Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

[philosopher]

Agreed, we really shouldn’t be taking one step forwards and two steps back. One of the often cited reasons for the huge length of restrictions last year was that we were going to do it once and never again. Scotland, Wales and most noticeably Ireland were even more cautious in their approach and are now under even worse restrictions.

Agreed, implementing restrictions now will lead many to conclude this will never end and that on off restrictions are now a permanent feature of life. For many this will be very demoralising and making planning for the future very difficult, for others however they will join the ranks believing that it is all part of a conspiracy to usher in a completely new way of life.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Government suggested once 70% have had a booster, then the restrictions they put on us in a few weeks will lift. So, we were lied to that 15m jabs would lead to freedom; we were lied to that the road out of lockdown was irreversible. And yet, it comes down to the public to take more vaccines for their freedom.

This rubbish has to stop.

 

[Kez]

Collective action is just too left of centre for my views.

Everyone is an individual and should work for their own best outcome in a situation.

Mrs Thatcher had the correct idea in 1987:

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."

I wonder if she had been around now how she would have managed things?

I am sure she would have told SAGE where to toddle off to.

So, it is okay for me to shoot someone and nick their stuff, if I can get away with it because that would be the best outcome for me ? Particularly if that person was particularly rich.

Humans have only survived because they are gregarious and are able to act collectively (though not in Britain, obvs) - otherwise they would have been eaten long ago.

(If you must reply in disagreement, please make sure you outline your framework for philosophical disagreement in your reasoning because I really won't be able to be bothered to respond to flakey talk about rights and morals as a defence.)

 

[Darandio]

So, it is okay for me to shoot someone and nick their stuff, if I can get away with it because that would be the best outcome for me ? Particularly if that person was particularly rich.

You've lost the plot.

 

[backontrack]

This might be of interest. https://twitter.com/drraghibali/status/1472134530173702145/photo/1

View attachment 107230

It seems like admissions for covid are similar to the summer, but we're seeing a lot more incidental admissions of people who come in for something else, but just so happened to have it, compared to last winter.

I mean, ultimately what's driving the new lockdown is the fact we're headed for another NHS winter crisis, isn't it? Because we always have one now, every year. But don't worry - Rishi Sunak's been talking to healthcare firms in the USA...

 

[seagull]

So, it is okay for me to shoot someone and nick their stuff, if I can get away with it because that would be the best outcome for me ? Particularly if that person was particularly rich.

If you drive a car, travel anywhere by anything other than foot, and barefoot at that, consume any goods at all, eat and drink, use electricity: you are in no position to lecture anyone else about "being responsible for killing others", as all of the above activities cause forms of pollution and environmental degradation of some form which potentially also kills people.

 

[Kez]

@Darandio @seagull

I am questioning the philosophy which has been proposed. It's not my thesis.

 

[John Luxton]

So, it is okay for me to shoot someone and nick their stuff, if I can get away with it because that would be the best outcome for me ? Particularly if that person was particularly rich.

Humans have only survived because they are gregarious and are able to act collectively (though not in Britain, obvs) - otherwise they would have been eaten long ago.

(If you must reply in disagreement, please make sure you outline your framework for philosophical disagreement in your reasoning because I really won't be able to be bothered to respond to flakey talk about rights and morals as a defence.)

All I will reply is that your comment is ridiculous.

My comments were in no way intended to undermine laws of reasonable behaviour.

 

[Eyersey468]

Agreed, implementing restrictions now will lead many to conclude this will never end and that on off restrictions are now a permanent feature of life. For many this will be very demoralising and making planning for the future very difficult, for others however they will join the ranks believing that it is all part of a conspiracy to usher in a completely new way of life.

I am starting to feel this will never end now to be honest and seriously questioning why I bothered getting jabbed.

 

[21C101]

The only purpose of the first lockdown was to educate and inform people on how we might live in a pandemic.

So you admit that the stated reasons for the lockdown, to supposedly save the NHS and stop 500,000 deaths waa a pack of lies?

And you continue to support lockdowns (otherwise known as mass destruction of peoples livlihoods and mental health) to "educate" people "how we might live", better translated as "show them who is boss"?

 

[joncombe]

Cobra meeting to be held at 5pm today. It's not looking good.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If there is a lockdown, it should only be for the unvaccinated since they are the major risk to both public health (by being better able to transmit the virus) and to public health services (since they make up the majority of covid hospital admissions)

What a ridiculous comment, how are they a major risk? Did you not hear of how despite vaccine passports cases in Scotland and Wales were still higher than in England which had no vaccine passports at the time, so if unvaccinated people were banned from venues where a passport was needed who was causing cases to rise? Why do you feel it’s necessary to create more divisions on society?

 

[philosopher]

I am starting to feel this will never end now to be honest and seriously questioning why I bothered getting jabbed.

This is another issue with reintroducing restrictions. Will many who have yet to get jabbed or boostered conclude there is no point if restrictions keep coming back, particularly when vaccines were sold as way of getting back to normal.

 

[NorthKent1989]

This is another issue with reintroducing restrictions. Will many who have yet to get jabbed or boostered conclude there is no point if restrictions keep coming back, particularly when vaccines were sold as way of getting back to normal.

Ive said this all along, those who aren’t jabbed already who can see there are still restrictions for who are vaccinated won’t get them rushing to get their jab any time soon as it’ll look like the government has no confidence in them themselves

 

[LowLevel]

This is another issue with reintroducing restrictions. Will many who have yet to get jabbed or boostered conclude there is no point if restrictions keep coming back, particularly when vaccines were sold as way of getting back to normal.

I don't think the two issues are related really. I'm not sure that the majority of people who receive the vaccines see it as a huge hardship, I certainly don't anyway. My social media is still full of people checking into jabbing centres.

Sure, there will be some who only get it because they think it's a way to avoid restrictions but I'm not convinced it's the majority, my own motivation is to avoid picking up something nasty given I have no practical method or desire to avoid exposure.

 

[backontrack]

If they're going to legislate people to stay in their homes, close businesses, and not mix socially, then why didn't they just force everyone to get the vaccine in the first place? They might just have bloody well done so.

I don't think government politicians are capable of understanding what lockdown is like.

 

[Eyersey468]

Ive said this all along, those who aren’t jabbed already who can see there are still restrictions for who are vaccinated won’t get them rushing to get their jab any time soon as it’ll look like the government has no confidence in them themselves

The main reason I got jabbed was to allow travel abroad to be honest especially with a trip I had planned for next year, now happening in early 2023 all being well as long as it doesn't get cancelled due to Covid, but it does feel like the government have no confidence in the jabs. I am therefore in no rush to get a booster.

 

[35B]

Collective action is just too left of centre for my views.

Everyone is an individual and should work for their own best outcome in a situation.

Mrs Thatcher had the correct idea in 1987:

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."

I wonder if she had been around now how she would have managed things?

I am sure she would have told SAGE where to toddle off to.

And her vision required people to act as part of society, not totally atomically - which is why the duty to look after neighbours was part of her position.

As for her response to SAGE, I suspect that the quality of questions would have been higher - after all, she was the trained scientist who acknowledged both CFCs and global warming, and the collective action that they required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==

You've lost the plot.

No, it’s a reasonable question about @John Luxton’s portrayal of individual first.

 

[takno]

I don't think the two issues are related really. I'm not sure that the majority of people who receive the vaccines see it as a huge hardship, I certainly don't anyway. My social media is still full of people checking into jabbing centres.

Sure, there will be some who only get it because they think it's a way to avoid restrictions but I'm not convinced it's the majority, my own motivation is to avoid picking up something nasty given I have no practical method or desire to avoid exposure.

I took the first two because to me it was a no-brainer to reduce my personal risk from becoming infected. I'm willing but not rushing to have another based on the reasonable idea that 6 months is actually a better spacing than 3 months.

Some people believe government wants to maintain a rolling programme of vaccinations forever. I personally doubt they do beyond a few pharma-stooges and the idiot Gove. If they do though, they will probably struggle with messaging like "jab to save Christmas", followed immediately by wrecking Christmas anyway.

 

[kez19]

The main reason I got jabbed was to allow travel abroad to be honest especially with a trip I had planned for next year, now happening in early 2023 all being well as long as it doesn't get cancelled due to Covid, but it does feel like the government have no confidence in the jabs. I am therefore in no rush to get a booster.

The thing was back in the beginning both governments and media championed the vaccines as a way back, then suddenly tone changed (in my mind from media), then it’s been reflected back and it has been ever since.

For me I would ask why did the tone change from the media? As I say they seemed to be happy about them coming out (heard it nearly everyday on the BBC), to then undermine them with the recent talks of waves/variants.

 

[philosopher]

I took the first two because to me it was a no-brainer to reduce my personal risk from becoming infected. I'm willing but not rushing to have another based on the reasonable idea that 6 months is actually a better spacing than 3 months.

Some people believe government wants to maintain a rolling programme of vaccinations forever. I personally doubt they do beyond a few pharma-stooges and the idiot Gove. If they do though, they will probably struggle with messaging like "jab to save Christmas", followed immediately by wrecking Christmas anyway.

The main reasons I took the booster was first as a way of preventing further restrictions and second to reduce the likelihood I would have self isolate from Covid. From everything I have read, for those of my age, who are healthy and double vaccinated, the worst they will get from a Covid is a cold, so I am no longer am frightened of Covid.

I would be very relucant to take a fourth vaccine unless that vaccine is considerably better in some way than the current vaccines, for example it’s protection lasts longer or it protects against new variants.

 

[johntea]

Cobra meeting to be held at 5pm today. It's not looking good.

I noticed the usual stealth proposals of more restrictions via the Sunday morning political shows today, particulary Sajid Javid on Marr!

 

[21C101]

Agreed, implementing restrictions now will lead many to conclude this will never end and that on off restrictions are now a permanent feature of life. For many this will be very demoralising and making planning for the future very difficult, for others however they will join the ranks believing that it is all part of a conspiracy to usher in a completely new way of life.

Quite. I know of someone who is antivax (has had no Covid vaccines) and thinks it is all a conspiracy who is now crowing "I told you so" and being listened to more sympathetically.

It is almost as if the powers that be are trying to make people like Icke and Corbyn seem like the voice of reason.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==

This is another issue with reintroducing restrictions. Will many who have yet to get jabbed or boostered conclude there is no point if restrictions keep coming back, particularly when vaccines were sold as way of getting back to normal.

I already have concluded that. I am double jabbed but now they have ratted on "two jabs to freedom" they can stuff their booster.

 

[ChrisC]

I took the first two because to me it was a no-brainer to reduce my personal risk from becoming infected. I'm willing but not rushing to have another based on the reasonable idea that 6 months is actually a better spacing than 3 months.

I took the first 2 jabs and more recently the booster probably as a result of being constantly told for the last 2 years that I am old and therefore vulnerable. I always considered people well over 70 and in their 80’s and 90’s as being old and vulnerable. I’m now in my mid 60’s and until this pandemic have always considered myself to be fairly young and fit for my age. It’s been quite a shock and depressing to be constantly told by the government and media that I am old and therefore at greater risk from covid.

 

[duncanp]

I noticed the usual stealth proposals of more restrictions via the Sunday morning political shows today, particulary Sajid Javid on Marr!

Not only that, but look how the SAGE scientists and lockdown addicts are constantly moving the goalposts.

In the past few days we have had scaremongering stories about the immediate collapse of the NHS unless we have

• A two week circuit breaker lockdown starting after Christmas
• A two week circuit breaker lockdown starting before Christmas
• A month long circuit breaker lockdown starting before Christmas

No doubt once the "lockdown", or whatever restrictions are implemented, has started, they will think of ever more fanciful reasons as to why the restrictions cannot be relaxed, ie we need to wait until 70% of adults have had their booster, then it will be two weeks after 70% of adults have had their booster, then it will be three weeks after 85% of adults have had their booster................four weeks after 100% of adults have had their booster..... etc, etc, etc.

 

[westv]

Cobra meeting to be held at 5pm today. It's not looking good.

Technically isn't it "meeting in COBRA to be held at 5pm"?
Probably a bit too pedantic though!

 

[Eyersey468]

Not only that, but look how the SAGE scientists and lockdown addicts are constantly moving the goalposts.

In the past few days we have had scaremongering stories about the immediate collapse of the NHS unless we have

• A two week circuit breaker lockdown starting after Christmas
• A two week circuit breaker lockdown starting before Christmas
• A month long circuit breaker lockdown starting before Christmas

No doubt once the "lockdown", or whatever restrictions are implemented, has started, they will think of ever more fanciful reasons as to why the restrictions cannot be relaxed, ie we need to wait until 70% of adults have had their booster, then it will be two weeks after 70% of adults have had their booster, then it will be three weeks after 85% of adults have had their booster................four weeks after 100% of adults have had their booster..... etc, etc, etc.

Exactly, I don't trust them not to shift the goalposts yet again either

 

[duncanp]

Exactly, I don't trust them not to shift the goalposts yet again either

I wouldn't mind betting that they say it's not safe to release the lockdown until England regain the Ashes, or the UK wins the Eurovision Song Contest.

A bit of exaggeration perhaps, but they keep coming up with fanciful reasons as to why it is not safe for restrictions to be relaxed, but they don't provide any justification for what they are saying.

 

[21C101]

These two comments on politicalbetting (by two different commenters, neither of which are me), encapsulate how I feel about this far more concisely than I could:

"The reality behind Covid isn't too difficult to percieve: essentially; mass panic, hysteria and delusion. In such an atmosphere it is foolish to even try and engage in such discussion [on the harms lockdown can cause]. It just feeds off a 21st century western obsession with safety. The impulse to prevent avoidable death is overwhelming. So society will destroy itself, in trying to keep itself safe"

- - - - -

"There is also a problem in how we cope with death in a post-religious society. In a word, we don't. Without the solace of an afterlife, we refuse to contemplate the reality of death -

eg look at just how many people die every year. In Britain that is 600,000. 50,000 every month on average, but of course much more in the winter. How many are aware of this, or think about it? Vanishingly few. It is death.. It is too bleak. Turn on Strictly.

If we had more awareness of mortality we might be less frightened of it, and thus able to deal with things like pandemics a lot better."

 

[Simon11]

Today’s covid data out and still no visible increase in hospital attendance, yet alone any signs of hospitals being overwhelmed.

Interesting to see the media still showing a worrying picture but not being able to mention any concerns on hospitals with the use of data and evidence! [whether from UK or abroad.....]