Could we see more examples of Better bus / rail integration?

[Bald Rick]

In the (many) threads about reopening old railways, there are many suggestions that a far more effective use of cash would be to make bus / rail integration better, with through ticketing, better connections etc.

Transport for Wales seem to have done just that for one of the ‘old chestnut’ reopening proposals, Carmathen - Aberystwyth. Albeit in a limited way. If you want to travel from South Wakes to Aberaeron, Lampeter or Aberystwyth, or vice verse, you can now buy one ticket for the whole journey. I hope this is successful, and that it is expanded to other stations / routes too.

Single ticket for rail and bus between South Wales and Aberystwyth launched | RailBusinessDaily

Transport for Wales (TfW) is working in partnership with TrawsCymru to enable customers to travel between South Wales and Aberystwyth with a single Transport for Wales (TfW) is working in partnership with TrawsCymru to enable customers to travel between South Wales and Aberystwyth with a single...

news.railbusinessdaily.com

Transport for Wales (TfW) is working in partnership with TrawsCymru to enable customers to travel between South Wales and Aberystwyth with a single ticket, saving both money and time.

The partnership has launched integrated ticketing on TfW rail journeys from South Wales and Aberystwyth, and TrawsCymru’s T1 bus service that connects Carmarthen with Aberystwyth via Aberaeron and Lampeter, with additional stops for non-integrated ticket bus only customers between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth.

Instead of customers needing to access different websites and apps to purchase tickets for travel across the different transport modes, they will now be able to buy a single ticket that will cover both the TfW and TrawsCymru T1 elements of their journey from the TfW website, app and selected station ticket offices.

 

[ABB125]

Sounds like a good idea. I wonder how many people will moan that a bus isn't reliable/can be withdrawn at short notice etc?

there are many suggestions that a far more effective use of cash would be to make bus / rail integration better

How many of those "many suggestions" are actually you?

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder how many people will moan that a bus isn't reliable/can be withdrawn at short notice etc?

Good point. In this case, there have been buses between Carmarthenand Aberystwyth for as long as I can remember, so I think they’re pretty safe.

How many of those "many suggestions" are actually you?

A modest number

 

[tbtc]

I wonder how many people will moan that a bus isn't reliable/can be withdrawn at short notice etc?

I wonder how many people thought that heavy rail services were protected from such chopping/changing, and would never be withdrawn at short notice... but have had their steadfast view changed by the past couple of years (e.g. most recently Cross Country cutting a number of daily services at fairly short notice, but all of the driver shortages and Covid changes etc)... buses are not unique in this regard.

 

[adrock1976]

Some I can think of where buses could be integrated with the railway ticketing system (some are tourist attractions) are:

Stoke-on-Trent and Uttoxeter - Alton Towers (also Leek, as the original Stoke - Leek formation was a curvaceous route and not short)

Tamworth to Drayton Manor

Long Buckby and/or Northampton - Althorpe Park (perhaps @AOwen would know more about bus links to Althorpe Park than I do?)

Wolverhampton - Bridgnorth and Ironbridge

Walsall and/or Wolverhampton - Lichfield and Burton-on-Trent (depends upon whether the Walsall - Brownhills - Lichfield line ever gets reopened, the Cross City Line extended from Lichfield to Burton, or whether used for Midland Metro trams)

Northampton - Bedford or Leicester

Northampton - Peterborough (I believe Peterborough was once in Northamptonshire until 1974, then became part of Cambridgeshire)

Rugby and Hillmorton Crick Road (when reopened) - Daventry

 

[zwk500]

It's not just about integrated tickets, but also about having good connectivity and interchange between modes. Things like not having to hang around for 25 minutes, or walk through to the far end of town.

That being said, Buckingham to Bicester and MK, and Hailsham to Polegate would be valuable additions to an integrated network that will never justify train links.

 

[A0]

Some I can think of where buses could be integrated with the railway ticketing system (some are tourist attractions) are:

Stoke-on-Trent and Uttoxeter - Alton Towers (also Leek, as the original Stoke - Leek formation was a curvaceous route and not short)

Tamworth to Drayton Manor

Long Buckby and/or Northampton - Althorpe Park (perhaps @AOwen would know more about bus links to Althorpe Park than I do?)

Wolverhampton - Bridgnorth and Ironbridge

Walsall and/or Wolverhampton - Lichfield and Burton-on-Trent (depends upon whether the Walsall - Brownhills - Lichfield line ever gets reopened, the Cross City Line extended from Lichfield to Burton, or whether used for Midland Metro trams)

Northampton - Bedford or Leicester

Northampton - Peterborough (I believe Peterborough was once in Northamptonshire until 1974, then became part of Cambridgeshire)

Rugby and Hillmorton Crick Road (when reopened) - Daventry

I don't think Althorp is much of a tourist attraction nowadays - the A428 (the main road the entrance is on) has the Stagecoach 96 run along there which goes between Rugby and Northampton, whilst it serves Long Buckby, it doesn't serve the station there.

If Althorp reckon there's that much demand, they'd be better off arranging a taxi-bus connection from Long Buckby - it's not like the Spencer family couldn't afford it.

Of the others you've suggested:

Drayton Manor - I don't think is a big enough attraction from a national perspective, it's certainly not as well known outside the Midlands as Alton Towers is and Tamworth station doesn't have particularly good links to most of the Midlands.

Northampton - Bedford, Northampton - Leicester and Northampton - Peterborough all have direct buses between them, the 41, X7 and X4 respectively. Not sure what through ticketing would offer on those ?

Bridgnorth and Ironbridge are *much* closer to Telford than Wolverhampton - not sure why you're suggesting Wolverhampton? And Walsall's even further away.

 

[Ken H]

I made the point of the cross Bradford rail link thread that the railways were active in buses before nationalisation. They were involved in joint omnibus committees in Todmorden, Halifax, Huddersfield and Sheffield, for example. They were also involved with out of town buses operated by Tilling and BET, and you can see the remnants of that in 1960's/1970's timetables, with train departure lists in bus timetables.
The only way this would work is if the railway actually operated buses as an add on to their network, so as to serve places off the network, or to facilitate awkward rail journies. With through fares and guaranteed connections where necessary. Obviously with a stop at the railway station.

 

[DelW]

It's not just about integrated tickets, but also about having good connectivity and interchange between modes. Things like not having to hang around for 25 minutes, or walk through to the far end of town.

Indeed so. There are places in mid Wales where a 25 minute connection would be remarkably convenient. An hour or more is not unusual between trains and Trawscymru buses (both funded by TfW).
There seems to be no attempt to coordinate timetables between modes.
Newtown is just one example where the bus station and rail station are a long way apart, and there is no visible attempt to link the timetables.

 

[HSTEd]

I've always wondered if you could lay out bus stops like they were rail platforms on one side of the station.

Possibly with full length shelters and sliding doors at the bus stopping positions.

 

[NoRoute]

I've always wondered if you could lay out bus stops like they were rail platforms on one side of the station.

Possibly with full length shelters and sliding doors at the bus stopping positions.

You find those arrangements at many bus stations but I've never seen that at a bus stop. I'd think more of a priority is bringing rail platforms upto a reasonable standard, with roofing over the platforms at every station.

But back on the rail-bus integration, a good starting point would be looking at how other countries and regions have solved this problem and copy them. Over in Germany, in the Rhein Ruhr region they have the VRR and you can get a ticket covering rail, bus and the tram network covering a whole region including many sizeable cities.

Verkehrsverbund Rhein-Ruhr - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kermit]

Railway stations have gradually expunged road vehicles over the years (think what Paddington or Edinburgh Waverley were like in the 70s? - parcels vans and taxis, certainly). Imagine if buses (probably electric ones) were allowed back in, and information about their departures was included on the electronic train departure boards?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Railway stations have gradually expunged road vehicles over the years (think what Paddington or Edinburgh Waverley were like in the 70s? - parcels vans and taxis, certainly). Imagine if buses (probably electric ones) were allowed back in, and information about their departures was included on the electronic train departure boards?

To be fair, until relatively recently in various towns and cities in the north of England, South Wales or the West Country, it was normal to walk into a railway station and find it full of bus vehicles. It’s just that they were rail mounted and masquerading as the local train service

 

[Llandudno]

This idea is far too sensible for it to actually happen, and of course, routes can be added in a matter of months rather than decades for a rail re/opening!

But to make it work properly and for passengers to trust the bus connection then the following criteria should be met:

Bus should pick up from directly outside the station, 15-20 minute connections
Routes and basic timetables guaranteed for at least 5 years
Bus should have some rail branding on the side and front of the vehicle
Buses advertised in rail timetables and NRE journey planners
PIS screens inside the station showing bus departures included on the train departure board
Simple through/add on tickets for the bus
All significant towns/large villages served by the bus have a decent sized bus shelter, help point and PIS screen, so the quality of bus stop and live information is comparable with a rural station, larger towns could have a TVM!

In essence the equivalent of a rural branch line!

Initially, I don’t think there is a need for hundreds of them, but a few obvious ones spring to mind:
Wisbech - March
Penrith - Keswick
Minehead - Taunton
Bangor - Caernarfon
Wrexham/Ruabon - Barmouth
Matlock - Buxton
Malton - Whitby
Mold - Chester
Plus some opportunities from the new Okehampton station

 

[A0]

Initially, I don’t think there is a need for hundreds of them, but a few obvious ones spring to mind:
Wisbech - March
Penrith - Keswick
Minehead - Taunton
Bangor - Caernarfon
Wrexham/Ruabon - Barmouth
Matlock - Buxton
Malton - Whitby
Mold - Chester
Plus some opportunities from the new Okehampton station

You heretic - most of those are high up on the National Crayon Championship's reopening list. Anything less than full re-railing together with a regular stopping service, long distance expresses and tons of heavy freight will be regarded as a sellout and see you being burned at the stake!

 

[Ken H]

Anyone remember Barry Doe with his bus-rail guides? He thought someone asking about getting to Ripon at a rail enquiry office shuold be able to get times for the bus from Harrogate. The NBC and BR were both publically owned so not an unreasonable ask.
His bus timetable directory 1989 is on timetable world.

Timetable World Viewer

timetableworld.com

(Link is to image of Does directory of bus timetables 1989)

 

[kermit]

You heretic - most of those are high up on the National Crayon Championship's reopening list. Anything less than full re-railing together with a regular stopping service, long distance expresses and tons of heavy freight will be regarded as a sellout and see you being burned at the stake!

And every station should have a Goods Yard, and a Crane!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sounds a bit like a resurrection of the RailLinks of the early 2000s. It might actually work this time provided the relevant destinations are in the planners and e-tickets can be sold for them on a through basis with rail style protections.

 

[edwin_m]

Railway stations have gradually expunged road vehicles over the years (think what Paddington or Edinburgh Waverley were like in the 70s? - parcels vans and taxis, certainly). Imagine if buses (probably electric ones) were allowed back in, and information about their departures was included on the electronic train departure boards?

I don't think anywhere had buses on the actual concourse. Buses should be in a convenient but separated area just outside the station. If nothing else, the bus isn't going to be fast or punctual if it has to find its way past people milling around on the platform. At Waverley where the cab rank was between the ticket office and many of the platforms, and I remember it as a horrible place.

 

[Llandudno]

This sounds a bit like a resurrection of the RailLinks of the early 2000s. It might actually work this time provided the relevant destinations are in the planners and e-tickets can be sold for them on a through basis with rail style protections.

Absolutely!

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You heretic - most of those are high up on the National Crayon Championship's reopening list. Anything less than full re-railing together with a regular stopping service, long distance expresses and tons of heavy freight will be regarded as a sellout and see you being burned at the stake!

Yep, with station masters, porters, parcel office, tea room etc…!!!

 

[kermit]

I don't think anywhere had buses on the actual concourse. Buses should be in a convenient but separated area just outside the station. If nothing else, the bus isn't going to be fast or punctual if it has to find its way past people milling around on the platform. At Waverley where the cab rank was between the ticket office and many of the platforms, and I remember it as a horrible place.

Well, it just goes to show....I thought it was vibrant, exciting, and wonderful!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Absolutely!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2021 ==


Yep, with station masters, porters, parcel office, tea room etc…!!!

Count me in for more station tea rooms!

 

[johntea]

I remember many years ago there was a bus service right outside Derby station that took you to Alton Towers and vice versa

Looks like it still runs (from Nottingham too)

https://www.altontowers.com/media/dq4prdau/x52.pdf

The issues I guess are if your morning train is delayed you're a bit out of luck, and you only get 6 hours in the park (although the rollercoaster ride of the roads getting there is the main attraction of course!)

 

[RT4038]

Until the funding of bus and rail services come from the same integrated pot, there will be no bus/rail integration other than mere tokenism.

Tokenism = politicians thinking there is integration when in fact there is not for practical purposes.

 

[NoRoute]

Until the funding of bus and rail services come from the same integrated pot, there will be no bus/rail integration other than mere tokenism.

Tokenism = politicians thinking there is integration when in fact there is not for practical purposes.

Got to disagree because if you go back into the distant history of the railways, when they were separate private companies with no public funding at all, even way back then there was a system which allowed for movement of people and goods across different railway companies with fares being divided between the respective companies. They established an organisation to manage it, Railway Clearing House.

Now in 2021 with IT capabilities beyond the wildest imagination of a Victorian railway manager, it is certainly possible to have such a clearing house function for a combined rail, bus and tram network. Indeed looking outside this little island of ours, there's countries which already have scheme like this, like the German VRR system I mentioned above.

Railway Clearing House - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RT4038]

Got to disagree because if you go back into the distant history of the railways, when they were separate private companies with no public funding at all, even way back then there was a system which allowed for movement of people and goods across different railway companies with fares being divided between the respective companies. They established an organisation to manage it, Railway Clearing House.

Now in 2021 with IT capabilities beyond the wildest imagination of a Victorian railway manager, it is certainly possible to have such a clearing house function for a combined rail, bus and tram network. Indeed looking outside this little island of ours, there's countries which already have scheme like this, like the German VRR system I mentioned above.

Railway Clearing House - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The German VRR system is funding of bus and rail services from the same integrated pot.

The Railway Clearing House came from a completely different era of fare setting. Bus services have never been included, even in regulated days. If both the bus and rail industry wanted such an arrangement now under the current financial framework they could set it up. But they have not and there are good reasons why:

The issue today being that bus companies are unable to finance (and therefore do not want to be) conveying multi modal passengers where they only get a small proportion of fare revenue for their portion of the journey, quite aside from the additional costs of connecting buses with trains (diverting/extending via stations and additional vehicles/crews for the inefficiencies inherent in fitting in with rail connecting times). From the point of view of increasing public transport use overall I would suggest it is essential to have integrated services and multi-modal ticketing, but the funding framework of bus versus rail transport will need addressing first for it to have any chance of coming about.

 

[JonathanH]

Bus should pick up from directly outside the station, 15-20 minute connections

15-20 minute connections would be seen as quite poor by some people who might consider integration as almost 'ready to go' on arrival no matter how long the train is delayed.

 

[RT4038]

15-20 minute connections would be seen as quite poor by some people who might consider integration as almost 'ready to go' on arrival no matter how long the train is delayed.

There are quite a few stations where it would be almost impossible to determine which train the bus was connecting with anyway? My home town os a junction of 4 lines, with trains 3 per hour on one leg, 2 on 2 of the legs and 1ph on the fourth. Only the 1ph is a regular interval. Which train is the half or hourly bus service going to connecting with?

 

[DelW]

Until the funding of bus and rail services come from the same integrated pot, there will be no bus/rail integration other than mere tokenism.

TfW local trains and Trawscymru buses are both funded by the Welsh government, but there seems to be little or no attempt at integrating them. As I mentioned above, one example is at Newtown, where the T4 route doesn't go near the railway station.

 

[RT4038]

TfW local trains and Trawscymru buses are both funded by the Welsh government, but there seems to be little or no attempt at integrating them. As I mentioned above, one example is at Newtown, where the T4 route doesn't go near the railway station.

Are TfW local trains and Trawscymru buses funded from the same integrated pot, with common management of the pot and 'one whole public transport' as their remit? I suspect that currently this pot is , in practical terms, managed separately between train and bus, even if the money is ultimately coming from the same place.

I did not, for one moment, suggest that funding both bus and rail from the same integrated pot would definitely get integration other than mere tokenism; but if there is not funding from the same integrated pot then definitely there won't be.

At least in the TfW/Trawscymru case there is the first steps towards enabling this integration, even if it is yet to happen in practical terms. Most other places in the UK the groundwork is far from being laid.