) that use the system for the purpose that you describe?

No. But it was lucky there wasnt a train passing on the running lines, and a bad smash occurring.

 

[Master29]

Troublesome trucks again in a certain scouse accent.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

BR rule book / General Appendix used to say - "stabled vehicles must be secured as a matter of urgency"

On a day , many years ago - got a 5 set as a special from Parkeston Quay to Coatbridge , to be attached to 4S80 (Felixstowe to CBGE) - mechanical signalling in those days - arrived at Ipswich reception , uncoupled and set off to do a run round via the "main line". We decided not to apply the 3 mandatory handbrakes as "loco back in a few mins) - bad move , - within moments the unbraked 5 set rolled away silently (air had leaked off) , so we had a Buster Keaton moment , self and shunter trying / succeeding to screw the handbrakes on , whilst the other shunter set the road for the head shunt. Set stopped fairly quickly just as the 47 came back into the yard. (delayed on the main line)

So I wrote a memo to all staff , advising them of the above rules and requirements. A close call. Did we ever report it , course not. People knew and laughed.

 

[Dr Hoo]

BR rule book / General Appendix used to say - "stabled vehicles must be secured as a matter of urgency"

On a day , many years ago - got a 5 set as a special from Parkeston Quay to Coatbridge , to be attached to 4S80 (Felixstowe to CBGE) - mechanical signalling in those days - arrived at Ipswich reception , uncoupled and set off to do a run round via the "main line". We decided not to apply the 3 mandatory handbrakes as "loco back in a few mins) - bad move , - within moments the unbraked 5 set rolled away silently (air had leaked off) , so we had a Buster Keaton moment , self and shunter trying / succeeding to screw the handbrakes on , whilst the other shunter set the road for the head shunt. Set stopped fairly quickly just as the 47 came back into the yard. (delayed on the main line)

So I wrote a memo to all staff , advising them of the above rules and requirements. A close call. Did we ever report it , course not. People knew and laughed.

An excellent and brave post, @ChiefPlanner.

I too had one of those heart-stopping moments, when a rake of ten empty bogie oil tankers ran away. I thought that I had secured enough wheel-operated handbrakes but clearly not. Also had the benefit of a fellow 'chaser' to frantically screw on a couple more on a different part of the train than the bit I was dealing with. Nothing reported or said at the time.

A few weeks later another colleague casually remarked, "Y'know, Guv, you weren't the first bloke to have a set of tanks run away on that siding." Followed by a smile and a wink.

But lesson learnt. Always secure it 'now'. Never ever assume that someone else will do/has done it. Never rely on just one wagon's brakes. Even if it is 'just for five minutes'.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

An excellent and brave post, @ChiefPlanner.

I too had one of those heart-stopping moments, when a rake of ten empty bogie oil tankers ran away. I thought that I had secured enough wheel-operated handbrakes but clearly not. Also had the benefit of a fellow 'chaser' to frantically screw on a couple more on a different part of the train than the bit I was dealing with. Nothing reported or said at the time.

A few weeks later another colleague casually remarked, "Y'know, Guv, you weren't the first bloke to have a set of tanks run away on that siding." Followed by a smile and a wink.

But lesson learnt. Always secure it 'now'. Never ever assume that someone else will do/has done it. Never rely on just one wagon's brakes. Even if it is 'just for five minutes'.

Spot on - the ration of 3 handbrakes to a (heavy) set must have been mandated by someone in an office , which had had a similar occurence. It is very tricky running alongside a runaway train , trying to spin those wheels round and obviously keeping a sharp eye open for potential trip hazards and of course point levers and so on.

The habit of people checking handbrakes by pulling the wheel around to the "on" position made it harder to apply them in dire straits.

Some alternative ways of showing the handbrakes were on , expressed superbly on the Southern 4XX etc series by putting a shoe paddle up on the second man's window side was a brilliant , simple and effective way of what would now be called a safety alert system.

Thank goodness for spring applied handbrakes on modern stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

BR rule book / General Appendix used to say - "stabled vehicles must be secured as a matter of urgency"

On a day , many years ago - got a 5 set as a special from Parkeston Quay to Coatbridge , to be attached to 4S80 (Felixstowe to CBGE) - mechanical signalling in those days - arrived at Ipswich reception , uncoupled and set off to do a run round via the "main line". We decided not to apply the 3 mandatory handbrakes as "loco back in a few mins) - bad move , - within moments the unbraked 5 set rolled away silently (air had leaked off) , so we had a Buster Keaton moment , self and shunter trying / succeeding to screw the handbrakes on , whilst the other shunter set the road for the head shunt. Set stopped fairly quickly just as the 47 came back into the yard. (delayed on the main line)

So I wrote a memo to all staff , advising them of the above rules and requirements. A close call. Did we ever report it , course not. People knew and laughed.

I’ll get that put on the log tonight as a late reported incident

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’ll get that put on the log tonight as a late reported incident

Few other incidents that could go on a historical log. (Like derailing 08661 all wheels doing some "innovative" shunting) - how long do log reporting principles apply ?

 

[Bald Rick]

how long do log reporting principles apply ?

hopefully not long enough to remember a (very) few things I may or may not have, ahem, seen at close quarters.

 

[Dr Hoo]

hopefully not long enough to remember a (very) few things I may or may not have, ahem, seen at close quarters.

Does that include things like having a derailment occur whilst the Divisional Manager was present undertaking a Best Kept Station Competition inspection and then having to implement single line working with, ahem, a very, very round number of working point clips?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Spot on - the ration of 3 handbrakes to a (heavy) set must have been mandated by someone in an office , which had had a similar occurence. It is very tricky running alongside a runaway train , trying to spin those wheels round and obviously keeping a sharp eye open for potential trip hazards and of course point levers and so on.

The habit of people checking handbrakes by pulling the wheel around to the "on" position made it harder to apply them in dire straits.

Some alternative ways of showing the handbrakes were on , expressed superbly on the Southern 4XX etc series by putting a shoe paddle up on the second man's window side was a brilliant , simple and effective way of what would now be called a safety alert system.

Thank goodness for spring applied handbrakes on modern stock.

Many many years ago I finished my shift at 1400 at Bescot and walked to the South End to wait for my mate to finish his shift as a 2nd man. We observed the shunter "Pussy Bill" go running across the south end yard throat waving his arms in the air. Looking in his general direction, across the other side of the mainline we saw the object of his concern.

6T19 from Donnington (the donnington tripper) had arrived with a class 31 pushing three warflats up the Down Receptions towards the hump, then released made it's way to the holding sidings to stable. Whether the guard expected the shunters to deal with the wagons straight away I don't know, but the air leaked off and the three warflats rolled away down the receptions and into the shunt neck riding up against the abutments of Sandy Lane bridge.

Always stuck in my mind that you don't trust a train to stay stopped using just the air in the system.

 

[GC class B1]

Some possible reasons to use scotches instead of handbrakes (off the top of my head) in a freight yard:

(1) I have seen photos of older wagons with brakes so badly maintained (slack adjuster rusted solid and blocks worn) that even with the handbrake wound hard on, the blocks were an inch from the wheels. Bear in mind that the FOC operating the wagons may not be the owner, ECM or maintainer of them......

(2) Some continental practice is not to use (or have) handbrakes. So, if you have a yard which receives traffic from the continent, you may be better off having a "scotch not handbrake" rule so that you don't get caught out.

(3) DB are German-owned, so the continental culture may be an influence

(4) On some types of wagon it can be difficult to see if the brakes are on/off and if a handbrake is hard on and cannot be budged (without putting air through then exhausting it) then more chance of a handbrake being left on, whereas the long-handled scotches are much easier to (a) see and (b) consistently remove.

I don't work Toton so I don't know which of those (if any) reasons is relevant to them. But there are some sound reasons why a yard may have a "scotches vice handbrakes" rule.

TPO

I note that the RAIB didn’t comment on the use of scotches and not handbrakes to secure the wagons. I have some concerns that scotches are not the most appropriate means of securing wagons, especially on a gradient. Whilst the obvious reasons for using scotches rather than applying handbrakes is that they are easier to use and provide visual evidence that they have beeen applied, the disadvantages are that they can be knocked away if the locomotive buffers up a bit too fast and without the power brake applied the rake would then run away. In addition coupling a loco to wagons held only by scotches does not seem to be best practice.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Many many years ago I finished my shift at 1400 at Bescot and walked to the South End to wait for my mate to finish his shift as a 2nd man. We observed the shunter "Pussy Bill" go running across the south end yard throat waving his arms in the air. Looking in his general direction, across the other side of the mainline we saw the object of his concern.

6T19 from Donnington (the donnington tripper) had arrived with a class 31 pushing three warflats up the Down Receptions towards the hump, then released made it's way to the holding sidings to stable. Whether the guard expected the shunters to deal with the wagons straight away I don't know, but the air leaked off and the three warflats rolled away down the receptions and into the shunt neck riding up against the abutments of Sandy Lane bridge.

Always stuck in my mind that you don't trust a train to stay stopped using just the air in the system.

As ex MOD Railfreight Contract Manager , (1983-1984) I trust the warflats were empty ! (from memory they had "bacon slicer" type handbrake wheels......)

 

[Wyrleybart]

As ex MOD Railfreight Contract Manager , (1983-1984) I trust the warflats were empty ! (from memory they had "bacon slicer" type handbrake wheels......)

Yes they were. Loaded they would have probably gone considerably quicker down the receptions and probably caused more damage.