What will happen to EMR's intercity fleet when MML is fully electrified?

[SouthEastBuses]

What will happen to EMR's intercity fleet when MML is fully electrified? Personally, I think most of the 810s will have their diesel capability removed (making them EMUs), with only some 810s still being bi-mode, for use on extensions such as Scarborough where no electrification is planned.

 

[JonathanH]

with only some 810s still being bi-mode, for use on extensions such as Scarborough where no electrification is planned.

I think we can be clear that EMR won't be running to Scarborough.

What will happen to EMR's intercity fleet when MML is fully electrified?

They may well need to keep the diesel capability for diversions via Corby, Castle Donington and the Erewash Valley.

Anyway, it is all a long way off and there could be other changes that happen before the removal of the generating units needs to be considered. It could e that the battery trial in an 802 unit is successful and batteries replace the diesel generating units.

 

[tbtc]

They could go elsewhere (someone will be along to suggest XC before long) but the reason that they are 810s rather than 802s is to take advantage of the limited platform space at St Pancras, where 10x24m can use the length more efficiently, so any replacement stock for the MML would presumably be best being built as 5x24m long anyway, so why move them anywhere else when you'd have to order bespoke trains to replace them?

Just take the engines out of most of them and they'll be fine - but it'll take a long time until the whole MML is electrified, and the bi-mode capabilities mean that they can run on electric where possible (unlike the days of things like the ECML electrification where Edinburgh - London trains had to be 100% diesel even when the line was 99% electrified)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Logic would be to replace them with straight EMUs and transfer them to XC to get rid of some Voyagers.

@tbtc Glad to be of service All train orders are bespoke, so now Hitachi have built a 24m unit they will be able to do it again.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I think we can be clear that EMR won't be running to Scarborough.



They may well need to keep the diesel capability for diversions via Corby, Castle Donington and the Erewash Valley.

Anyway, it is all a long way off and there could be other changes that happen before the removal of the generating units needs to be considered. It could e that the battery trial in an 802 unit is successful and batteries replace the diesel generating units.

EMR do run to Scarborough during the summer...

About the second and third point, true, forgot about them!

 

[JonathanH]

EMR do run to Scarborough during the summer...

EMT used to. It has been dropped from the EMR franchise / contract.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

EMT used to. It has been dropped from the EMR franchise / contract.

Ah ok, didn't know about that

 

[Dr Hoo]

What is meant by 'fully electrified'?

Like the ECML (Joint Line) and GWML (Berks & Hants) the MML has very useful diversionary capability via Manton, Castle Donington, the Erewash Valley and Beighton that is unlikely to be electrified as soon as the core route.

I can see the bi-modes being genuinely useful on their home turf for quite a few years. This will include the major re-building work at East Midlands Parkway/Trent in about twenty years time. This bit has no realistic diversion.

 

[irish_rail]

Hopefully they won't be foisted on the Western, but I rather suspect they will be. Lots more short 5 car 80x trains isn't really much use to any IC route radiating from London, especially the 810s that from what I've seen will be worse than 800s and 802s with the passengers crammed in right behind the driver.
If your an MML driver, get used to a hell of a lot of noise from the saloon. Its bad enough on the current stuff, but those 810s will apparently not have the bigger cab and so I'd guess you will actually be able to hear conversations going on behind you in acute detail! Not to mention crying babies etc etc.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

What is meant by 'fully electrified'?

Like the ECML (Joint Line) and GWML (Berks & Hants) the MML has very useful diversionary capability via Manton, Castle Donington, the Erewash Valley and Beighton that is unlikely to be electrified as soon as the core route.

I can see the bi-modes being genuinely useful on their home turf for quite a few years. This will include the major re-building work at East Midlands Parkway/Trent in about twenty years time. This bit has no realistic diversion.

London to Sheffield & Nottingham.

 

[43055]

What will happen to EMR's intercity fleet when MML is fully electrified? Personally, I think most of the 810s will have their diesel capability removed (making them EMUs), with only some 810s still being bi-mode, for use on extensions such as Scarborough where no electrification is planned.

Personally I would keep all the 810s as Bi-Mode so they can used as a common fleet. You will still need diesel for the Lincoln and Melton services as well as diversions such as round the back between Chesterfield and Sheffield, Erewash Valley and Melton.

 

[HST43257]

I believe that they should convert around 2/3 to electric only.

Personally I would keep all the 810s as Bi-Mode so they can used as a common fleet. You will still need diesel for the Lincoln and Melton services as well as diversions such as round the back between Chesterfield and Sheffield, Erewash Valley and Melton.

If some were kept as Bimode, then they could be like LNER with their 800/801 combinations seen particularly on divert days.

 

[Domh245]

I believe that they should convert around 2/3 to electric only.


If some were kept as Bimode, then they could be like LNER with their 800/801 combinations seen particularly on divert days.

I'd argue against creating a mixed fleet of electric & bi-modes, particularly where there's the prospect of semi-regular services over non-electrified sections. Removing an engine from each coach (for 2 engines per unit/1400kW) should be pursued as soon as they aren't needed to run at 125mph on Diesel on the regular. Indeed, by that point, it may be possible to replace the engines with batteries

 

[tbtc]

Logic would be to replace them with straight EMUs and transfer them to XC to get rid of some Voyagers.

@tbtc Glad to be of service

Thanks for proving my point...

But other than the tradition of suggesting that anything gets cascaded to XC, why would you want to remove 33x5x24m 125mph electric carriages from EMR and give them (roughly) 33x5x24m 125mph electric carriages instead? Is that "logic"?

Electrification wouldn't mean any great change in the fleet size or destinations served by standard off peak timetables, it won't mean any additional space at St Pancras (where trains are limited by 240m platforms, hence the reason for the 24m carriages, i.e. 2x5x24m will fill the platform), it won't mean any extra paths out of London, so any replacement EMUs would be pretty much exactly the same (i.e. 33x5x24m 125mph electric carriages)

Why go through all the disruption of removing the 810s and moving them to XC, only to train EMR staff on a new fleet of the same size?

Why can't we solve XC's problems directly, rather than relying on cascades from elsewhere, making do and mending with the fleets that other TOCs don't need any more (e.g. the Avanti Voyagers and the EMR Meridians)? Isn't that just repeating the mistakes of BR, which led to XC being the "Cinderella" operation?

 

[liamf656]

The Class 810s were specified for long term use on the Midland Mainline, and won’t need replacement for a good 20/30 years once in service.

Removing the diesel engines will cause a nightmare in planning as most early morning/late evening trips make use of diversion routes to keep up with staff knowledge

And lastly, we’re talking about IF the Midland Mainline gets electrified as far as Sheffield and Nottingham, not WHEN. I certainly don’t see it happening in the next decade or two.

My answer to this thread therefore is, that nothing will happen to the fleet, whether more lines get electrified or not. I agree with the above posters, there are bigger problems with the likes of XC that need addressing first

 

[Domh245]

And lastly, we’re talking about IF the Midland Mainline gets electrified as far as Sheffield and Nottingham, not WHEN. I certainly don’t see it happening in the next decade or two.

It's been confirmed as part of the Integrated Rail Plan, with indicative completion in the early 2030s (p134)

Whether or not you believe the government will follow through on those commitments remains to be seen, but I'm hopeful