TFL Penalty Ticket

[Tracy Le]

Hello,
I need some help of my TFL penalty.
This moring, I am in rush and use the mobile apple pay to touch in for the DLR service. I may not touch in succefully, because I am late and in rush.
When I got to my final stop and just remembered I forgot to bring my file which was at home. I turned back and take another train.
The TFL officer came to me and said I want to fare evasion. I said I forgot my file and need to return back. I said that you could check my phone and saw that I touch in.
He refuse to do that and he said you saw me and then turned around. It make me feel you do not pay your ticket.
I say you could check my phone and he said a lot about crime record if you do not pay the penalty now. To be honest, I am not sure I touch in successfully or not. I said it is fine. I pay £40 penalty.
He said you could pay £40 cash or card? I don't have cash with me and I only have my phone. I could pay by apple pay. He tried his best to let me pay cash or tell him my credit card long number and expire date.
I feel not right. It feels like fraud. I ask for a penalty ticket and I could pay at home online. He refuse this request.
Keep saying payit now, you are not in trouble and you will not have any crimial record. If you refuse to pay, you will be in the fare evasion.
I said I could leave my name and address like other passengers. He asked his manager to come and record me. Even my height.
Finally he let me go and said wait for your fare evasion letter from TFL.
Question1: Cash payment or card payment to the officer at once? I am not sure it is a correct process.
Quiestion 2: Will I get a fare evasion record and crime record becuase of this issue. I will pay online if I receive the penalty notice from TFL.

Many thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

This does not add up. An inspector would ask you to tap the device or card you used on their machine in order to establish if you tapped in or not. Did they not do that as the very first thing?

 

[Tracy Le]

This does not add up. An inspector would ask you to tap the device or card you used on their machine in order to establish if you tapped in or not. Did they not do that as the very first thing?

We tried on the machine. I guess the machine could not read apple pay touch in or not.
The machine did not have any response.
After he said so many, I gave it up and choose to pay the penalty. I am not sure I touch in succefully or not.

 

[Haywain]

I guess the machine could not read apple pay touch in or not.

Because there wasn't a touch in?

Where were you stopped? Was it another DLR station that wasn't equipped with ticket barriers, so that you could have walked out without paying/touching out?

 

[Tracy Le]

my get in station and get off station do not have ticket barriesrs.
But I turn back to go home on the train platform. I do not go downstair

 

[AlterEgo]

Where were you stopped? Was the officer alone? Were they in uniform? Did they have any ID?

 

[Haywain]

But I turn back to go home on the train platform. I do not go downstair

And the ticket check was taking place on the platform, at the top of the stairs? Frankly, if you appeared to turn round after seeing them it would look to them like you wanted to avoid them, as would be the case of someone seeking to avoid paying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the ticket check was taking place on the platform, at the top of the stairs? Frankly, if you appeared to turn round after seeing them it would look to them like you wanted to avoid them, as would be the case of someone seeking to avoid paying.

It would look like that, but much to their dislike*, "attempting to avoid an inspector" isn't an offence if one has a valid ticket or touch-in.

* I've told this story before of the great disappointment of an inspector in Hamburg who thought I was doing exactly that, when in fact I'd just nearly missed my stop.

 

[Haywain]

It would look like that, but much to their dislike*, "attempting to avoid an inspector" isn't an offence if one has a valid ticket or touch-in.

* I've told this story before of the great disappointment of an inspector in Hamburg who thought I was doing exactly that, when in fact I'd just nearly missed my stop.

I understand what you are saying but if the OP started toward the exit before turning back it will look dodgy, and if there wasn't a touch in then it looks very much like evasion. I am hoping to help the OP understand how it looks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand what you are saying but if the OP started toward the exit before turning back it will look dodgy, and if there wasn't a touch in then it looks very much like evasion. I am hoping to help the OP understand how it looks.

I'd agree that if there wasn't a touch-in it looks more suspicious and thus may influence what happens once that was discovered to be the case.

 

[AlterEgo]

All of this is conjecture because it does seem to me that not everything is right about the OP's encounter with this "RPI".

 

[Tracy Le]

Where were you stopped? Was the officer alone? Were they in uniform? Did they have any ID?

On the platform. There are around 5-6 person outside the stops and waiting for the passngers leave station
They show me the Cover. I can not see their ID

 

[pelli]

Since this is the DLR (not a bus) and Apple Pay acts like contactless card (not an Oyster card), surely the inspector would not be able to see if it has been touched in or not? If the "card" is successfully read they should only see if the "card" has been blacklisted (due to too many previous failed inspections) or not? If the inspected "card" had not been touched in, then at the end of the day or something a maximum fare or something would be charged.

 

[AlterEgo]

On the platform. There are around 5-6 person outside the stops and waiting for the passngers leave station
They show me the Cover. I can not see their ID

Which station was this? And they were all in uniform?

 

[Tracy Le]

And the ticket check was taking place on the platform, at the top of the stairs? Frankly, if you appeared to turn round after seeing them it would look to them like you wanted to avoid them, as would be the case of someone seeking to avoid paying.

They are all in downstair. Suddenly, one officer come to the platform and stop me and another passenger.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From a revenue protection perspective, any passenger approaching an exit who then does a sudden about turn, will, in their eyes, look somewhat suspicious.

As a general aside, are TfL penalty fares now expected to be paid on the spot, as seems to be the case here?

 

[JBuchananGB]

To depart from a train, start towards the exit, then turn around when a group of ticket inspectors are waiting is the sort of behaviour which would arouse suspicion. If the OP's tap in at point of origin was successful, this will in due course show on their journey history won't it. This would then be grounds to defend any penalty action.
I believe it is the case that the inspector should have been able to read the Apple Pay on the phone, but this would not have verified whether there had been a successful tap in, just whether the card wasn't blacklisted. Of interest is what happened next. Did the OP then tap out at the destination, then tap in again to commence his immediate return to point of origin to retrieve his file? Followed presumably by a repeat of the original journey?

 

[Tracy Le]

Which station was this? And they were all in uniform?

It looks like a uniform for me. It is a

From a revenue protection perspective, any passenger approaching an exit who then does a sudden about turn, will, in their eyes, look somewhat suspicious.

As a general aside, are TfL penalty fares now expected to be paid on the spot, as seems to be the case here?

I dont know. I call TFL customer service and they don't know as well. It seems like no one know what is the correct process on the Train station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

Which station was this? And they were all in uniform?

Shadwell DLR Station. It is very often to check in this station.
But I do not they will ask me to pay cash and ask my long card number.
If they want to take the payment at once, they should have a card machine with them. Or they show write a penalty notice to me at once. I will believe that they are not fraud.

 

[jumble]

Hello,
I need some help of my TFL penalty.
This moring, I am in rush and use the mobile apple pay to touch in for the DLR service. I may not touch in succefully, because I am late and in rush.
When I got to my final stop and just remembered I forgot to bring my file which was at home. I turned back and take another train.
The TFL officer came to me and said I want to fare evasion. I said I forgot my file and need to return back. I said that you could check my phone and saw that I touch in.
He refuse to do that and he said you saw me and then turned around. It make me feel you do not pay your ticket.
I say you could check my phone and he said a lot about crime record if you do not pay the penalty now. To be honest, I am not sure I touch in successfully or not. I said it is fine. I pay £40 penalty.
He said you could pay £40 cash or card? I don't have cash with me and I only have my phone. I could pay by apple pay. He tried his best to let me pay cash or tell him my credit card long number and expire date.
I feel not right. It feels like fraud. I ask for a penalty ticket and I could pay at home online. He refuse this request.
Keep saying payit now, you are not in trouble and you will not have any crimial record. If you refuse to pay, you will be in the fare evasion.
I said I could leave my name and address like other passengers. He asked his manager to come and record me. Even my height.
Finally he let me go and said wait for your fare evasion letter from TFL.
Question1: Cash payment or card payment to the officer at once? I am not sure it is a correct process.
Quiestion 2: Will I get a fare evasion record and crime record becuase of this issue. I will pay online if I receive the penalty notice from TFL.

Many thanks

2 Simple questions as it is unclear from your post
Did you agree to pay the penalty there and then and the technology failed or did you refuse to pay??
Can you see the difference between paying on the spot and making a promise to pay at some future point ?

 

[Tracy Le]

2 Simple questions as it is unclear from your post
Did you agree to pay the penalty there and then and the technology failed or did you refuse to pay??
Can you see the difference between paying on the spot and making a promise to pay at some future point ?

Hello,
I agreed to pay the penalty there. But they request to pay by cahs or card? I dont have it.
They also ask my card long number and expire date. I dont have it.
I agree to pay by apple pay which I pay a lot via mobile now.
They refuse. They could not take apple pay.

They said only £40 penalty fee if I paid now.
If you refuse to pay now, it means you refuse to pay your penalty and we will claim your case as fare evasion and you will have crimial record.

They put a lot of pressure on me in the station.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Are you saying you don't carry a physical debit or credit card? Obviously not your fault if they don't take apple pay, but in future, this might be a good alternative option

 

[jumble]

Hello,
I agreed to pay the penalty there. But they request to pay by cahs or card? I dont have it.
They also ask my card long number and expire date. I dont have it.
I agree to pay by apple pay which I pay a lot via mobile now.
They refuse. They could not take apple pay.

They said only £40 penalty fee if I paid now.
If you refuse to pay now, it means you refuse to pay your penalty and we will claim your case as fare evasion and you will have crimial record.

They put a lot of pressure on me in the station.

This is very unfortunate that you have a single point of failure and you can see how this situation looks to TFL revenue collection
You will now have to wait for them to write to you
By the way did you actually touch in as you have told us you don't know ( were you charged a maximum fare?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

Are you saying you don't carry a physical debit or credit card? Obviously not your fault if they don't take apple pay, but in future, this might be a good alternative option

Did you mean obviously the OPS fault or obviously not their fault if an organisation does not take a particular payment method?
I suspect the Apple pay method was faulty as they could not read it in the first place and I am not convinced TFL ever said they would accept it for penalty fares in any case.

 

[andrew749]

I'm confused... according to the TfL website you don't have to pay a penalty fare on the spot; if paid within 21 days it's £40, otherwise it's £80.
Penalty fares and how to pay them - Transport for London (tfl.gov.uk)

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm confused... according to the TfL website you don't have to pay a penalty fare on the spot; if paid within 21 days it's £40, otherwise it's £80.
Penalty fares and how to pay them - Transport for London (tfl.gov.uk)

This could be key advice for the OP.

I am guessing the OP does not have English as 1st language, so even if this was explained to them on the spot at Shadwell DLR station (and may be it was not) they may not have understood it (no criticism of the OP - I can not speak any other languages myself).

Strikes me that the advice the OP needs is
a) how they can obtain the right to pay the Penalty Fare within 21 days (assuming the date ofd the office is still within that time which it is for a while if the incident was today)
AND
b) if they were not given that option is there any ability for the OP to insist that they not be prosecuted but be offered the Penalty Fare option, and if there is an ability to do that how can they go about insisting on that course of action.

A suggested draft letter for the OP to use may be needed to help the OP but I suspect the OP needs to upload anonymised copies of any paperwork received either on the spot or since the incident to help any forum member willing to suggest a draft form of words.

It would seem inappropriate for the OP to be offered a Penalty Fare but only one they could pay then and there on the spot in cash or with certain payment methods (but not the payment method the OP had with them - ie Apple Pay), and then when that payment method would not work the Penalty Fare offer seemingly be withdrawn? Others may correct me if this is not uncommon practice of course.

PS
The idea mentioned in a post above that the inspectors concerned may be scammers acting fraudulently seems a bit unlikely to me but if there is any prospect of that then I would think a report to the British Transport Police is the course of action with regards to that.

 

[Tracy Le]

This is very unfortunate that you have a single point of failure and you can see how this situation looks to TFL revenue collection
You will now have to wait for them to write to you

The way they ask for the payment it make me feel not right.
Why they do not give me a reference number to pay online? That is what my friend had it before.
I think they should have a card machine to pay payment. Not ask for cash and customer bank card number.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

I'm confused... according to the TfL website you don't have to pay a penalty fare on the spot; if paid within 21 days it's £40, otherwise it's £80.
Penalty fares and how to pay them - Transport for London (tfl.gov.uk)

Yes. The TFL website do not give more guideline of this payment.
Why they dont give me a reference number in the station? They try to make me in the position like I refuse to pay them.

 

[WesternLancer]

The way they ask for the payment it make me feel not right.
Why they do not give me a reference number to pay online? That is what my friend had it before.
I think they should have a card machine to pay payment. Not ask for cash and customer bank card number.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==


Yes. The TFL website do not give more guideline of this payment.
Why they dont give me a reference number in the station? They try to make me in the position like I refuse to pay them.

With respect:

I think they should have a card machine to pay payment. Not ask for cash and customer bank card number.

Possibly yes, other forum members may know what exactly happens / what equipment such staff have to use, but it will be up to TfL what payment systems they use, but you could write to their customer services about that, or ring them up and discuss it.
After all TfL think you should have methods to pay for a ticket that work before you get on their trains / buses / tubes etc, and it seems you did not (not your fault but they are not interested if your apple pay does not work)

My personal advice (to anyone) is to always carry a small / modest amount of cash around with you - whatever the banks and technology companies suggest you might be best doing...cash is surprisingly useful.

Why they dont give me a reference number in the station? They try to make me in the position like I refuse to pay them.

Hopefully other forum members will know exactly what procedure staff are supposed to go through and can set this out here.

 

[Tracy Le]

This could be key advice for the OP.

I am guessing the OP does not have English as 1st language, so even if this was explained to them on the spot at Shadwell DLR station (and may be it was not) they may not have understood it (no criticism of the OP - I can not speak any other languages myself).

Strikes me that the advice the OP needs is
a) how they can obtain the right to pay the Penalty Fare within 21 days (assuming the date ofd the office is still within that time which it is for a while if the incident was today)
AND
b) if they were not given that option is there any ability for the OP to insist that they not be prosecuted but be offered the Penalty Fare option, and if there is an ability to do that how can they go about insisting on that course of action.

A suggested draft letter for the OP to use may be needed to help the OP but I suspect the OP needs to upload anonymised copies of any paperwork received either on the spot or since the incident to help any forum member willing to suggest a draft form of words.

It would seem inappropriate for the OP to be offered a Penalty Fare but only one they could pay then and there on the spot in cash or with certain payment methods (but not the payment method the OP had with them - ie Apple Pay), and then when that payment method would not work the Penalty Fare offer seemingly be withdrawn? Others may correct me if this is not uncommon practice of course.

PS
The idea mentioned in a post above that the inspectors concerned may be scammers acting fraudulently seems a bit unlikely to me but if there is any prospect of that then I would think a report to the British Transport Police is the course of action with regards to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

Thank you for your advice.
I just wait for the TFL letter and pay for it.
It is the first time happen to me and what they say it make me feel very scared. Just do not want any bad record for £40/£80 penalty.

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

Thank you for your advice.
I just wait for the TFL letter and pay for it.
It is the first time happen to me and what they say it make me feel very scared. Just do not want any bad record for £40/£80 penalty.

OK - yes, wait for the letter but do come back to this thread so people can help you respond to it. It would seem very unfair to me if you were not given the chance to pay the penalty fare at the £40 rate.

People here will be happy to help you draft reply letter to them.

And if it was all a scam, well I doubt you will get any such letter - but check your bank and apple pay accounts for any sign of fraud on the accounts if you are worried that the staff were not legitimate TfL staff / inspectors.

Good luck.

 

[Cdd89]

It is suspicious but not illegal to turn away from an exit/revenue block, so I’d have expected the correct approach from the RPI to have been to record a revenue inspection touch on the presented contactless payment card/device and leave it at that.

It sounds like the RPI may have tried to do this:

We tried on the machine. I guess the machine could not read apple pay touch in or not.
The machine did not have any response.

…but the touch could not be recorded. The RPI may have therefore assumed that the device could not have been used to touch into the network (at all), and therefore issued a penalty.

Where the wheels fall off this explanation are the demands for payment immediately, presumed lack of receipt, etc.

@Tracy Le — Was your exit station a staffed station (apart from by the people carrying out this revenue operation)? If it is, it would make it less likely that it was a fraudulent operation.

 

[Tracy Le]

OK - yes, wait for the letter but do come back to this thread so people can help you respond to it. It would seem very unfair to me if you were not given the chance to pay the penalty fare at the £40 rate.

People here will be happy to help you draft reply letter to them.

And if it was all a scam, well I doubt you will get any such letter - but check your bank and apple pay accounts for any sign of fraud on the accounts if you are worried that the staff were not legitimate TfL staff / inspectors.

Good luck.

I feel much better after I read through all these advice and replies.
I will keep update if I receive any letter from TFL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

It is suspicious but not illegal to turn away from an exit/revenue block, so I’d have expected the correct approach from the RPI to have been to record a revenue inspection touch on the presented contactless payment card/device and leave it at that.

It sounds like the RPI may have tried to do this:



…but the touch could not be recorded. The RPI may have therefore assumed that the device could not have been used to touch into the network (at all), and therefore issued a penalty.

Where the wheels fall off this explanation are the demands for payment immediately, presumed lack of receipt, etc.

@Tracy Le — Was your exit station a staffed station (apart from by the people carrying out this revenue operation)? If it is, it would make it less likely that it was a fraudulent operation.

this is no staff station. Only these people carrying out the revenue operation today. Normally Police will stand next to it. But I dont see any plice today as well.
Otherwise I will trust them and tell them my bank card info.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

I feel much better after I read through all these advice and replies.
I will keep update if I receive any letter from TFL.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==


this is no staff station. Only these people carrying out the revenue operation today. Normally Police will stand next to it. But I dont see any plice today as well.
Otherwise I will trust them and tell them my bank card info