Would there be a way of getting more revenue earning services out of empty stock moves?

[Baxenden Bank]

The 0647 ex Liverpool returns next week. The 0851 being removed removes an entire drivers diagram. 5M06 and 5L54 both take diversionary routes so enable traincrew to retain route knowledge (and drivers to learn and pass out) via Chat Moss, Romiley, Dore Curve, Derby and Toton. It only looks inefficient to run these empty stock services to people on the outside looking in. The alternative would be for drivers and guards to be released to route refresh at least every six months for the various diversionary routes, not all of which would be possible to do within one shift.

mods note - split from this thread:

December 2021 Timetable change

Various TOCs have started to upload their timetables for December 2021. Northern and XC appear to be rolling over there current timetable, with TPE reintroducing Manchester-Glasgow and hourly Manchester Victoria-Scarborough services. Available so far: Northern, XC, TPE, Greater Anglia, LNER

www.railforums.co.uk

Or to run those ECS as public services, or use one of the existing public services and run it via those diversionary routes once per day, for example the first or last train of the day omits Sheffield to get the Dore curve and runs via Romiley. I say first and last to avoid having a hole in the all day pattern (which confuses the public). I don't have the numbers of drivers/guards needing to retain that particular route knowledge, and thus the number of trains required to ensure full retention of knowledge, but would once a day or once per week ensure all relevent staff covered them?

 

[IanXC]

Or to run those ECS as public services, or use one of the existing public services and run it via those diversionary routes once per day, for example the first or last train of the day omits Sheffield to get the Dore curve and runs via Romiley. I say first and last to avoid having a hole in the all day pattern (which confuses the public). I don't have the numbers of drivers/guards needing to retain that particular route knowledge, and thus the number of trains required to ensure full retention of knowledge, but would once a day or once per week ensure all relevent staff covered them?

Adds other complication too... Dore South curve would become a route with passenger service where it currently has none for instance.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Or to run those ECS as public services, or use one of the existing public services and run it via those diversionary routes once per day, for example the first or last train of the day omits Sheffield to get the Dore curve and runs via Romiley. I say first and last to avoid having a hole in the all day pattern (which confuses the public). I don't have the numbers of drivers/guards needing to retain that particular route knowledge, and thus the number of trains required to ensure full retention of knowledge, but would once a day or once per week ensure all relevent staff covered them?

The ECS is regularly diverted regardless of serving the diversionary routes so it would required a rail replacement bus for shadow part of the journey most weeks if they were to call at any intermediate stations. The only stations it could be guaranteed to serve would be those in Nottingham, Manchester and Liverpool and with what is sometimes an 0330 departure from Nottingham there'd be zero to little demand for the service, demand between North Western cities is already adequately served by Northern.

I genuinely don't get the obsession this forum has with this specific empty stock move and all of the creative fag packet ideas to solve the "issue" it is perceived to cause.

 

[berneyarms]

The ECS is regularly diverted regardless of serving the diversionary routes so it would required a rail replacement bus for shadow part of the journey most weeks if they were to call at any intermediate stations. The only stations it could be guaranteed to serve would be those in Nottingham, Manchester and Liverpool and with what is sometimes an 0330 departure from Nottingham there'd be zero to little demand for the service, demand between North Western cities is already adequately served by Northern.

I genuinely don't get the obsession this forum has with this specific empty stock move and all of the creative fag packet ideas to solve the "issue" it is perceived to cause.

Surely Sheffield would be a guaranteed stop as well?

But agreed, there will always be some ECS workings no matter what and frankly this one really isn't an issue.

 

[Starmill]

Surely Sheffield would be a guaranteed stop as well?

The train might not run via Sheffield though.

 

[Watershed]

The ECS is regularly diverted regardless of serving the diversionary routes so it would required a rail replacement bus for shadow part of the journey most weeks if they were to call at any intermediate stations. The only stations it could be guaranteed to serve would be those in Nottingham, Manchester and Liverpool and with what is sometimes an 0330 departure from Nottingham there'd be zero to little demand for the service, demand between North Western cities is already adequately served by Northern.

I fail to see what would be wrong with having calling points of Nottingham, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Lime Street. Yes, EMR would have to pay a handful of extra track access charges, but in the grand scheme of things - we are talking about pennies. In doing so it would provide a useful first train for anyone wishing to get to Manchester early (say, for a flight) and it would also provide the first train of the day from Piccadilly to Liverpool.

It's not about it being an "issue", more that there's a quick win to be had with little effort.

 

[JonathanH]

I fail to see what would be wrong with having calling points of Nottingham, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Lime Street.

The timings at each of those stations would differ depending on the route taken so it couldn't be delivered with any consistency.

 

[LowLevel]

I fail to see what would be wrong with having calling points of Nottingham, Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Lime Street. Yes, EMR would have to pay a handful of extra track access charges, but in the grand scheme of things - we are talking about pennies. In doing so it would provide a useful first train for anyone wishing to get to Manchester early (say, for a flight) and it would also provide the first train of the day from Piccadilly to Liverpool.

It's not about it being an "issue", more that there's a quick win to be had with little effort.

For a start it means you have to provide a guard who signs every diversionary route the train happens to be passing over on that day. As it stands now the only crew member requiring full route knowledge is the one sat at the front doing the driving.

For a second it's an 8 car 158 so a pain to fit at Oxford Road (IE local door operation whilst blocking the route up) and requiring multiple dispatch staff at a funny time of day when they're already busy at Piccadilly.

That immediately makes it a potential pain to cover.

 

[Watershed]

The timings at each of those stations would differ depending on the route taken so it couldn't be delivered with any consistency.

There are plenty of early/late services whose timings vary each week. Yet those aren't converted to ECSs "because it's inconsistent".

For a start it means you have to provide a guard who signs every diversionary route the train happens to be passing over on that day. As it stands now the only crew member requiring full route knowledge is the one sat at the front doing the driving.

It should be a lot easier to provide a guard with the requisite route knowledge, given that knowledge lasts 12 months rather than 6, and is learned more quickly to begin with.

For a second it's an 8 car 158 so a pain to fit at Oxford Road (IE local door operation whilst blocking the route up) and requiring multiple dispatch staff at a funny time of day when they're already busy at Piccadilly.

Blocking up the route at 5:30am, yes. It's really not beyond the wit of man, let's be honest.

The only reason it's an ECS is that that's the way it's always been. There's nothing more to it than that.

If it had always been a passenger service, people would call you crazy if you suggested making it an ECS.

 

[LowLevel]

There are plenty of early/late services whose timings vary each week. Yet those aren't converted to ECSs "because it's inconsistent".


It should be a lot easier to provide a guard with the requisite route knowledge, given that knowledge lasts 12 months rather than 6, and is learned more quickly to begin with.


Blocking up the route at 5:30am, yes. It's really not beyond the wit of man, let's be honest.

The only reason it's an ECS is that that's the way it's always been. There's nothing more to it than that.

If it had always been a passenger service, people would call you crazy if you suggested making it an ECS.

Route Knowledge refreshers for EMR guards are available from 6 months not 12.

There are plenty of guards who for one reason or another don't sign odd bits of diversionary route. To give them a refresher requires them to be taken off work for a day to do it when there are already shortages so it isn't a priority.

It isn't beyond the wit of man to run it as a passenger service. It's just, as plenty of people familiar with the matter keep pointing out to be told they're wrong, a waste of time.

Asserting that there are no real practical disadvantages to running the train in passenger service is incorrect. Whether they outweigh the minor benefits is up to someone else to decide but given it hasn't happened in 28 years, I'm assuming the benefits aren't considered worthwhile. This train has survived most of the other EMR ECS positioning moves being converted to passenger services in May '21, there must be a reason why

Nobody is writing in regularly saying "we really wish you ran a train at 0330 in the morning taking 2 hours to get to Manchester and 3 hours to Liverpool".

 

[bunnahabhain]

Nobody is writing in regularly saying "we really wish you ran a train at 0330 in the morning taking 2 hours to get to Manchester and 3 hours to Liverpool".

You've done it now. There'll be the stomp of big feet running downstairs to ask Mother for an envelope and stamp to write in!

 

[Llandudno]

Is there a late evening ECS move from Liverpool back to Nottingham, if so this maybe of more use for potential passengers?

 

[Starmill]

Is there a late evening ECS move from Liverpool back to Nottingham, if so this maybe of more use for potential passengers?

There used to be one on Saturday evenings, but it was converted to a passenger service last May.

 

[Llandudno]

There used to be one on Saturday evenings, but it was converted to a passenger service last May.

Ok, that must be the one I saw fly through Oxford Road a couple of years ago.

Good to see the 2141 Ex Piccadilly to Nottingham due to be reinstated this week, is it still going via Romiley (there were pathing issues when it was initially introduced) or is it routed via Stockport and if it is Stockport why doesn’t it call there?

 

[Starmill]

You've done it now. There'll be the stomp of big feet running downstairs to ask Mother for an envelope and stamp to write in!

There are definitely some more obvious examples. E.g on Sundays there's an empty stock from Leeds to Harrogate at 1622 which has to carry its train manager anyway to work the 1705 to London Kings Cross. That has been doing that for years on end, although the great irony is there's now a set that works up there and stays there for two hours meantime.

 

[Tomnick]

Ok, that must be the one I saw fly through Oxford Road a couple of years ago.

Good to see the 2141 Ex Piccadilly to Nottingham due to be reinstated this week, is it still going via Romiley (there were pathing issues when it was initially introduced) or is it routed via Stockport and if it is Stockport why doesn’t it call there?

The 2141 is via Stockport according to RTT, but the Dec 2022 draft timetable posted elsewhere suggests that the pathing issue around the Northern stopper won't exist after that, so perhaps the intention is for it to revert to via Romiley for route retention.

The late empties do still run (sometimes!), via Chat Moss, but only a few minutes behind the last passenger. It's useful for route retention but also for performance, as it was a very tight turnaround from the 2131 (?) arrival when they used to couple and go back together in service. It's also a useful get-out-of-jail-free if the driver doesn't sign Chat Moss, as there's still the option of coupling them.

 

[Eloise]

Ok, that must be the one I saw fly through Oxford Road a couple of years ago.

Good to see the 2141 Ex Piccadilly to Nottingham due to be reinstated this week, is it still going via Romiley (there were pathing issues when it was initially introduced) or is it routed via Stockport and if it is Stockport why doesn’t it call there?

Seems to be booked via Stockport. Two reasons it may not call: 1 - If it is required to route via Romiley for whatever reason (route retention, eng work) then no replacement bus is needed; or 2) no space to call given a Hazel Grove stopper immediately behind.

Given the last Liverpool - Nottingham behind calls Stockport I'd suggest 2) is the reason.

Re the empties Nottingham - Liverpool in the morning this is regularly retimed and rerouted for engineering works so is best left empty. The number of passengers vs the amount this service is amended simply isn't worth it. Plus you give someone an 04:30 Nottingham - Sheffield and then 1/5 it isn't there as it goes via Dore South curve and 2/5 it is +/- half an hour either side of 04:30 there would be uproar. This forum generates enough examples of that sort of uproar over the years. There are loads of examples of ECS moves being converted to passenger services, there will always remain some that don't. Also don't forget to convert to a passenger you may need dispatch staff, stations open and also apply for the rights in your track access contract.

 

[Tomnick]

Re the empties Nottingham - Liverpool in the morning this is regularly retimed and rerouted for engineering works so is best left empty. The number of passengers vs the amount this service is amended simply isn't worth it. Plus you give someone an 04:30 Nottingham - Sheffield and then 1/5 it isn't there as it goes via Dore South curve and 2/5 it is +/- half an hour either side of 04:30 there would be uproar. This forum generates enough examples of that sort of uproar over the years. There are loads of examples of ECS moves being converted to passenger services, there will always remain some that don't. Also don't forget to convert to a passenger you may need dispatch staff, stations open and also apply for the rights in your track access contract.

The 'normal' route for the empties is via Dore South Curve - it's only via Beighton and thus Sheffield one week in six normally (?). When it does go that way, it's invariably significantly earlier from Nottingham, and sometimes has to be routed through one of the station sidings at Sheffield as there's so much activity with setting the station up for start of service. I think it'd be safe to rule Sheffield out as a regular call then - which really just leaves you with a miniscule flow from Nottingham, and maybe a little more interest from Manchester, which is already served by the Northern stopper that the empties invariably trundle sedately behind.

 

[43096]

Adds other complication too... Dore South curve would become a route with passenger service where it currently has none for instance.

Dore South curve is fully signalled for passenger operation, has had regular booked passenger services in the past (Project Rio was the last) and is sometimes used to mitigate delays by omitting the Sheffield stop and running services direct from Chesterfield to the Hope Valley line. So there's nothing to stop it being used.

 

[IanXC]

Dore South curve is fully signalled for passenger operation, has had regular booked passenger services in the past (Project Rio was the last) and is sometimes used to mitigate delays by omitting the Sheffield stop and running services direct from Chesterfield to the Hope Valley line. So there's nothing to stop it being used.

There is, you are correct, nothing to stop it being used for a passenger service. I'm far from convinced that the DfT are in the mood for opening new lines of route like this - look at the costs that have been incurred with other chords either where a 'parliamentary' service has had to be provided, a closure procedure incurred or a long term rail replacement bus provided, should circumstances change in the future.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think I need to point I that this thread has arisen out of discussion about a specific long distance ECS (empty coaching stock) service from Nottingham to Liverpool, which takes up a significant part of a shift. Similarly the return of trains from Liverpool to Nottingham in the evening. There was also reference to a Glasgow duty which included a single driving turn between Newcastle and Edinburgh in a whole shift.

My solution would not be to operate that train in public service but to remove it completely - by operating the service from Liverpool, Nottingham and Norwich. A proposal which was being pursued but has been put on hold. The question then arises as to how those drivers would retain their knowledge once the Liverpool depot opens.

Transport for Wales (TfW) operate many services which are essentially ECS services which are available to the public. Examples include;
Services from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth 0453,
Machynlleth to Barmouth 0507,
A midnight run from Cardiff to Hereford, a wait there, then an early hours service back to Cardiff at 0432.
Similarly there are (in non-Covid times) services operating around West Wales out of Carmarthen.

Reference has been made to particular journeys being ECS to allow them to go via a slightly different routes on different dates to ensure staff retain their knowledge of different routes. As an example I would again point to TfW and their operation of services between Cardiff and West Wales via the various available alternative routes / avoiding lines at Swansea and Carmarthen. Route knowledge retained by use of existing services at the start / end of normal service.

I doubt any of these 'small hours' services carry many passengers, if any. The argument is, if a train is running anyway, it might as well run in passenger service.

Anyway, the case has been suitably made for not converting the Nottingham - Liverpool service into a public service, at least for the part of its route between Nottingham and Manchester.

 

[30907]

Transport for Wales (TfW) operate many services which are essentially ECS services which are available to the public. Examples include;
Services from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth 0453,
Machynlleth to Barmouth 0507,

There is no cost to running these in passenger services, bar the occasional rail replacement taxi (which would have to operate in the reverse direction anyway), as guard and driver start and finish together.

A midnight run from Cardiff to Hereford, a wait there, then an early hours service back to Cardiff at 0432.

This must be part of the service specification - AFAIK TfW do not operate out of Hereford, so it would not run as ECS.

Another example occasionally quoted is the late night Hayes (Kent) -Lewisham which runs as passenger so that the driver doesn't have to deal alone at Hayes with people who might be reluctant to leave

 

[bunnahabhain]

My solution would not be to operate that train in public service but to remove it completely - by operating the service from Liverpool, Nottingham and Norwich.

That would cost more money than the empty stock. You would require a large enough depot at Liverpool for EMR traincrew to make it a viable proposition. The whole reason Liverpool lost the work under Regional Railways was the lack of a financial case for Regional Railways Central to have traincrew up there, and this was in the day of Birmingham to Liverpool being operated by the same train running unit. People with more letters in their job titles and after their names have looked at a depot in Liverpool and it hasn't happened for the same reason it didn't happen under 'Organising for Quality', it costs more money than running the route from Nottingham.

Norwich depot itself exists purely because the Ely to Norwich line was absolute block signalled and running units empty from/to Nottingham for the first and last trains wasn't possible due to the line closing overnight. Had it been 24/7 the entire route would have been worked by Nottingham, using units based at Nottingham.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern, in their wisdom, run empty trains from Redhill to Reigate at 0558 and Reigate to Redhill at 2328 and 2359 that would fill gaps in the service but show a complete reluctance to run them in passenger service. I can understand them wanting to retain flexibility beyond Redhill to run these units to different stabling locations but they have to get between Redhill and Reigate wherever they subsequently go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would cost more money than the empty stock. You would require a large enough depot at Liverpool for EMR traincrew to make it a viable proposition. The whole reason Liverpool lost the work under Regional Railways was the lack of a financial case for Regional Railways Central to have traincrew up there, and this was in the day of Birmingham to Liverpool being operated by the same train running unit.

Thus it is a fault of the structure of privatisation. BR could have operated it from multiple depots, and it wouldn't matter if the 158(s) or their crew happened to be from the same one. Crikey, even the European state railways manage to operate each others' rolling stock.

There was no need for Regional Railways Central to have crew in Liverpool. It could, and should, have been worked between Liverpool and Sheffield (say) by Liverpool or Manchester crew, between Sheffield and Nottingham by crew from those, and the same for Nottingham to Norwich. The units should have come from both sides - they all had 2-car 158s and at that time the interiors were all the same.

 

[Ex-controller]

The reason in certain cases that trains will run ECS as opposed to passenger is operational flexibility, ultimately. Basically it means that it costs nothing to cancel it for whatever reason, and if diverting it the guard doesn’t need route knowledge (where booked to be on board).

It may also be the case that the old railway adage of ‘this is the way it’s always been’ in some scenarios. In all seriousness though, someone at the TOC would have to alter the track access application or timetable bid to change these services, and may decide it’s not worth the time of the train planners when considering the likely revenue that will come in.

 

[Killingworth]

Dore South curve is fully signalled for passenger operation, has had regular booked passenger services in the past (Project Rio was the last) and is sometimes used to mitigate delays by omitting the Sheffield stop and running services direct from Chesterfield to the Hope Valley line. So there's nothing to stop it being used.

It's also used by steam and diesel specials. Work is about to start to lengthen the chord to become a loop to hold freight services between the Hope Valley line and MML. That should be operational by mid-2023 and will allow more options. However, it's primarily designed to improve paths for cement and limestone trains that may be delayed without the impact that 20 minutes can make on a passenger service.

It might be possible to operate an occasional scheduled passenger service that way. The first and last ECS EMR workings, 5M06 and 5L54, might regularly fit that bill, but how many would want to use such trains to justify the effort?

bunnahabhain said: The 0647 ex Liverpool returns next week.

Sadly it doesn't until 3rd January, fingers crossed.

The Dore curve is frequently used to help recover time, like tonight when IL16 saved 20 minutes by avoiding stops at Dore and Sheffield; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C62076/2021-12-13/detailed

 

[Minstral25]

Southern, in their wisdom, run empty trains from Redhill to Reigate at 0558 and Reigate to Redhill at 2328 and 2359 that would fill gaps in the service but show a complete reluctance to run them in passenger service. I can understand them wanting to retain flexibility beyond Redhill to run these units to different stabling locations but they have to get between Redhill and Reigate wherever they subsequently go.

But GWR have started running their early morning/late night empty stock to/from Redhill in passenger service to fill gaps in Redhill to Gatwick service - maybe one day Southern will follow suit.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The best way surely you save money with these one way long(ish) distance ECS moves is not look at converting the ECS to a passenger service but look at removing the passenger service (whether total removal or terminating short) that causes the long distance ECS to be there in the first place.

 

[Killingworth]

The best way surely you save money with these one way long(ish) distance ECS moves is not look at converting the ECS to a passenger service but look at removing the passenger service (whether total removal or terminating short) that causes the long distance ECS to be there in the first place.

No! The last service may not be busy but when returning from business meetings in London I may have caught the second last service because I knew that if I stayed in the bar too long I could catch that later train. Take that lightly used train away and I'd have gone for the crowded previous service, with that second last as fall back.

Others may not make the outward journey by rail at all if that last train is too early.