Potential weather disruption Tuesday 7th onwards - Storm Barra

[PG]

It's all well and good tossing a bit of salt water over a train in a testing facility, but they should've sent prototypes up and down Dawlish during storms.

Ideally yes, but how do you do that without blocking the line when they break down??

 

[muz379]

Ideally yes, but how do you do that without blocking the line when they break down??

Team of fitters on board that can get it going again , or something close by that can drag it out of the way if it fails . Generally at least the former is fairly standard with any sort of type testing .

 

[800001]

40mph Blanket Speed Restriction imposed on ECML North between Newcastle & Edinburgh.

Was 80mph north of Newcastle.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Ideally yes, but how do you do that without blocking the line when they break down??

Do it overnight. Failing that, a test train breaking down is better than one failing in passenger service.

 

[Busaholic]

There’s still properties without power after Arwen, still roads and facilities closed. It’s a standard autumn storm. Force 10 is roughly 55-60, Arwen was force 12 on the scale, nigh on 100mph and gusting at 70mph.

It’s British wind, something we’re equipped for and deal with well.

Arwen was a storm from the North, which is very unusual I believe. Listening to a meteoroligist on the radio a couple of days ago, she bracketed it with a storm in the 1980s and also the North Sea Floods of 1953 which caused such devastation and loss of life.

 

[northernbelle]

There reaches a point when the fundamental design principle of something cannot be overcome with software or other mitigations. The basic science is that salt water and electricity do not mix - the fact that modern trains have equipment designed to conduct electricity all over the place - on the roof, between vehicles, under the floor - means they are going to mix with sea water less readily than something more mechanical. I was surprised to see Hitachi selling their products as 'Dawlish proof' - I wouldn't haven taken that PR risk even if I were convinced it were true.

Given where rolling stock design has gone (and is going) with hybrid, battery and bi-mode rolling stock all based on electrically driven traction motors and other equipment, I'm struggling to see how future designs can best mitigate the 'Dawlish Sea Wall' problem - to me the ultimate solution is actually in the railway infrastructure, whether that's covering it over at the worst points or further work on wave return walls.

More durable diesel-only rolling stock is all very well, but it has no future on the railway.

 

[Annetts key]

There reaches a point when the fundamental design principle of something cannot be overcome with software or other mitigations. The basic science is that salt water and electricity do not mix - the fact that modern trains have equipment designed to conduct electricity all over the place - on the roof, between vehicles, under the floor - means they are going to mix with sea water less readily than something more mechanical. I was surprised to see Hitachi selling their products as 'Dawlish proof' - I wouldn't haven taken that PR risk even if I were convinced it were true.

Given where rolling stock design has gone (and is going) with hybrid, battery and bi-mode rolling stock all based on electrically driven traction motors and other equipment, I'm struggling to see how future designs can best mitigate the 'Dawlish Sea Wall' problem - to me the ultimate solution is actually in the railway infrastructure, whether that's covering it over at the worst points or further work on wave return walls.

More durable diesel-only rolling stock is all very well, but it has no future on the railway.

You do know that diesel electric trains like HSTs have electric traction motors, and three-phase train supply cables between each vehicle?

It is possible for trains that are not OHL types to be engineered to survive and operate in areas like Dawlish.

I don’t know if the same is possible for OHL trains. As the high voltage of OHL requires good quality insulators, and the surface of said insulation has to be kept clear of dirt (including salt). It’s also more difficult to make all the high voltage equipment waterproof.

 

[northernbelle]

You do know that diesel electric trains like HSTs have electric traction motors, and three-phase train supply cables between each vehicle?

It is possible for trains that are not OHL types to be engineered to survive and operate in areas like Dawlish.

I don’t know if the same is possible for OHL trains. As the high voltage of OHL requires good quality insulators, and the surface of said insulation has to be kept clear of dirt (including salt). It’s also more difficult to make all the high voltage equipment waterproof.

I'm well aware thank you, but what they don't have is rheostatic braking which most (all?) modern diesel-electric types have - these are the root of the problems faced by both IETs and Voyagers on the sea wall.

I should also add that other types - including HSTs - have not been infallible to engines shutting down when hit by a wave (that's a wave, not spray!). Over the years I've known a number of cancellations due to smashed windscreens, not to mention the 143 that had several windows penetrated by sea water.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm well aware thank you, but what they don't have is rheostatic braking which most (all?) modern diesel-electric types have - these are the root of the problems faced by both IETs and Voyagers on the sea wall.

I should also add that other types - including HSTs - have not been infallible to engines shutting down when hit by a wave (that's a wave, not spray!). Over the years I've known a number of cancellations due to smashed windscreens, not to mention the 143 that had several windows penetrated by sea water.

I don’t see any fundamental reason why a train with rheostatic braking can’t be designed to cope with the conditions at Dawlish.

Again, if designed correctly, diesel engines vehicles/locos should be able to cope with spray and waves crashing over them.

Same applies to glass windows.

However, it all costs more money. And the trains are normally designed for normal conditions, with maybe a little bit of extra improvements to cope with spay. But not the conditions that occasionally occur at Dawlish, such as the waves during this storm.

Companies do a cost/risk calculation. Because they don’t want to spend more money than they have to.

 

[Falcon1200]

Over the years I've known a number of cancellations due to smashed windscreens, not to mention the 143 that had several windows penetrated by sea water.

When strong winds are forecast and coincide with high tides, it has become standard practice to withdraw train services along the sea walls at Saltcoats and Craigendoran. One of the reasons is that. apart from the obvious danger of waves causing trains to fail in a dangerous location, there is also the very real risk of sea-borne debris, which can include some quite large pieces of wood, striking trains. I'm not sure that any train design can safely withstand such treatment !

 

[yorksrob]

When strong winds are forecast and coincide with high tides, it has become standard practice to withdraw train services along the sea walls at Saltcoats and Craigendoran. One of the reasons is that. apart from the obvious danger of waves causing trains to fail in a dangerous location, there is also the very real risk of sea-borne debris, which can include some quite large pieces of wood, striking trains. I'm not sure that any train design can safely withstand such treatment !

There's an armour plated Royal carriage built for King George IV at the NRM that might stand a chance.

That aside, the real solution is a route capable of taking diversions, as it's always been.

 

[irish_rail]

Would a train with an engine at either end (HST esq) be any better able to cope with Dawlish? Maybe some of the electrics could be concealed within a power car rather than being up on the roof? Is this a situation where loco or power cars would be more effective? I'm talking new stock here BTW not dusting off locos and coaches from the 70s.

 

[Annetts key]

I must say, I smile at the comments about the solution being an alternative route. If there is not enough money to design a train that can cope with salt water waves going over it, why do you think there is going to be a massive amount of money available to put in a brand new railway line?

The questions now, given that three Hitachi trains failed, are:
Is GWR (First) going to withdraw 80X trains during similar weather conditions in the future?
Are Hitachi going to make improvements to the 80X fleet so that they are more able to cope with these weather conditions?

 

[Meerkat]

The obvious bodge, as mentioned earlier, is to have a Thunderbird in the area (provided by Hitachi if they can't sneak through a wave vs spray loophole). Faster rescues and if its really bad reduce the service and tow them through.

Or do it like you would as a pedestrian - dont stop at Dawlish and fettle the line so they can run through faster!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The obvious bodge, as mentioned earlier, is to have a Thunderbird in the area (provided by Hitachi if they can't sneak through a wave vs spray loophole). Faster rescues and if its really bad reduce the service and tow them through.

Or do it like you would as a pedestrian - dont stop at Dawlish and fettle the line so they can run through faster!!

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-should-gwr-do-about-severe-conditions-on-dawlish.225828/