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More prominent RPI and BTP on South Eastern?
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What is doughnutting?
Station A > Station B >>>>>>>> Station Y > Station Z
Buy a single from Station A to B and then buy a ticket from Station Y to Z The middle bit is missing
It's a clever workaround to bypass barriers.
Buy a ticket between Bromley South and Beckenham Junction. Stay on the train, jump out at Brixton and 'Tap in', jump back on the train to Vic
Which of course came at huge cost to rebuild the station. I don't deny that proactive management, multiple staffed barriers & a all-day presence will signficantly reduce fare evasion and improve customer service.
Many SE stations don't have this infrastructure - several hotspot London stations would need to be demolished to achieve it (ahem Brixton) and the only reason Abbey Wood is so changed was due to the huge Crossrail investment. Same with many Overground services. This is why people laud TfL as improving customer service - frankly any company could if enough targetted money is spent on the issue. Unfortunately the DfT often look at the short-term cost of these schemes and don't look at the long-term benefits.
SE almost have this almost endemic problem at many points of the network - culturally over decades people have got away with it and what are actually quite pleasant places have a really bad vibe about them. I'd say its probably the TOC with historically the worst revenue protection (outside of London terminals) and/or the passengers most willing to chance it. It's a vicious spiral.
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And almost always staffed too. But it's quite a narrow concourse and the flow is quite steady in both directions and staff often dealing with some sort of query. Some of the less standup members of society chance a run through the barriers...
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The problem is...
It DIDN'T change. Just because there was an increase in passenger numbers, doesn't mean that fare evasion went down. TBH its a little bit of a scam. It's easy to increase 'counted' passenger numbers.
Abbey Wood is still a hotspot for problems and again, not just fare evasion.
Thank youStation A > Station B >>>>>>>> Station Y > Station Z
Buy a single from Station A to B and then buy a ticket from Station Y to Z The middle bit is missing
It's a clever workaround to bypass barriers.
Buy a ticket between Bromley South and Beckenham Junction. Stay on the train, jump out at Brixton and 'Tap in', jump back on the train to Vic
I think the point being made is that passengers numbers didn’t actually go up, but that recorded passengers numbers went up because those originally fare-evading now had to tap in etc.
The entire station entrance had a rebuild and TfL have introduced higher levels of staffing and more gatelines. I have no doubt there remains a problem on the whole North Kent Line which has some of the most shocking passenger behaviour on trains/stations, but Abbey Wood is certainly less of an issue than it once was.
I just see the whole thing as "fake"
I'm one of those people who almost never tap in or out. Granted that's because I'm staff but it means I rarely tap my card. I just won't get recorded as a passenger. My kids are the same, they get waved through every day. I see it all the time with season tickets too. Many passengers just don't tap or put their tickets through the barriers. If you want to record passenger numbers, just make more people tap in/out or stick tickets through barriers.
It's scary because I know that passenger numbers get manipulated. Chuck an extra hour at a busy time and make everyone register and your numbers go up. What you are recording and counting is passengers that previously weren't recorded; not specifically fare evasion because those people are still likely to not pay. It's then easy to manipulate statistics and push a certain media perspective that TfL are magically better. I find it incredulous that anyone can believe that suddenly the presence of a barrier and TfL coming in suddenly increased passenger numbers and or reduced fare evasion. 50% is a huge number. I just isn't realistic and doesn't reflect on the ground experiences. It does help with long term data but to apply any short term changes ignores the reality.
The other issue is that any fare evasion is easily pushed to other locations. Back in the day (I was young once....) you would look out the train at Bromley and check for a block or a mate would ring you up and warn you about ticket inspections and you just drop down to Shortlands and walk up the hill. One of the reasons (one of the big secrets revealed here) Ticket blocks are done the way they are because they want to capture those who go one station further or shorter to avoid them. This recent campaign (which some posters haven't noticed) hits Charlton, Woolwich, Woolwich, Plumstead, Abbey Wood. This captures people trying to avoid a block and captures entire areas of the network.
Blocks at places like Bromley South hits more specific locations for targetted reasons. These happen almost daily across the network and yes, some days they will hit a specific station for a few consecutive days then move on.
All it takes is a few click in the dispute section to see how widespread fare evasion, ticket fraud, and general ticketing issues are. So many passengers come from mainline stations where there is an active gateline but still manage to get caught or bypass the barriers for some reason or another.
A multi faceted approach is vital to protecting revenue.
Some numbers from this campaign may be out next week.
SouthStand
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Agreed with the timing issue.
If the train is just approaching the station and my partner is holding the baby and other accessories etc. ready to disembark, I'd be telling the RPI to do one for his stupidity.
Indeed but other stations won't need a rebuild for Crossrail to fully gate. Abbey Wood too could have been improved years ago for a fraction of the rebuild cost. Welling and LO shows how by have another barrier line from the main building that is remotely monitored and/or occasionally staffed.
Doing similar at Abbey Wood was possible on platform 2 but no franchise, NR or the DfT would do it.
You mention Brixton. NR are to make millions via new developments on their land beside the station aren't they? Prime chance to rebuild to improve safety, customer service and capture list revenue.
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ComUtoR- As said above rising counted passengers numbers doesn't mean an increase in passengers. In fact if anything Abbey Wood probably saw a reduction in actual passengers as half of Thamesmead was being knocked down when passenger counts went up 50 per cent.
Of course some of that would be people tapping who already had a season ticket etc but surely not all.
Anecdotally (yes I know) I know quite a few who never paid to travel to places like Charlton and Greenwich who now do every time.
Some will still try to double gate of course or bluff the disabled barrier. However if there's a gradual program of gating along the line they'll find it trickier to do it at both ends. Only the hardcore will remain.
"I find it incredulous that anyone can believe that suddenly the presence of a barrier and TfL coming in suddenly increased passenger numbers and or reduced fare evasion."
Are you saying barriers do not reduce fare evasion, considering for years you could wander on easily with no ticket at Abbey Wood while now you have to tap or do something like double gate, which some previous fare evaders would now not dare do?
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Gates and ticket blocks will always push a few to buy a ticket in the future. Plenty of chancers who will always take a punt but get caught out. Especially amongst the younger members of the travelling public. Same with those who have previous. Getting caught once or twice is going to help discourage further abuse.
For sure. There are too many who live by the mantra 'Pay when challenged'
Gates are only one part of the solution. They are too easy to avoid and too easy to circumvent. With gates you also have to man them 24/7 to have any real impact. Passengers who routinely fare evade will just use the station when they know its not manned. I don't know any station (at my TOC) with barriers that are manned 24/7. Even the mainline stations will have periods where they gates are left open. Fare evasion takes many forms and passengers come from many stations with barriers and still manage to abuse the system.
For infrastructure, have a look at the new Kidbrooke Station. Brand new entrance hall and zero barriers. TOCs are not incentivised to install them.
The terms of old SE deals (inc. DAs) were the worst for this as there were effectively disincentives to installing them (DfT trying to have cake and eat it).
As a daily traveller on SE I have never in 10 or more years seen a ticket inspection take place on a Victoria suburban service, or a block at stations like West Dulwich, Herne Hill or Brixton. Herne Hill’s large ticket office was remodelled a couple of years ago with plenty of room for a barrier line - at a station which normally has 3 or 4 staff working there for most of the day - yet inexplicably there isn’t one. It’s no surprise that both ticketless travel and anti-social behaviour are rife on these routes and SE appears to have no interest in doing anything about it
What's the link between having barriers at stations and anti-social behaviour ? South London, North Kent, Meadway. None are exactly renoun for having a stand up community.
Seems a rather far fetched and exaggerated example, but in any case - if your partner is holding loads of things, how does that stop you showing your ticket? In any case, I find it somewhat unlikely that anyone is being asked as they're alighting given a train having a dwell time of 20-30 seconds, and other people getting on and off.
I used to commute on the Greenwich line and I never felt safe. Mugged once on a Saturday lunchtime service to Dartford and evening services were one big free for all which were full of undesirables.
However I do remember them doing blocks at Erith station during the evening peak.
However I do remember them doing blocks at Erith station during the evening peak.
londonteacher
Member
I have to say as a regular (twice daily 6 days a week) user of the Greenwich line that although there is antisocial behaviour on the line, there is no more than what I have seen on other lines though. SE London may not be the best, but it is definitely not the worst!
Back on topic, hopefully ticket blocks at stations are one of the ways forward under GBR. The more money the railway makes, the more improved the services become (under national ownership). Fingers crossed.
Back on topic, hopefully ticket blocks at stations are one of the ways forward under GBR. The more money the railway makes, the more improved the services become (under national ownership). Fingers crossed.
Hasn't Southeastern been under direct awards for years? If the DfT haven't been bothered so far I can't see why they will suddenly change their mind now!
The terms of the DAs didn't incentivise it...
Whilst I agree to an extent, I don't think its necessarily true. Southern services around S. London have always seemed a bit less unhinged to me & the Overground stations & trains feel safer. Also you might not think they have a stand-up community because it is being skewed by all these sorts of people causing a nuisance on the railway. It might (bit of a stretch) also drive (pun intended) the more "genteel" members of society away from using trains.
I think the general point is that people who don't want to pay their fare are also more likely to be people that engage in anti-social behaviour; ungated stations make it much easier for them to carry out that behaviour on the railway network.
Paul Jones 88
Member
Earlier today I caught the 14:19 London Bridge to Ashford (Kent), two staff came through the train checking tickets, full uniform, body cameras and they had a little gadget for scan smart cards, they were a re assuring presence.
OxtedSignaller
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It wouldn't surprise me if revenue protection had improved since Govia lost the contract. Their revenue protection (or lack of) is horrendous and still is on TL and SN.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
When I was a regular commuter from Penge East, there were occasional "stings/blocks" at Penge East/Kent House/Shortlands (the latter good for people wanting the avoid the barriers at Bromley South if they didn't mind a long walk)
Edsmith
Member
I don't think it was ever intended to install ticket barriers at Maidstone East. The rebuild was the ticket office and makes no difference to how difficult it would be to install ticket barriers. It would need a set on each platform and need a lot of work.Can confirm. Considering as its one of my local lines, i tend to be rather wary using it in the late evening. It has a very bad habit of attracting the undesirables....
Re Maidstone East: For some ungodly reason, no. Perfect opportunity missed- as per usual
Great Northern and Thameslink passenger hosts also have body cameras and equipment to read smartcards, just like reported above. They can also issue PFs and do MG11s via a tablet, which can do instant address verification as well as starting the prosecution process instantly (no paperwork to send in).
I assume Southern will be the same?
Edsmith
Member
Doesn't strike me as the best use of resources if the train has called at three stations with ticket barriers. They might be better deployed on coastal routes where fare evasion is rife and it seems very little is being done about it.
Onboard checks will likely be targeting short faring these days as that appears to be the most common scam, rather than people having no ticket at all.
Applepie356
Member
No one is willing to foot the cost of having a higher presence of revenue protection officers or even BTP officers.
Unfortunately it results in fare evasion and antisocial behaviour being rife.
Unfortunately it results in fare evasion and antisocial behaviour being rife.
Half the problem on South Eastern is that there gatelines are rarely staffed compared to most TOC’s
I’m always amazed in Kent when I find a gateline operational. Today for example Rochester was working but Chatham and Gillingham wide open which is my usual experience. Gatelines like Faversham I have never even seen in use (been there 10 plus times). Revenue Protection down there is horrrendous. Before COVID at least the guards use to go through but even they appear to have given up now
OxtedSignaller
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Other than Conductors and On Board Supervisors, who can issue tickets, Southern doesn't actually have any Revenue Protection Inspectors. So on the London suburban trains especially fare evasion is rife.
Apparently their On Board Supervisors have been trained on penalty fares but don't actually issue them.
Edsmith
Member
No I can't recall ever seeing the ticket gates at Faversham in use, seems hit and miss at most locations although Central London stations are a bit better. With the covid situation worsening on board ticket checks seem to have stopped completely, which is understandable, although even before covid they were sporadic.
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