Cancelled - "bridge being open for river traffic"

[DeeGee]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this.

I've been looking at the train times through Grimsby Town this lunchtime on RTT, and I've noticed that the 1241 train to Cleethorpes, and the one that that unit makes up going back in the other direction 1326 from CLE have both been cancelled, cut short at Doncaster, because a "bridge was open for river traffic."

I don't think I've ever seen that before. Which bridge would it be? The swing bridge over the Keadby Canal? I'm guessing it must be something between Donny and Scunny.

I'm surprised that the operation of the railway doesn't take precedence - I'm not sure I've ever seen much traffic on that waterway, and that which is is surely only pleasure craft?

I'm also surprised its resulted in cancellation of the service from Donny, there's a good half an hour to turn round at Cleethorpes, surely the bridge wasn't going to be open for that long?

I'll be honest, I don't understand timings and diagrams and the like, just really surprised to see this particular thing arise.

 

[Townsend Hook]

The Keadby bridge has a habit of not wanting to close again after it has opened. Can’t say whether this is what happened in this case, but it wouldn’t be particularly unusual.

 

[DeeGee]

That would make sense, certainly.

If it's dodgy to that extent, I don't imagine it opens often, then?

 

[The exile]

I'm surprised that the operation of the railway doesn't take precedence - I'm not sure I've ever seen much traffic on that waterway, and that which is is surely only pleasure craft?

The right of navigation will have existed before the railway, so can’t be ridden too roughshod over!

 

[DeeGee]

The right of navigation will have existed before the railway, so can’t be ridden too roughshod over!

I can understand the logic of that, but is that really the case?

There'll be historic trackways that predate the Railway but cross its route, and the railway takes precedence over those, doesn't it?

 

[snowball]

I can understand the logic of that, but is that really the case?

There'll be historic trackways that predate the Railway but cross its route, and the railway takes precedence over those, doesn't it?

The original Act authorising the railway will probably have specifically permitted their closure. The existence of alternative routes will have been a factor in allowing it.

 

[The exile]

I can understand the logic of that, but is that really the case?

There'll be historic trackways that predate the Railway but cross its route, and the railway takes precedence over those, doesn't it?

The navigation authorities had / have a lot of clout and legal status - historically much more ( in general) than any authority looking after roads. The right to use “ historic trackways” crossing railway lines still exists - but it is generally a good idea to give way to trains!

 

[unlevel42]

The Keadby bridge has a habit of not wanting to close again after it has opened. Can’t say whether this is what happened in this case, but it wouldn’t be particularly unusual.

The "Keadby bridge" last opened in 1956.
The Vazon Sliding Railway Bridge crosses the Stainforth and Keadby Canal very close to where it enters the Trent.
Photograph taken by Andy Dyer on canalplan.uk
The Keadby Bridge (King George V Bridge) crosses the Trent and no longer lifts.
Both bridges are at Keadby, nearest station Althorpe, Lincolnshire.

 

[DeeGee]

The "Keadby bridge" last opened in 1956.
The Vazon Sliding Railway Bridge crosses the Stainforth and Keadby Canal very close to where it enters the Trent.
The Keadby Bridge (King George V Bridge) crosses the Trent and no longer lifts.
Both bridges are at Keadby, nearest station Althorpe, Lincolnshire.
Photograph taken by Andy Dyer on canalplan.uk

Thanks for that photo. That's a view I'm not likely to ever see.

I was thinking of the Vazon Sliding bridge when I asked the original question.

 

[merry]

The Vazon sliding bridge had a fault earlier this year for some time, and Canal River trust (CRT) were only opening it by prior arrangement (latterly not at all) from late July to 18 Nov. However, that might not be relevant, as it was working again from 18 Nov...
Checking CRT notices, i see there was an inspection of bridge 78 [canal numbers!] by NR from 7-9 Dec (i.e. up to today) using a pontoon, it may have been necessary to close to rail traffic whilst working underneath or investigating something. No notices about the Vazons bridge [no. 83 I think].

 

[AlbertBeale]

It's common, when bridging waterways (for road or rail) which have historically been used for navigation to give precedence to waterborne traffic where there is a potential conflict. Tower Bridge in London is a classic example - anyone on a vessel which needs the bridge lifted can demand that it is (though these days they need to give something like a day's notice rather than just turning up, as was once the case). I believe a high-security convoy with a US presdent on board was split, half on each side of the bridge, once a few decades back, which sent them into quite a tizzy. The bridgemaster couldn't or wouldn't override their legal duty to lift the bridge for a sailing boat which was passing through.

 

[Gloster]

It was May 1997 and Bill Clinton was returning from lunch with Tony Blair. A sailing barge called Gladys had arranged for the bridge to be opened and opened it was.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Tower Bridge in London is a classic example - anyone on a vessel which needs the bridge lifted can demand that it is (though these days they need to give something like a day's notice rather than just turning up, as was once the case). I believe a high-security convoy with a US presdent on board was split, half on each side of the bridge, once a few decades back, which sent them into quite a tizzy.

Thought it was part of the plot from the 2016 film "London has Fallen".

Checking CRT notices, i see there was an inspection of bridge 78 [canal numbers!] by NR from 7-9 Dec (i.e. up to today) using a pontoon, it may have been necessary to close to rail traffic whilst working underneath or investigating something.

Anyhoo, getting back on topic, where exactly is "Bridge 78" if indeed this was the one that was causing the bother? Somewhere near Thorne?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I’ve heard an American response was “how good of you to have arranged to show the bridge opening”.

 

[Towers]

Good!

It was May 1997 and Bill Clinton was returning from lunch with Tony Blair. A sailing barge called Gladys had arranged for the bridge to be opened and opened it was.

Good

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I can understand the logic of that, but is that really the case?

There'll be historic trackways that predate the Railway but cross its route, and the railway takes precedence over those, doesn't it?

Good Question

 

[Oxfordblues]

I wonder if any boaters here in Oxford could demand opening of the Sheepwash Stream bridge even if a train to/from Bletchley was due?

 

[reach123y]

Caused by a bridge fault - closed for around a couple of hours.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Caused by a bridge fault - closed for around a couple of hours.

Where was this?

 

[Starmill]

There'll be historic trackways that predate the Railway but cross its route, and the railway takes precedence over those, doesn't it?

Generally not. If a railway infrastructure manager wants to close highway level crossing they will be required to get the necessary consents. Not even the railway can just decide to close or divert a highway.

The difference is that cars will stop for trains but trains stop for watercraft.

 

[reach123y]

According to Northern Assist it was between Althorpe and Crowle which would be the one over the canal and not the River Trent.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

According to Northern Assist it was between Althorpe and Crowle which would be the one over the canal and not the River Trent.

So, is that Keadby Canal Bridge?

 

[edwin_m]

The navigation authorities had / have a lot of clout and legal status - historically much more ( in general) than any authority looking after roads. The right to use “ historic trackways” crossing railway lines still exists - but it is generally a good idea to give way to trains!

The reason for the M8 being on a big viaduct at Glasgow Airport was the historic navigation rights on the White Cart (it's a river, not some kind of vehicle) when it was built in the 1960s. According to something I found on the internet when researching for the tram-train/PRT project, this right has now been extinguished.

 

[weepingwillowb]

The Vazon sliding bridge?
Vazon sliding bridge © Chris Allen :: Geograph Britain and Ireland

3 Images titled: Vazon sliding railway bridge in SE8211 :: Geograph Britain and Ireland

Trans Pennine Express train on the Vazon... © Graham Hogg cc-by-sa/2.0 :: Geograph Britain and Ireland

 

[John Webb]

.....The difference is that cars will stop for trains but trains stop for watercraft.

The main reason for water craft having precedence is that it is much harder to stop vessels safely in water than trains on fixed rails or vehicles on a road.

 

[dk1]

Was interesting a few years ago when Network Rail welded the rails & refused to swing Trowse Bridge in Norwich. Had to agree with their defence that it was much much cheaper to pay fines to the river authority than it was to the TOCs when the blasted thing failed to close.

 

[Ediswan]

Was interesting a few years ago when Network Rail welded the rails & refused to swing Trowse Bridge in Norwich. Had to agree with their defence that it was much much cheaper to pay fines to the river authority than it was to the TOCs when the blasted thing failed to close.

Is this fact. I searched Google and found nothing. I did find protests from this year at the suggestion of welding the lifiting mechanism of the next upstream (road) bridge.

 

[lincolnshire]

The "Keadby bridge" last opened in 1956.
The Vazon Sliding Railway Bridge crosses the Stainforth and Keadby Canal very close to where it enters the Trent.
Photograph taken by Andy Dyer on canalplan.uk
The Keadby Bridge (King George V Bridge) crosses the Trent and no longer lifts.
Both bridges are at Keadby, nearest station Althorpe, Lincolnshire.

The railway bridge in the open to canal position in the picture is actually called Keadby Canal Drawbridge and the one over the River Trent at Althorpe is call Keadby River Bridge. The actual Vason Bridge is the one in the distance in the picture next to the white painted house on the right which is called Vason House and is owned by the Canal & Rivers trust and is worked by the boaters themselves.

The Vazon sliding bridge had a fault earlier this year for some time, and Canal River trust (CRT) were only opening it by prior arrangement (latterly not at all) from late July to 18 Nov. However, that might not be relevant, as it was working again from 18 Nov...
Checking CRT notices, i see there was an inspection of bridge 78 [canal numbers!] by NR from 7-9 Dec (i.e. up to today) using a pontoon, it may have been necessary to close to rail traffic whilst working underneath or investigating something. No notices about the Vazons bridge [no. 83 I think].

One of the two hauling wire ropes snapped so that mean,t that the bridge was unable to open as required for canal boats to pass through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this.

I've been looking at the train times through Grimsby Town this lunchtime on RTT, and I've noticed that the 1241 train to Cleethorpes, and the one that that unit makes up going back in the other direction 1326 from CLE have both been cancelled, cut short at Doncaster, because a "bridge was open for river traffic."

I don't think I've ever seen that before. Which bridge would it be? The swing bridge over the Keadby Canal? I'm guessing it must be something between Donny and Scunny.

I'm surprised that the operation of the railway doesn't take precedence - I'm not sure I've ever seen much traffic on that waterway, and that which is is surely only pleasure craft?

I'm also surprised its resulted in cancellation of the service from Donny, there's a good half an hour to turn round at Cleethorpes, surely the bridge wasn't going to be open for that long?

I'll be honest, I don't understand timings and diagrams and the like, just really surprised to see this particular thing arise.

I presume that they don,t have bridge open for canal traffic in the system? I have seen bridge open for river traffic used for when Goole Swing Bridge has to open for ships to pass through been displayed at Doncaster Station in the past.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There will be no question of boats having precedence on the Stainforth & Keadby. A narrowboat or cruiser can easily stop within a few seconds. There will be no historic rights here - the S&K, like most canals, was eventually owned by a railway company which would have rescinded any historic rights if there were any (I don't know of any having been in place for railways that crossed canals, though rivers are a different kettle of fish). I have a vague recollection that the S&K actually converted itself into a railway company, seeing the coming thing, but I may be wrong.

We took our boat past this bridge a few years back. We just waited for the bridge-keeper to open up and signal us through. A couple of Pacers went through while we were waiting. Believe me, after the trip up the tidal Trent, any boater will be plenty happy to wait a few minutes here.

I wonder if any boaters here in Oxford could demand opening of the Sheepwash Stream bridge even if a train to/from Bletchley was due?

No, I believe that (many years ago) boaters were expected to wait for a gap between trains. Didn't Rolt go through that bridge in Narrow Boat?

 

[dk1]

Is this fact. I searched Google and found nothing. I did find protests from this year at the suggestion of welding the lifiting mechanism of the next upstream (road) bridge.

Yes, must have been 15-20 years ago. It was quite prolific local news at the time. The bridge was very troublesome since new in 1986 when it was lifted with the jacks in.