Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Starmill]

I'm unclear exactly how many properties are in scope but it could be as many as 30 here.

Trying to include people's property for compulsory purchase without first exhausting any alternative options and demonstrating that it's actually required could see an application for an Order rejected completely. Of course I'm sure they will not be making the mistake of proposing trying to overturn people's lives without the proper evidence but you can't just go "they'll only be £150k each" and buy them because that's an easy way out.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I can not see those houses getting compulsory purchased. An innovative approach will be used.

 

[zwk500]

I suspect that making an offer on the open market would be much less expensive than going through the Compulsory purchase process - even if the offer had to be substantially above the market value to persuade people to move. However depopulating an entire street is a very dramatic step to take and one that will have very large possible consequences, many of which can't be accurately accounted for until they happen.

A physical barrier, sympathetic design and compensation amount will carry less variables and risk to the project.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A physical barrier, sympathetic design and compensation amount will carry less variables and risk to the project.

Agreed. This has to be the most likely approach.

 

[BrianW]

Do we know how they plan to path additional trains on the 2 track section east of Westtown? One of the reasons I was in favour of new build all the way to Leeds is I didn't think there was space for additional trains on the route through Batley and Morley and at Leeds itself

I imagine it may be hoped that a Leeds Trams scheme will 'free up' some train platforms by removing (relocating) some currently heavy-rail services?

 

[zwk500]

I imagine it may be hoped that a Leeds Trams scheme will 'free up' some train platforms by removing (relocating) some currently heavy-rail services?

Why would this round of a Leeds Transit system come up with a different answer to the however-many there have been before?

 

[snowball]

The houses under discussion at Mossley are on the right between 38:15 and 38:30 in this cab video.

 

[BrianW]

Why would this round of a Leeds Transit system come up with a different answer to the however-many there have been before?

I guess naively I thought of Merseyrail, Manchester Victoria and Newcastle Metro as 'reifocusing' in something like that kind of 'integrated' way.

I also don't see any 'review' as a route necessarily to a different answer, but to ('dither and') delay and thereby transfer of expenditure from CapEx to Consultants. It seemed so much more straightforward in the past in recognising the contributions of McAlpine or Marples . Sceptic or septic?

Leeds MPs: https://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/mgmemberindexmp.aspx?bcr=1
Leeds Council make-up: https://www.leeds.gov.uk/your-council/elections/political-make-up

 

[Spartacus]

I imagine it may be hoped that a Leeds Trams scheme will 'free up' some train platforms by removing (relocating) some currently heavy-rail services?

I think the last plan I saw for this area was about the tram coming down the Spen Valley to Dewsbury then heading towards Leeds not going anywhere near Batley or Morley, with the possibility of a branch towards Huddersfield from both.

2 track from Westtown could be solved by having loops at Batley and adjusting the station location, which I believe has been looked at. It'd be pretty minor compared to everything else.

 

[sjpowermac]

Photo of the Mossley cottages here.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can not see those houses getting compulsory purchased. An innovative approach will be used.

Is the right answer.

I imagine it may be hoped that a Leeds Trams scheme will 'free up' some train platforms by removing (relocating) some currently heavy-rail services?

Which local services do you suggest converting to tram?

 

[YorksLad12]

Which local services do you suggest converting to tram?

That's a whole different set of threads. Danger, Will Robinson!

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is an infrastructure thread for actual updates regarding TPE route upgrade & electrification.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything speculative, please use the Speculative Discussion section.

Thanks

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The houses under discussion at Mossley are on the right between 38:15 and 38:30 in this cab video.

Looking through that video there looks like no structural encumbrances between Leeds and Church Fenton so seems bizarre NR haven't pushed it as project to showcase how well they can deliver electrification over a simple route alignment and get more services running under the juice.

 

[greyman42]

Looking through that video there looks like no structural encumbrances between Leeds and Church Fenton so seems bizarre NR haven't pushed it as project to showcase how well they can deliver electrification over a simple route alignment and get more services running under the juice.

Is it something to do with waiting for four tracking?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it something to do with waiting for four tracking?

Some of the bridges were raised before the Grayling "pause" in work happened.
Another reason given at the time was that the electrification didn't include any track upgrades (which have been significant Victoria-Stalybridge, and is now planned Huddersfield-Dewsbury).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Is it something to do with waiting for four tracking?

It was built with bridges four tracks wide but only two were ever installed it what lends itself to such a simple electrification job and not sure it has the traffic over most of its length to warrant four tracking other than maybe section into Leeds and that would be fraught with issues as bas as Castlefield.

 

[geordieblue]

Not sure it has the traffic over most of its length to warrant four tracking other than maybe section into Leeds and that would be fraught with issues as bas as Castlefield.

Leeds-Church Fenton has I think two Northern services, five Transpennine services and one Crosscountry service per hour as well as stock movements to Neville Hill depot and some freight. This is one of the busiest bits of two track railway in the north and loops to help regulate the Northern stoppers would seriously help.

 

[Meerkat]

Looking through that video there looks like no structural encumbrances between Leeds and Church Fenton so seems bizarre NR haven't pushed it as project to showcase how well they can deliver electrification over a simple route alignment and get more services running under the juice.

No point even planning it until they knew whether the HS2 bypass was on its way and whether NPR would be needing to use that bit or route too.
Now they have a much better idea of long term usage they can give the money holders some options....

 

[Spartacus]

Looking through that video there looks like no structural encumbrances between Leeds and Church Fenton so seems bizarre NR haven't pushed it as project to showcase how well they can deliver electrification over a simple route alignment and get more services running under the juice.

You can look at it the other way. If there were problems with the easy bit that might see the rest cancelled after only the 'easy' bit had been done, but if there ARE problems with the difficult bits that's not likely to see the easy bit cancelled, as it would still be able to be agued that it will still be easy to do that last bit.

 

[twin turbo]

No point even planning it until they knew whether the HS2 bypass was on its way and whether NPR would be needing to use that bit or route too.
Now they have a much better idea of long term usage they can give the money holders some options....

Presumably NPR could still use what would have been the HS2 route to take out the curve at Church Fenton if required as the land is still safe guarded.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You can look at it the other way. If there were problems with the easy bit that might see the rest cancelled after only the 'easy' bit had been done, but if there ARE problems with the difficult bits that's not likely to see the easy bit cancelled, as it would still be able to be agued that it will still be easy to do that last bit.

You should be a politician.

Anyhow if that was the case what is the point of only going to Church Fenton currently. Surely what we should be doing is getting the wires up where we can as quickly as possible to deliver effect carbon reduction as fast as possible especially where the route already has BiMode stock.

 

[Spartacus]

You should be a politician.

Anyhow if that was the case what is the point of only going to Church Fenton currently. Surely what we should be doing is getting the wires up where we can as quickly as possible to deliver effect carbon reduction as fast as possible especially where the route already has BiMode stock.

You can wire to Church Fenton without major disruption, any further and you end up having to divert a lot via Milford & Castleford.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You can wire to Church Fenton without major disruption, any further and you end up having to divert a lot via Milford & Castleford.

better not wire anything else then if we are concerned by disruption.

Seriously the industry needs to get a lot smarter at getting most out of access it does get and it needs to gear up the supply chain to be able to deliver at the scale SBB did see youtube video. Might be expensive but then so are the costs for paying out sch4 as well as the impact on revenue whilst works are happening.

 

[507020]

better not wire anything else then if we are concerned by disruption.

Seriously the industry needs to get a lot smarter at getting most out of access it does get and it needs to gear up the supply chain to be able to deliver at the scale SBB did see youtube video. Might be expensive but then so are the costs for paying out sch4 as well as the impact on revenue whilst works are happening.

It’s expensive to continue burning Diesel and maintaining Diesel stock while we keep stalling with electrification. What is the impact of electrification on revenue again?

 

[snowball]

It’s expensive to continue burning Diesel and maintaining Diesel stock while we keep stalling with electrification. What is the impact of electrification on revenue again?

Well some freight companies right now are using diesel traction where a few months ago they were using electric, because artificialities in the market make it cheaper for them.

 

[507020]

Well some freight companies right now are using diesel traction where a few months ago they were using electric, because artificialities in the market make it cheaper for them.

Given that they are artificial, would it not be cheaper to remove these artificialities? I suspect the answer is yes but some of them are so deeply embedded in the structure of the privatised railway. The concept of paying leasing costs is purely an artificiality.

 

[LittleAH]

better not wire anything else then if we are concerned by disruption.

Seriously the industry needs to get a lot smarter at getting most out of access it does get and it needs to gear up the supply chain to be able to deliver at the scale SBB did see youtube video. Might be expensive but then so are the costs for paying out sch4 as well as the impact on revenue whilst works are happening.

The entire route will be wired. May as well wire the easy bits first with the planning for the difficult bits taking more time. Seems to be a fair few people working on it and you don't do that if it's getting canned.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the impact of electrification on revenue again?

Nil.

The impact of more frequent / quicker services is notable though.

 

[quantinghome]

2 track from Westtown could be solved by having loops at Batley and adjusting the station location, which I believe has been looked at. It'd be pretty minor compared to everything else.

I'm not a timetable planner, but there would appear to be significant problems with a loop at Batley.

Loops at Batley wouldn't be long enough to be 'dynamic' i.e. the stopping train would have to wait in the loop until the fast train had overtaken. Assuming 3 minute headways between trains, that's a minimum six minute delay.

To make matters worse, the journey time difference between fast trains and stoppers from Batley to Leeds would mean that each stopping train takes up 3 fast train paths. That means the fast trains would have to be flighted together to maximise capacity, which means the Batley delay goes up to 9 minutes as it waits for two fast trains to pass.

But it gets worse. Batley is a bad location for a loop, as it's not that far north of the four-track section from Huddersfield to Westtown. The stopping train coming from Huddersfield towards Leeds will arrive at Dewsbury just behind a fast train, with the next fast train still some way behind. This means the stopping train would have to wait even longer at Batley to allow the fast train to catch up and overtake.

A better bet might be to put a loop in at Morley, which is more in the middle of the two-track section. But it would still mean a much slower stopping service, and a fantastically complex timetable with little room for failure and recovery.