Transpennine Express Class 185

[Fokx]

All 51x Transpennine Express Class 185 units will be retained until the end of their NRC award in 2023. The 15 units that were previously planned to leave the fleet in December will be kept.

The additional units will be used for strengthening services across the network, which will be subject to diversion as a result of the Transpennine Route Upgrade Project.

(Note to mods: Please move to the locked TPE 185 thread or more suitable thread if required)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All 51x Transpennine Express Class 185 units will be retained until the end of their NRC award in 2023. The 15 units that were previously planned to leave the fleet in December will be kept.

The additional units will be used for strengthening services across the network, which will be subject to diversion as a result of the Transpennine Route Upgrade Project.

(Note to mods: Please move to the locked TPE 185 thread or more suitable thread if required)

I very much assume many will be required beyond 2023 as well…

 

[D365]

Not sure what would have been achieved by creating 15 unit microfleet. In saying that, Northern have only 16 170s, but at least they are far more ubiquitous.

 

[James90012]

I tried to work out TPE rough fleet needs based on the latest timetable proposals, MRTF and the Scarborough / Hull swap. I ended up with excess 185s to the order of 15 or so, I.e. the amount planned to be released. Diversions for the TPE upgrade will increase turn length and therefore fleet needs but i do find it odd that at a time when the industry is being told to cut costs TPE's fleet costs will balloon.

Oh well great news for TPE passengers!

 

[Austriantrain]

I tried to work out TPE rough fleet needs based on the latest timetable proposals, MRTF and the Scarborough / Hull swap. I ended up with excess 185s to the order of 15 or so, I.e. the amount planned to be released. Diversions for the TPE upgrade will increase turn length and therefore fleet needs but i do find it odd that at a time when the industry is being told to cut costs TPE's fleet costs will balloon.

Oh well great news for TPE passengers!

Running fewer but longer trains is not a bad way to save money, so „cutting costs“ doesn’t need to be equivalent to „shrinking fleets“.

 

[D365]

Running fewer but longer trains is not a bad way to save money, so „cutting costs“ doesn’t need to be equivalent to „shrinking fleets“.

But it also goes against any kind of growth agenda… a catch-22 scenario.

 

[Austriantrain]

But it also goes against any kind of growth agenda… a catch-22 scenario.

It really depends what „less and longer trains“ means. If it is every two hours instead of every thirty minutes, you are right. If it is every 15 minutes instead of 10, or every half hour instead of every 20 minutes, it will not change that much.

It is for very good reasons that the Swiss will only go for more than 2 tph if capacity really requires it. Operating trains every 15 minutes is very expensive and in most cases, a half-hourly frequency is attractive enough.

 

[D365]

It really depends what „less and longer trains“ means. If it is every two hours instead of every thirty minutes, you are right. If it is every 15 minutes instead of 10, or every half hour instead of every 20 minutes, it will not change that much.

I'm going by the example set by Crosscountry, which has gone from half-hourly to hourly. Which starts to make it less appealing as a method of long-distance transport (more waiting for connections).

 

[James90012]

Running fewer but longer trains is not a bad way to save money, so „cutting costs“ doesn’t need to be equivalent to „shrinking fleets“.

I did do the calculations based on 6 car 185s except on the stoppers to Huddersfield and still had excess but didn't include things like summer 2tph York to Scarborough so there are probably enough extras to make up the difference.

 

[Watershed]

I tried to work out TPE rough fleet needs based on the latest timetable proposals, MRTF and the Scarborough / Hull swap. I ended up with excess 185s to the order of 15 or so, I.e. the amount planned to be released. Diversions for the TPE upgrade will increase turn length and therefore fleet needs but i do find it odd that at a time when the industry is being told to cut costs TPE's fleet costs will balloon.

Oh well great news for TPE passengers!

Not sure where you are getting those figures from? Currently the fleet is effectively fully deployed and yet there are still some diagrams which are singles.

The list below shows the number of circuits for the 185-operated service groups that will be running in December 22:

• MAN-HUD - 2 circuits
• HUD-LDS - 2 circuits
• MIA-RCC - 7 circuits
• MAN-SCA - 5 circuits
• LIV-HUL - 6 circuits
• LIV-CLE - 8 circuits

Now whilst the first 2 services will always be single units due to platforming constraints, all the rest ought to be doubles. If so, you would need 56 units out in service each day. There are only 51 units in the fleet, with 4 sets on maintenance on weekdays and 6 on weekends.

That leaves you 11 units short on weekends and 9 short on weekdays. And that's without allowing for any spares, driver training units or anything like that - which is unrealistic.

Now obviously the Mk5s will be covering for quite a few of those - there are already 4 in service and in due course that "should" rise to 11 out of 13 in service each day. Each Mk5 is roughly equivalent to a double 185 in terms of seating capacity, so that's between 8 and 22 185s freed up.

There is also the matter of the 802s, because even with their newfound deployment on the WCML, there will still be some spare sets - the 802 service groups will not be returning to what they were pre-Covid. That would perhaps enable them to cover one or two circuits, so another 2-4 185s freed up.

But, even taking all the above into account, 15 sets coming off lease would mean having a lot of diagrams being reduced to singles (as in the dark days of the past). The penny has - finally - dropped with the DfT.

 

[Starmill]

It's worth pointing out that there's a small net gain in the class 195 fleet as a consequence of no longer needing to resource Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central diagrams, which wasn't planned for until recently. This effectively consumes a small portion of the 15 number intended to be released three years ago.

They would be able to displace 195s elsewhere too without having to move away from the current bases, if there were too many of them long term. For example they could work the stopping service between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield or Darlington and Saltburn.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure what would have been achieved by creating 15 unit microfleet. In saying that, Northern have only 16 170s, but at least they are far more ubiquitous.

Especially not a 15 unit fleet (not convinced that 15 is small enough to be considered a microfleet) of heavy, overpowered units.

Once the Trans-Pennine wires are up, rather than trying to squeeze the 185s into a use they aren't suitable for, we should let Irish Railways take them.

 

[Starmill]

Once the Trans-Pennine wires are up, rather than trying to squeeze the 185s into a use they aren't suitable for, we should let Irish Railways take them.

Assuming IE are still interested in them in 2035!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2021 ==

Clearly the penny has - finally - dropped with the DfT.

Although on the other hand, a fleet so high in cost and so relatively poorly utilised is bound to begin attracting attention soon.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Assuming IE are still interested in them in 2035!

OK, how about New Zealand... or Iran? Both have taken our cast-offs before!

 

[Watershed]

It's worth pointing out that there's a small net gain in the class 195 fleet as a consequence of no longer needing to resource Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central diagrams, which wasn't planned for until recently.

Indeed. 3 circuits but in theory they were all due to be 5 coaches, so 6 units. Quite a useful little boost, seeing as there's now a fat chance of the Treasury signing off on the follow-up order that was mooted.

This effectively consumes a small portion of the 15 number intended to be released three years ago.

It requires 4 units more than the service currently does (comparisons with pre-Covid are difficult as the service was a mixture of single and double sets).

They would be able to displace 195s elsewhere too without having to move away from the current bases, if there were too many of them long term. For example they could work the stopping service between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield

They already do cover a lot of those diagrams, and being able to time all the Hope Valley and New Mills stoppers as 195s certainly wouldn't hurt.

or Darlington and Saltburn.

Not an impossible prospect, but that would require quite a lot of crew to be trained just to use up 2 units. Heaton don't currently maintain any 195s so you'd probably need additional training or facilities there, or else additional ECSs between Darlington and York.

Once the Trans-Pennine wires are up, rather than trying to squeeze the 185s into a use they aren't suitable for, we should let Irish Railways take them.

Once the wires are up it will be time to retire them!

 

[Starmill]

Not an impossible prospect, but that would require quite a lot of crew to be trained just to use up 2 units. Heaton don't currently maintain any 195s so you'd probably need additional training or facilities there, or else additional ECSs between Darlington and York.

I was actually getting at, in both cases, using a handful of 185s for the stopping services, either to displace 150s and 156s directly or to do so via 195 release, I just didn't set it out particularly clearly! There will need to be other parallel efforts obviously, there is loads of this work. But in Scotland the plan for how to withdraw 156s within 5 years is becoming clearer.

 

[QSK19]

OK, how about New Zealand... or Iran? Both have taken our cast-offs before!

Or how about EMR? They’re popular when it comes to receiving cast-offs for their regional services. Mind you, on the note of EMR, this must surely confirm without doubt that the 158s are staying... any chances of the 185s running the Nottingham-Liverpool route are definitely, definitely null and void now in light of this development. I appreciate that EMR is OT; so, getting back to the subject of the thread, it’s no surprise that all the 185s are staying put.

 

[Watershed]

I was actually getting at, in both cases, using a handful of 185s for the stopping services, either to displace 150s and 156s directly or to do so via 195 release, I just didn't set it out particularly clearly! There will need to be other parallel efforts obviously, there is loads of this work. But in Scotland the plan for how to withdraw 156s within 5 years is becoming clearer.

Well I think the answer is just as valid if you used 185s for the stoppers! Albeit in that case there would the opportunity (with some joined-up thinking ) for York TPE crews to work those stoppers - those who sign to Redcar (soon Saltburn) also sign Darlington-Eaglescliffe. Of course, that would leave you with an excess of Northern crew in Darlington/Middlesbrough.

 

[D6130]

Once the Trans-Pennine wires are up, rather than trying to squeeze the 185s into a use they aren't suitable for, we should let Irish Railways take them.

I'm rather surprised that IE' are interested in the 185s. They would cost an awful lot of money to convert to Irish gauge....quite possibly needing new bogies as well as wheelsets.

 

[notadriver]

Especially not a 15 unit fleet (not convinced that 15 is small enough to be considered a microfleet) of heavy, overpowered units.

Once the Trans-Pennine wires are up, rather than trying to squeeze the 185s into a use they aren't suitable for, we should let Irish Railways take them.

I don’t believe the 185s are overpowered on this 2021 railway. When introduced in 2006 compared to other DMUs, absolutely.

 

[Killingworth]

I don’t believe the 185s are overpowered on this 2021 railway. When introduced in 2006 compared to other DMUs, absolutely.

Overweight for many lines is the big issue

 

[VauxhallNova]

Does anyone know if this means TPE will finally be able to get rid of the Nova 3 fleet?

 

[IanXC]

The list below shows the number of circuits for the 185-operated service groups that will be running in December 22:

• MAN-HUD - 2 circuits
• HUD-LDS - 2 circuits
• MIA-RCC - 7 circuits
• MAN-SCA - 5 circuits
• LIV-HUL - 6 circuits
• LIV-CLE - 8 circuits

Now whilst the first 2 services will always be single units due to platforming constraints, all the rest ought to be doubles. If so, you would need 56 units out in service each day. There are only 51 units in the fleet, with 4 sets on maintenance on weekdays and 6 on weekends.

Piccadilly to Huddersfield is highly likely to be Piccadilly to Wakefield Kirkgate, making it 3 circuits in order to run 6 cars, making it a total of 6 sets.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm rather surprised that IE' are interested in the 185s. They would cost an awful lot of money to convert to Irish gauge....quite possibly needing new bogies as well as wheelsets.

In the past when stock has been transferred between GB and the island of Ireland, weren't bogie swaps the usual method?
Of course in the case of the 185s this would likely mean having to commission new-build bogies, which wouldn't come cheap.

The Ireland thing was intended as slightly tongue-in-cheek... although there was a suggestion a couple of years ago that IE were looking at GB units to cover a shortage. Alas the world has changed somewhat in the meantime!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I tried to work out TPE rough fleet needs based on the latest timetable proposals, MRTF and the Scarborough / Hull swap. I ended up with excess 185s to the order of 15 or so, I.e. the amount planned to be released. Diversions for the TPE upgrade will increase turn length and therefore fleet needs but i do find it odd that at a time when the industry is being told to cut costs TPE's fleet costs will balloon.

Oh well great news for TPE passengers!

Indeed ORR 2020-21 Rail Industry Finance report quotes TPE's rolling stock costs increasing to £154m from £67m two years earlier due to leasing the Nova stock. Anyhow should be grateful they want to keep people on trains whilst TPU is in progress rather than sticking them on a bus.

 

[Watershed]

Piccadilly to Huddersfield is highly likely to be Piccadilly to Wakefield Kirkgate, making it 3 circuits in order to run 6 cars, making it a total of 6 sets.

Well it depends how far into the future you want to go - as it also won't be terminating at Kirkgate forever. But December 22 is a reasonable shout in my view, seeing as the current contract (and 185 lease extension) expires at the end of that timetable.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps in 2023/24 the whole 185 fleet will be withdrawn from TPE operations and sent southwards; possibly to GWR, Chiltern or SWT, with an additional order of around 25-30 extra 802 sets to replace them on the TPE network.

The cost of a big new order for extra 802s would be redeemed to an extent by not having to pay as much for fuel as they do for 185s. I'm guessing an 802 is lighter per coach than a 185, so this would surely mean a reduction in operating costs too.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps in 2023/24 the whole 185 fleet will be withdrawn from TPE operations and sent southwards; possibly to GWR, Chiltern or SWT, with an additional order of around 25-30 extra 802 sets to replace them on the TPE network.

The cost of a big new order for extra 802s would be redeemed to an extent by not having to pay as much for fuel as they do for 185s. I'm guessing an 802 is lighter per coach than a 185, so this would surely mean a reduction in operating costs too.

This isn't really the place for speculation but you seem to be ignoring the increase in operating costs this would lead to at GWR, Chiltern or SWR, none of which need or want the 185s, which were purpose built for the particular demands of the route they operate.

Depot arrangements wouldn't exactly be straightforward either with a need to rebuild Ardwick and York to house 802s and arrange a transfer of those depots from Siemens to Hitachi.

 

[CAF397]

I wouldn't worry about Ardwick. HS2 Phase 2b has the line transitioning from ground to tunnel right on the current site of the depot.

 

[XAM2175]

Does anyone know if this means TPE will finally be able to get rid of the Nova 3 fleet?

It does not mean that.