Edinburgh-Newcastle-Cardiff-Edinburgh: possible on one ticket?

[nitten_travell]

Is it possible to go Edinburgh - Newcastle - Cardiff - Edinburgh on one ticket? Likely details are:

Sun 12 Dec: Edinburgh - Newcastle
Mon 13 Dec: Newcastle - Cardiff
Thur 16 Dec: Cardiff - Edinburgh

The trip to Cardiff is for work so my employer will cover the ticket expense. As far as I know I cannot break an outbound journey on a standard return. Is there another way (other than booking a series of singles)? My employer prefers return tickets since they offer more flexibility. I also want to avoid using CrossCountry trains as far as practical as I don't like those Voyagers!

 

[hkstudent]

Is it possible to go Edinburgh - Newcastle - Cardiff - Edinburgh on a single ticket? Likely details are:

Sun 12 Dec: Edinburgh - Newcastle
Mon 13 Dec: Newcastle - Cardiff
Thur 16 Dec: Cardiff - Edinburgh

The trip to Cardiff is for work so my employer will cover the ticket expense. As far as I know I cannot break an outbound journey on a standard return. Is there another way (other than booking a series of singles)? My employer prefers return tickets since they offer more flexibility. I also want to avoid using CrossCountry trains as far as practical as I don't like those Voyagers!

Most Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak Single or Return tickets allow break of journey on both portions including outbound of the journey.
Check the restriction code.
In OP's, code 2V is for off peak return, while anytime return has no restriction code, both allow (overnight) break of joruney

 

[Starmill]

What time do you need to depart from Newcastle on Monday morning?

I would suggest an Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off Peak Return starting on 13/12, the return portion will be valid on 16/12. This is £198.60. In addition, on 12/13, find an Edinburgh to Newcastle single for the train at your preferred time. You will find that you have many choices of Advance ticket and the sensibly priced Lumo Only or CrossCountry Only singles.

This avoids any need to be getting into the question of overnight breaks of journey on the outward potion of an off peak return. Do not get into that question when you're travelling for work, it is simply not worth it.

I recommend giving Lumo a go. They have departures from Edinburgh for Newcastle on 12/12 at 1053 and 1545. Both offer cheap tickets.

 

[hkstudent]

What time do you need to depart from Newcastle on Monday morning?

I would suggest an Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off Peak Return starting on 13/12, the return portion will be valid on 16/12. This is £198.60. In addition, on 12/13, find an Edinburgh to Newcastle single for the train at your preferred time. You will find that you have many choices of Advance ticket and the sensibly priced Lumo Only or CrossCountry Only singles.

This avoids any need to be getting into the question of overnight breaks of journey on the outward potion of an off peak return. Do not get into that question when you're travelling for work, it is simply not worth it.

I recommend giving Lumo a go. They have departures from Edinburgh for Newcastle on 12/12 at 1053, 1545 and 1852. All offer cheap tickets.

The off peak explicitly mention the allowance of overnight break of joruney for the outbound part, while anytime one has 5 day valid for outbound bit.
For avoiding XC trains, OP can go via Crewe or Manchester and change for TfW service.

Splitting the ticket will restrict OP from taking a faster via Crewe and Carlisle service back to Edinburgh

 

[Starmill]

The off peak and anytime tickets both explicitly mention the allowance of overnight break pf joruney for the outbound part.

They do. But the problem will be showing a ticket marked as having been used yesterday. And expired.

 

[hkstudent]

They do. But the problem will be showing a ticket marked as having been used yesterday. And expired.

What is needed, if being questioned, will be showing the national rail restriction code website to the staff concerned.
If gets a problem, buy a new ticket and claim for a full refund from LNER, for failure to understand the rule of overnight break of journey. There are a couple of threads debating overnight break of journey here.

Newcastle is staffed by LNER and quite some time, ungated.

 

[Starmill]

What is needed, if being questioned, will be showing the national rail restriction code website to the staff concerned.
If gets a problem, buy a new ticket and claim for a full refund from LNER, for failure to understand the rule of overnight break of journey. There are a couple of threads debating overnight break of journey here.

Newcastle is staffed by LNER and quite some time, ungated.

Why though? Why would you get into the debate at all when someone else is paying and you'll be expected to work, not worry about this. The ticket will appear to be expired at every leg all the way to Cardiff. If the OP leaves Edinburgh at a time when they could still have reached Cardiff, someone is very likely to ask why they went to Newcastle and then stopped.

 

[Alex365Dash]

If you wish to avoid (hopefully) minor disputes over ticket validity, as well as Starmill’s earlier mention of buying an additional Edinburgh to Newcastle ticket the previous day, there is also the option to purchase the Anytime Return from Edinburgh to Cardiff Central, which has 5 days of outward validity (at the quite high cost of £424) so your overnight stay isn’t going to be disputed by gateline staff.

Splitting the ticket will restrict OP from taking a faster via Crewe and Carlisle service back to Edinburgh

With a Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off-Peak Return, shouldn’t be the case as Edinburgh is the origin on the ticket.

Another travel option available to you on the return is CrossCountry from Cardiff to Birmingham then Avanti to Edinburgh. Whilst this does include a portion of CrossCountry, it’s always ran with Turbostars so saves having to travel on a Voyager, although keep in mind it does involve a change at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Haywain]

If gets a problem, buy a new ticket and claim for a full refund from LNER, for failure to understand the rule of overnight break of journey. There are a couple of threads debating overnight break of journey here.

Newcastle is staffed by LNER and quite some time, ungated

It's a bit of a wild assumption that the only difficulty that would be experienced using such a ticket would be at the Newcastle gate line. I think there is every chance that difficulty would be encountered anywhere beyond Newcastle with any operator involved.

 

[Hadders]

The outward portion of the ticket is actually valid until 04:29 on day 3. This was clarified by a very helpful member of this forum who, at the time the post linked to below was written was authoritative on the subject. There is no requirement to travel as far as you can etc.

That said I would not expect a hassle free journey and I absolutely would not rely on this if using a ticket paid for by my employer, it's simply not worth the risk. An additional issue is the Q&As referred to are not in the public domain, as far as I know.

Revised NRCoC​

Have you ever actually tried either of these options? From my experience ticket office staff don't know the answers to any but the most obvious questions. The last time I mentioned the routing guide at one it was clear that the staff member I was talking to had never heard of it. In my area it...
www.railforums.co.uk

Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.

 

[robbeech]

It's a bit of a wild assumption that the only difficulty that would be experienced using such a ticket would be at the Newcastle gate line. I think there is every chance that difficulty would be encountered anywhere beyond Newcastle with any operator involved.

Indeed. Almost 100% of the time. I have need to use this ‘facility’ in a couple of weeks and I have prompted the LNER social media team about it in anticipation. They’ve assured me staff know the rules but I know for a fact it won’t be trouble free. I’m only using LNER here as an example as they are who I have spoken to and who I will be using, but the same applies to every operator.

 

[nitten_travell]

I would suggest an Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off Peak Return starting on 13/12, the return portion will be valid on 16/12. This is £198.60. In addition, on 12/13, find an Edinburgh to Newcastle single for the train at your preferred time. You will find that you have many choices of Advance ticket and the sensibly priced Lumo Only or CrossCountry Only singles.

Thank you everyone for your replies and debate. I think this advice from Starmill will work best.

 

[hkstudent]

Thank you everyone for your replies and debate. I think this advice from Starmill will work best.

It prompts a second question... at work we use a booking system built on Trainline for booking rail tickets. It offers less functionality than other websites. I can't set a "via" station so I can't say "via Newcastle" for the outward journey and so try to engineer a booking on a service to (hopefully) Manchester and then to Cardiff. I really do not like travelling without a booked seat, especially when I hope to use my laptop. Can I take my Off Peak Return to the ticket office at Newcastle and ask to be booked onto a route via Manchester?

You can book your seat at ticket office as long as it is a permitted route. By booking split ticket, you costed the company £41 extra on expenses.

Also, by booking split ticket, for OP's return section, the journey time will jump from 6:30 to a minimum of 7:30 (using Crosscountry) or 8:15 (avoiding crosscountry) due to cannot go via Carlisle for a faster Avanti service.

Another case for why a NPR is needed for faster journeys

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2021 ==

If you wish to avoid (hopefully) minor disputes over ticket validity, as well as Starmill’s earlier mention of buying an additional Edinburgh to Newcastle ticket the previous day, there is also the option to purchase the Anytime Return from Edinburgh to Cardiff Central, which has 5 days of outward validity (at the quite high cost of £424) so your overnight stay isn’t going to be disputed by gateline staff.

With a Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off-Peak Return, shouldn’t be the case as Edinburgh is the origin on the ticket.

Another travel option available to you on the return is CrossCountry from Cardiff to Birmingham then Avanti to Edinburgh. Whilst this does include a portion of CrossCountry, it’s always ran with Turbostars so saves having to travel on a Voyager, although keep in mind it does involve a change at Birmingham New Street.

Yeah, but the problem now is OP is going to split the ticket at Newcastle, which going via Carlisle will not be an option

 

[Starmill]

It's a bit of a wild assumption that the only difficulty that would be experienced using such a ticket would be at the Newcastle gate line. I think there is every chance that difficulty would be encountered anywhere beyond Newcastle with any operator involved.

I think just as you say that an explanation will likely be required at every stage of ticket inspection, as a minimum.

If it reached the point where the person doing the ticket checking decided that they wished to engage in no further conversation about the ticket's validity, and therefore decided to ask the traveller to buy a new ticket from Newcastle to the next station, or if not to provide their name and address for the purposes of invoicing for this fare, the sum demanded could prove very large. Also, no doubt a smaller but non zero number of staff would choose go down the route of alleging that a criminal offence was committed in the use of this ticket from Newcastle and require name and address to be provided in order to serve court papers. If that happened then the OP would in my opinion of course still be entirely innocent of any offence and have already entirely paid their fare due, but they'd be at the point where they would be making that case in court.

 

[30907]

Yeah, but the problem now is OP is going to split the ticket at Newcastle, which going via Carlisle will not be an option

No, the OP is going to start short at NCL on an EDB ticket, paying EDB to NCL separately, as suggested in post #3.

 

[Haywain]

Another case for why a NPR is needed for faster journeys

NPR?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Whenever I am breaking a journey, I always explain to guard on first train what my intentions are and ask the guard to either mark the location where he has checked the ticket or mark it as used up to etc newcastle

Never had an issue doing this, and has been commented on by guards next day that it makes their job a lot easier than having to query a ticket cancelled the previous day

 

[30907]

NPR?

Northern Powerhouse Rail? Though I can't see why it would change the ticketing.

 

[hkstudent]

Northern Powerhouse Rail? Though I can't see why it would change the ticketing.

Reason of mentioning is, the via Pennie route is slower than the via Scotland route

 

[Haywain]

Reason of mentioning is, the via Pennie route is slower than the via Scotland route

But anyone wanting the faster journey won't bother avoiding XC.

 

[redengine]

If you wish to avoid (hopefully) minor disputes over ticket validity, as well as Starmill’s earlier mention of buying an additional Edinburgh to Newcastle ticket the previous day, there is also the option to purchase the Anytime Return from Edinburgh to Cardiff Central, which has 5 days of outward validity (at the quite high cost of £424) so your overnight stay isn’t going to be disputed by gateline staff.

With a Edinburgh to Cardiff Central Off-Peak Return, shouldn’t be the case as Edinburgh is the origin on the ticket.

Another travel option available to you on the return is CrossCountry from Cardiff to Birmingham then Avanti to Edinburgh. Whilst this does include a portion of CrossCountry, it’s always ran with Turbostars so saves having to travel on a Voyager, although keep in mind it does involve a change at Birmingham New Street.

If we're getting into silly money, he could always buy an All-Line Rover for £540 and go via London.

 

[nitten_travell]

If we're getting into silly money, he could always buy an All-Line Rover for £540 and go via London

I would actually have preferred to travel via London but it seems no off peak return exists for that route.

In the end my employer accidentally booked two off peak singles so the total cost was not far off £540 (until I noticed and asked them to rebook as an off peak return).

Thank you to everyone who replied.

 

[30907]

I would actually have preferred to travel via London but it seems no off peak return exists for that route.

No, it doesn't - odd, because there is such a fare to Bristol (set by LNER).
Though of course your employer might have balked at paying the extra

 

[nitten_travell]

No, it doesn't - odd, because there is such a fare to Bristol (set by LNER).
Though of course your employer might have balked at paying the extra

Given that they accidentally spent twice as much on two singles and nobody batted an eyelid then perhaps it would have been OK! So much for a system put in place to ensure good value for the business...